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Is the Vatican’s Response to Airstrikes Against Islamic State a Major Policy Reversal?

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posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 06:38 AM
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originally posted by: SLAYER69

I'd really like to hear your opinion/take on the matter. If you disagree with current actions taken by all those involved please speak out and offer your thoughts on what should be done or undertaken to bring this situation to a peaceful conclusion.

To be honest, when I hear the leader of one Religion talking about this sort of thing especially in the ME makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up and I take notice given the long history of not only sectarian violence but previous crusades and modern military actions undertaken over ever decreasing natural resources.

Will we see some sort of outright new Holy war?

Thoughts



It's not really a change in policy. The Church has always held the concept of a "just war" - that sometimes, judicious use of force can prevent an even greater suffering. What is unusual is that the Church seems to be accepting that the traditional non-violent methods of bringing pressure to bear are not going to succeed and that the threshold for physical force has been met.

I believe that the Church is not supporting all out war, but rather those actions (and only those actions) necessary to relieve the immediate threat. The judicious use of minimum force.

Of course, there is an argument that the "minimum use of force to relieve the threat" probably does require all out war, but I think we're a long way from the Church calling for a new crusade.




posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 06:50 AM
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a reply to: SLAYER69

Nothing like a good ole crusade to get the ball rolling on world war 3 is there? I guess it wasn't happening fast enough for everyone's taste.

Because seriously, you turn this into an actual crusade... and you will have it. A very very messy world war 3 at that...



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 06:57 AM
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originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: SLAYER69

Nothing like a good ole crusade to get the ball rolling on world war 3 is there? I guess it wasn't happening fast enough for everyone's taste.

Because seriously, you turn this into an actual crusade... and you will have it. A very very messy world war 3 at that...




It would be very bad, but i do think something needs to be done. I'm sure we could intervene against ISIS, without turning the conflict into a 'crusade'. Hell, i'm sure the majority of Muslims would support an armed intervention against ISIS...

That said, i do not expect the Vatican to stand up and start calling for the heads of every ISIS disbeliever, and declaring a crusade against the 'Islamic Caliphate'. That would be outrageous.

I don't see a problem with the Vatican approving of targeted airstrikes.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 07:02 AM
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This does add a whole new wrinkle to consider with ISIS. I know a good number on ATS treat spirituality and religious Faith with all the seriousness of magic tricks, but I take it all very seriously and see real meaning in this, on that level.

A good many people are calling ISIS evil and mean what they say when that term is used. The attitude of the Pope on this gives me a moment of pause with the history of the Church and direct action or advocating it in the past.

Could it be that the Church has come to look upon ISIS as more than merely the bad idea formed by man alone? Could they honestly see evil here in the Catholic sense of that word? I think it's possible and something to keep in the back of our minds as we watch all this develop over time.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 07:13 AM
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a reply to: daaskapital

The majority would probably not approve after learning lessons from asking for help... seriously. Even most moderates, while believing ISIS needs taken care of, also know it's not in any of our best interests for it to be Europeans and Americans...

It needs to be us... it's the only way to get rid of them. Otherwise, you only serve to create further growth of the group, rather than its destruction hon - no matter how good your intentions are.

That said, we haven't quite learned to work together yet. Your guys' racism is along lines of color or nationality, our racism is along religious lines. But it's racism none-the-less... we just aren't generally a different color. lol.

ISIS will probably be a driving force to force us to learn to let go of some of that and begin to work together... but until we learn, it is mainly our deaths we face.... the Christians are given options to leave or pay a tax, and christian nations will take them in... they will be okay.

It is shia who are facing the brunt of the atrocities... we are not given the option to live, unless we simply escape or die trying. Pagans are in the same boat as shia but they are getting help from groups too... Christians and Jews are not in this boat. Sunni are even given the option to join them, although many are not... In Mosul many Sunni died standing up for the Christians.. I thought it commendable of them - especially when they didn't have to (Hence my avi...)

But for right now, we are holding our own in general. And if we can find the way to come together strong.. we will win hands down.

