Do you think you are free?

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: butcherguy
So what are you going to do exactly to change it then?
*Edit*
Whining about stuff on an internet forum doesn't really help you out of your apparent slavery does it?

Apparently more than you will do to change it.
EH?
Won't go into details, but I may not be changing it.... but I may be a little more free than you, even if we are neighbors.

Who is whining???

a reply to: grainofsand

How about our ancestors fought for our freedoms which have been chipped away at and eroded over time, so the corrupt elite can maintain their status and protect themselves from getting whats coming to them? I hate the attitude you have, sure we do have it better than other nations, which is why we should be fighting to restore our freedoms, rather than ending up on the same level as those nations. Complacency and apathy is our downfall.

Sure there is no such thing as real freedom, because no matter how you look at it, we are always a slave to something.

a reply to: Firefly_

Do you really believe that there has been a point in history when the average person has been more free than now?

a reply to: Firefly_
Nothing I disagree with there, however you neglected to say what you are actually doing about it other than whining on an internet forum.
At least I am honestly stating I am apathetic while my current perception of freedom fits into what I think is a decent life in the UK. I prefer a perception of democracy over mad max style gang rule any day.
You criticise my apathy and yet raise no examples of what you are actually doing to free yourself from this apparent slavery...aside from bleating about it on ATS of course.

a reply to: butcherguy
I'm self employed and live a cash based lifestyle, not even on the electoral roll for over a decade. Oh, and I have no debts or credit cards etc.
I have zero involvement with any government agencies and pretty much live an unfettered life as I choose, yep, I'm free enough for my liking, even if I am claimed to be a subject of the crown by some of the more irrational US members who frequent this forum.
Perhaps where you live it is all oppression and tyranny but I don't recognise that world where I live right now.

Less than 150 years ago blacks could be owned in the United states.
Less than 100 years ago women could not vote in the United states.
They might feel a little more free today don't you think?

Do I think I'm free?

Yes, as a matter of fact I do. I have choices that many people in the world do not. Don't pretend otherwise.

Is it perfect? Not hardly.

I would dearly love to pay less in the way of taxes... But the fault there lies with me, and others like me, who've allowed the govt. to get out of control.

As for societal laws? A society requires rules that protect everyone. It's up to us to make sure they don't go overboard. So any problems there are also our fault.

Are we free? Yes. As free as we might be? No.

originally posted by: butcherguy

originally posted by: demus
there are two possible answers (

more actually):

1. We are not free

2. It is called civilization

It is possible to be civilized and free to a much greater degree than we are today.

I agree it is possible to be civilized and free to a much greater degree than today but like somebody already mentioned: can you provide a moment in time, historic period where average "subject - citizen" had been more free than today?

what happened is that the slave masters realized slaves are more effective when they're free/"free".

originally posted by: johnb
Most of us seem to live in what many claim are free societies but we clearly are not.

If you think you are free try one of the following harmless acts:

1. Walk naked in public - we are the only creatures on the planet who can be locked up for doing this (once we are a certain age anyway)

2. Make a fire and start cooking your dinner - again depending on your location you will be in violation of all sorts of local and national laws

3. Build yourself a shelter/home to live in - so many laws around this

4. Sing a bawdy or rude song as you walk down the street especially late at night - again potential lock up for breach of the peace or whatever

That's a few off the top of my head but you get the idea and we are taught that we live in a free society

So basically, you want to be able to walk naked in public singing at the top of your lungs? That seems a pretty shallow desire.

the days of going anywhere and being free are long gone, today you can only be free in your own mind. (except for a handful of isolated parts of the globe)

For the people talking recent history, you know once upon a time many many years ago (prior to the industrial revolution) women in some cultures were able to be land owners and even fight alongside the men, others considered it a right of passage to go to another clan and steal their cattle without killing anyone.

Heck once upon a time... you screw up get a bad name you could travel to another place and start over without any baggage following you.

In many ways we are far more constricted now than they were 500-1000 years ago.

Lets see ..
1. did at beach in france.
2.cook over open fire couple times a week .. fish always tastes better cooked over a fire
3.took me two years using traditional japanese building techniques to build both my house and clinic - no permits .. paperwork or any of the idiocy of that nature out here in the borderlands ..
4.done that many times - in china the police laughed and gave me a ride back to sons house .. in tokyo got applause from police after night out singing on way back to hotel .. in kyoto was given ride home to sons house and the police sang along ..
5. no bank account .. no credit cards refuse to be slave to banks theyre worse than yakuza ..
6. no property taxes
7. no busybody annoying neighbors out in boonieville ..

Could go on .. but will leave it at saying best thing I did was walk away from that cesspool people call "civilisation" ..

a reply to: seagull

Not surprisingly, I agree completely!