To begin to call this a crusade and a religious war of the Christians against Muslims (ISIS or no because you know in Air strikes and the like civilians die too) then ISIS and the extremists will win.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 07:15 AM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


originally posted by: daaskapital
i do not expect the Vatican to stand up and start calling for the heads of every ISIS disbeliever, and declaring a crusade against the 'Islamic Caliphate'.


Yep. Couldn't happen. The Vatican has no army. Heck, the tiny Swiss Guard is about all they have and they are really just the popes personal bodyguards. Even if the Vatican called for a war against radical Islam, it wouldn't work because most Catholics really don't listen to what the Vatican wants anyways.

Now here is what the pope REALLY said about ISIS ...

Pope Francis Calls on World to Find an 'Effective Political Solution' to Isis

Ya'll see that? Effective Political Solution. There isn't one, of course. They (ISIS) are radical nutters. But the pope didn't call for war and didn't sanction war. He said 'POLITICAL SOLUTION'. That's the opposite of war.

My personal thought is that ISIS needs to be blasted to Hell where they belong. And I think it should be the Saudis and those who live in the neighborhood who should do it. (which they won't). But the Vatican has called for diplomacy and political solutions. So no one needs to worry about a modern day crusade coming out of the Vatican.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.


edit on 8/15/2014 by FlyersFan because: Put in (ISIS)



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 07:35 AM
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originally posted by: SLAYER69

Will we see some sort of outright new Holy war?

Thoughts



SLAYER69, there is a massive amount of unbalance energy/behavior being felt here on EA*RTH right now.
This unbalanced energy is not playing favorite to ANY land mass region it appears.
It is SAD, for all the intelligence humanity is in possession of this is being allowed to progress.
Is it associated w/ many losing what is considered FAITH-Belief in higher powers? 1 is not sure.
It does seem however the more many lose the interest and then ability to have faith it allows opportunity for other energy to take hold of the many who are no longer in contact-placing many in the potential grasp of energy they cannot even see anymore because if you deny the LORD you ignore the counter.
This allows the "counter" to LURE many into its grasp further as they DEMONstrate more and more EVOL acts of species self hatred.
LOWERING the frequency of many further into the counters grasp-
And the more demonic acts done - ignored which allow more demonic acts to continue and grow further pulls more and more Souls in...

Mankind may be being tested in many ways right now from the west to the east. 1 knows you see the energy as do many others.

During these test periods ignorance WILL either be culled or allowed to take over. Providing fertile ground for the unimaginable to occur. Again SAD my friend for this species IS intelligent enough to know better, but drags its feet at the wrong times.

With some of the murder-terror-extreme fear DEMONstrations observed by those who think its ok to behead children-use others as shields & murder innocent civilians... From east to west hemisphere?
Eventually a balance WILL be required.

A crusade/holy war against Islam is somewhat short sited just is a race war. Looking further its death -pain -ignorance -sadness distributed among mankind overall.

This is signifying the energy involved and if many do not catch on it can spiral out of control.
W/ large amounts of bloodshed and Soul/Spirit/Internal ENERGY displaced-relocated (consider the acts done of ignorance and where it would send a human soul)

And so it automatically calls in Metaphysical & Physical ENERGIES to EA*RTH observing from? both benevolent to assist on planet in flesh and off with Soul/Spirit/Internal energy sent
and malevolent to trick-feed-feast here on planet in flesh and off.
And if mankind does not act MATURE many may be plunged into the kingdom they deny exist as they deny a LORD or its counter/tester? of souls...

Sort of metaphysical (IDH or EDH/UDH) & physical ETH related Benevolent and Malevolent. The behaviors are calling them here.
Ever seen the movie LEGION



The Vatican is or may be seeing what is being done. And their religious data may help them to better understand what is going on more then many may wish to acknowledge.
So do they speak up and take the heat for doing so or sit by and allow the counter THEY KNOW EXIST take over?

WE HAVE TO ALL* STAY STRONG in this sector of the WHOLE
Arc angels were designed to assist in peace and as I say from time to time the ANGELS have to have bigger claws then the demons. BALANCE

And 1 shall conclude with that.

GOD BLESS US ALL*
ALL religions seeking to lead many to the metaphysical home "HEAVEN"
and may those entities embedded within various parts of humanity not just Islam seeking to degrade & cause further harm find the MIRRORS that are being polished w/ blood from their demonic acts of ignorance.
AN ALLseeIng for another...

NAMASTE
LOVE LIGHT ETERNIA*******

edit on 8/15/14 by Ophiuchus 13 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 07:41 AM
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a reply to: Ophiuchus 13


edit on 15-8-2014 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 08:08 AM
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originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: SLAYER69

Nothing like a good ole crusade to get the ball rolling on world war 3 is there? I guess it wasn't happening fast enough for everyone's taste.

Because seriously, you turn this into an actual crusade... and you will have it. A very very messy world war 3 at that...




Nah, if all of The West went balls deep, Islamic State would be over and done with very quickly and replaced with local radicals who are content to stay in their own playground. A restructuring like the end of WWI would have them all confused for another century.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 08:17 AM
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The catholic church also backed the knights Templar once upon a time,
So I'd say this is pretty much the normal action against Islam.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 08:49 AM
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From the moment we are born we are indoctrinated into believing that violence is the portal to solve the world's problems and lead to a better life.
My first memories of history lessons is how killing native Americans was basically okay, as it allowed our country to be settled by people who would bring a 'better' lifestyle to the nation, and stop those 'waring redskins'.
Hitler murdered millions. We stopped the war, aright.....Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Until people are raised to believe in something besides death being the road to peace, nothing will change. Our children,and future generations,could benefit from learning true history lessons: violence actions will evoke a violent response.
People are taught what to think their entire lives - by the education and religious systems, news media, music, television, politics - we're all brainwashed into believing what the very few at the top want us to believe. The human mind is capable of so much better......



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 09:05 AM
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a reply to: SLAYER69


Will we see some sort of outright new Holy war?

I'd hope that in 2014 we would be beyond that...
But the heart wants what it wants...
Mindfully, it probably will lead to something of the sort...

With all that said something does need to be done...
What exactly is up to the strategists & tacticians of many Military's...
& I think it's time China or Russia put a foot down like the US is attempting to do!!!


Peace Slayer!!!



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 09:09 AM
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a reply to: nugget1

Some people are simply evil in every sense of the word. They stand opposed to anything that is good and decent, and they are - in every behavior - an abomination. There is no hope for them, no cure, no amount of love to change them. Serial killers, murderers etc. They will never be "normal".

Humans, for millennia have found the only way to save ourselves from them, is to kill them... remove our presence from theirs, permanently. It is called self defense, and in a survival of the species mentality, this is what we have done. Otherwise their kind would wipe us out completely.

Their is nothing wrong, or inherently evil, with defending one's self for the continuity of decent life. That said, we must understand what constitutes self defense and practice only that - otherwise we are no better than them. We must know, the limit of God's limits upon us.
edit on 15-8-2014 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 09:12 AM
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a reply to: FlyersFan

Thank you for that. Really I do... and I pray - fervently - that we can find a way to bring peace and grow up a lot too.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 09:19 AM
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originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: daaskapital

The majority would probably not approve after learning lessons from asking for help... seriously. Even most moderates, while believing ISIS needs taken care of, also know it's not in any of our best interests for it to be Europeans and Americans...


Fair point.

I do not have any first hand knowledge, as i haven't served in a military capacity in the Middle-East. But i have seen some of the results of Western intervention there... I'd say that the only good to come out of Western intervention was semi-autonomy for the Kurds of Iraq...


It needs to be us... it's the only way to get rid of them. Otherwise, you only serve to create further growth of the group, rather than its destruction hon - no matter how good your intentions are.


I understand your perspective.

I'm not calling for all out war between the West/moderate Muslims and ISIS. I just think that it would be good for Western states to further aid those on the ground, who are already doing the fighting: The Syrian Arab Army; the Iraqi Army; the Shia Militias; The Kurds...


That said, we haven't quite learned to work together yet. Your guys' racism is along lines of color or nationality, our racism is along religious lines. But it's racism none-the-less... we just aren't generally a different color. lol.