I think it all depends on how one defines "free". I'm not free to kill someone, but that's OK. I'm not free to do anything I want, but I am still free to a GREAT extent and very grateful to be.

Sorry, someone had to do it...


...enough Scottish threads are polluted with this silliness so I thought I'd do it myself this one time.

a reply to: johnb

A homeless man who causes no trouble is free, he pays no taxes and feeds on the leftovers we leave in the bins. Walk out of your house and live on the streets.... Then your be free .

a reply to: Lompyt
I spent nearly 6 months of my life sleeping on the streets many years ago.
I prefer the 'freedom' I have right now, choosing if I want to work or not and coming home to a nice roof over my head.
I didn't work today because I couldn't be arsed and didn't need to, I'm self employed, live a cash only lifestyle, have no debts or credit cards, and don't watch TV.
Yep, my freedom now is much better than my freedom when I was on the streets.

I read a LOT on this forum from folks bent out of shape because they think “freedom” in a “free” society should mean literal, absolute and total freedom to do whatever they want to do. They whine about how we’re abusing the constitution and violating the priciples espoused by our all-knowing, all-seeing, “larger than life itself” founding fathers, who surely intended for America to be an “anything goes”, “throw caution to the wind”, “if it feels good do it” kinda state. Man, those dudes had it goin’, and then Obama came along to f--- it all up. Yeah, let’s go ahead and place the blame where it belongs: it’s Obama’s fault. God, I sure do miss the days when it was cool to fornicate on the neighbor’s front porch, and then go grocery shopping in the nude.

Sorry guys, but freedom is a relative thing, and it always has been. Even Stone Age groups likely had at least a simple playbook. Civilation would be impossible without adequate laws to govern it and rules to play by. Even a “free nation” is based upon a “social contract” which regulates the behavior of it’s individual members for the benefit of the whole. It’s just the way it works. Otherwise, society would quickly degenerate and collapse into a state of chaos.

Now, I agree there are a LOT of stupid, unjust and brain-dead laws on the books. I don’t know about you, but I attribute a lot of that to the fact that we have elected a LOT of stupid, unjust and brain-dead lawmakers to be in charge of the rulebook. And who’s to blame for that? I guess that would be the stupid, unjust and brain-dead electorate (us). So, it’s a constant, on-going process of groping in the dark, learning from past mistakes (something we aren’t very good at), fixing/reversing the foolish blunders, and then blindly moving on, aka “the Human problem solving methodology”.

One thing I think should be obvious, but apparently to many it isn’t, is that we live in a very different world than our founding fathers did. Although our Constitution was a masterfully crafted, ingenious document, and remains to this day a wisdom-filled guide to governing/living, it can’t be literally followed in EVERY case within today’s context; it often demands analysis of it’s original intent and relevancy to today’s world. The founders were smart guys, but I doubt they had a crystal ball to guide them. We tend to romanticize the past, though, remembering/inventing the good stuff and blocking out the rest.

When I was in college I vaguely remember taking a philosophy course, and for a good part of the quarter we discussed the subject of total freedom, and whether or not we could handle it if we had it. The conclusion we all came to is we Humans do not want total freedom; most people want a government to regulate us and tell us what we can and can’t do. Kind of like a parent to guide us and break up our sibling rivalries and squabbles, etc. Heaven forbid we must each take responsibility for determining the consequences of our actions and be burdened with the task of deciding things like what’s right and what’s wrong! That would mean we’d have to think! Well, I’ll have none of that!! Not in my world! It’s much easier having someone else (the government) do the thinking.

God, without rules, just think of all the ugly people walking around naked. Whoa! Be careful what you wish for!

a reply to: johnb

Yes. We are free.

Free to enjoy a soft tyranny.
Free to enjoy a soft dictatorship.
Free to enjoy a lack of life-decisions.
Free from the worry about taking care of ourselves.

a reply to: beezzer
Soft tyranny and dictatorship I'll give you, but that is so much better than a mad max style hardest gang ruling my local society on the SW coast of England.

I am happy to also say that I can make pretty much any life-decision if I can justify it to a court of law, and have the means to make it happen. I prefer the framework of a perceived justice system over mad max gang law any day.
Oh, and I enjoy doing as much as I ever can for myself or with the help of my friends here in the UK. The last time the state helped me for anything was the NHS when I needed stitching up because I was leaking to much than was healthy.
Perhaps that's all we really need, healthcare, the rest we make up ourself to be free.

Freedom is an illusion. When I was born my parents files for a social security number a few years after I was born. When I had my kids they were given t
their numbers before they were a day old.

The excuse is the insurance won't pay otherwise.