ISIS will probably be a driving force to force us to learn to let go of some of that and begin to work together... but until we learn, it is mainly our deaths we face.... the Christians are given options to leave or pay a tax, and christian nations will take them in... they will be okay.

It is shia who are facing the brunt of the atrocities... we are not given the option to live, unless we simply escape or die trying. Pagans are in the same boat as shia but they are getting help from groups too... Christians and Jews are not in this boat. Sunni are even given the option to join them, although many are not... In Mosul many Sunni died standing up for the Christians.. I thought it commendable of them - especially when they didn't have to (Hence my avi...)


Indeed. There is no doubt that the Shia Muslims and other sects such as the Yazidis have it the worst. While i am tolerant of all religions, it does get to me to see the outrage over Christian deaths, knowing that they are given the choice of life, when others are not.

I do hope the states of the Middle-East band together to fight ISIS, but it seems that Islam as a whole is going to have to put aside the differences of Shia/Sunni in order to defeat them. While i do not know much about it all, i know that the Middle-East as a whole will have difficulty in flourishing while the Shia/Sunni divide and Western interventionism exist.


But for right now, we are holding our own in general. And if we can find the way to come together strong.. we will win hands down.


Exactly. I just hope it isn't too late.


To begin to call this a crusade and a religious war of the Christians against Muslims (ISIS or no because you know in Air strikes and the like civilians die too) then ISIS and the extremists will win.


Indeed. To call this a crusade is allowing oneself to take a narrow perspective of the situation. This is not a religious crusade of Christianity vs Islam. It is time everyone stand together to fight the evil in this world.

Thank you.
edit on 15-8-2014 by daaskapital because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 09:22 AM
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originally posted by: TinfoilTP

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: SLAYER69

Nothing like a good ole crusade to get the ball rolling on world war 3 is there? I guess it wasn't happening fast enough for everyone's taste.

Because seriously, you turn this into an actual crusade... and you will have it. A very very messy world war 3 at that...




Nah, if all of The West went balls deep, Islamic State would be over and done with very quickly and replaced with local radicals who are content to stay in their own playground. A restructuring like the end of WWI would have them all confused for another century.


That is a very arrogant and narrow-minded position to take...

Of course, i would expect nothing less from you......

Things are never as simple as they may seem.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 09:24 AM
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Muslims have been taking over Christian areas for a thousand years. North Africa was Christian and Jewish only a thousand years ago, now Muslim. Turkey too, like much of the Middle East. Even Baghdad was half Jewish with much of the rest being Christian only in the 1940's. Now going the usual route. Lots of them here in the UK too but invited over to run the textile mills (which closed down straight away lol) and now living in their own Islamic communities often flying the IS flag. Many good tolerant Muslims, but being honest and realistic the Pope is seeing it as it is, there is a slight issue with them relentlessly taking over Christian lands.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 09:32 AM
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a reply to: imod02

You talk about extremists with an agenda of fear. Or is Westboro's hatred and violence towards homosexuality, indicative of all Christianity? That is what you are implying. That all Muslims are extremists.

You may want to look at this theory in depth.

It is also time to discuss appointing our own Truth and Reconciliation commission


edit on 15-8-2014 by Not Authorized because: (no reason given)

edit on 15-8-2014 by Not Authorized because: (no reason given)

edit on 15-8-2014 by Not Authorized because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 10:13 AM
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originally posted by: Not Authorized
a reply to: imod02

You talk about extremists with an agenda of fear. Or is Westboro's hatred and violence towards homosexuality, indicative of all Christianity? That is what you are implying. That all Muslims are extremists.

You may want to look at this theory in depth.

It is also time to discuss appointing our own Truth and Reconciliation commission


At no time did I say or imply that all muslems are extremists, but one sign of extremism is the seeing of things that are not there and feeling of been attacked by text or otherwise that does not exist in real life. Muslems rioted all over the world when they felt insulted by a cartoon, but I dont see any rioting about what ISIS is doing.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 10:15 AM
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a reply to: imod02

No room for propaganda? You still trust our media? The propaganda ban was repealed. Could you show me the law that requires our "news", who are just paid actors reading from a teleprompter, must be accurate?
edit on 15-8-2014 by Not Authorized because: (no reason given)



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