Germany Cites Deep Rift With U.S. Amid Second Spy Case

a reply to: Bassago

It seems as if the next logical step for Germany, ought to be to inform the US that its embassy on German soil must close. Yes, rogue operatives from the BND are responsible for the leaks, but staff at embassies are under no obligation to accept offers from rogue operators, especially those of nations with which the US co-operates on military intelligence matters, as do Germany, France, Britain, and a whole host of other EU nations.

Frankly, if I was Angela Merkel right now, I would be most thoroughly vexed by this unwarranted betrayal on the part of both the agents concerned, and indeed the US government, who should have instructed their embassy staff in friendly nations, to report all rogue operators to the governments of friendly nations, rather than actually transacting business with these irresponsible agents.

I have no reason to believe that German intelligence operatives are the only ones in Europe selling secrets to all and sundry, so this issue of the US accepting intelligence data from agents of friendly nations, is unlikely to remain a problem between Germany and the United States. It is probable that if the German embassy operates in such a callous and frankly duplicitous manner, then US embassies all over Europe probably need looking into, as do the intelligence operatives of all European nations.

If the US likes having the support of European nations when about its business, it had damned well better get its consular staff in order, and ensure that it assists its allies as much as it is assisted by them in future. This however, this situation smells like a ten day old corpse in a hot, unventilated room.

We keep this up and other countries are going to start telling all our little dirty secrets we have been bribing them to keep.

a reply to: Bassago

Historically, it was a tacit acceptance by all powerful nations that they would 'spy' on each other - a level playing field. They all wanted to know what their allies and enemies are planning and diplomacy has always been driven by gaining the upper hand.

National security isn't just about having the biggest fleet or the best-armed and trained standing army. It's about GDP and dominating markets so commercial interests are as important as military strength.

The US has been so overwhelmingly successful at this that other powerful nations are getting paranoid and losing confidence. Sure enough, trust is waning and the US is close to being seen as 'non-friendly' even if it isn't an overt enemy.

It's a conundrum huh? Why would the US *not* use everything it can to maintain the upper hand? If it can gain the advantage politically and economically, it'd be bad for business to ignore the opportunities. Likewise, Germany can be pissed off about it, but what can they do? Global economics doesn't encourage withdrawing from markets and the US is still a major export destination.

So it's a "prelininary" investigation. If verified I believe the POTUS needs to step in and end this practice of spying on allies while we still have some left. Of course that's assuming he actually has the power and the will to control or intelligence agencies. I'm thinking he has neither.

I agree. Partisan politics aside, the infrastructure of spying on allies hasn't appeared under Bush, Clinton, Reagan or Obama. Cue a visit to Germany from 'someone important' to reassure the Germans and some photo-ops of hand-shaking and forgiveness. Nothing will change and why should it?

a reply to: Kandinsky

Why would the US *not* use everything it can to maintain the upper hand?

I guess it seems (to me) that lately we've been doing everything possible to cause tension and not mitigate it. I agree we should use the tools we have but don't think we need to alienate our allies with this sort of tomfoolery.

You'd think with the push around the world to undermine the dollar as the reserve currency and Eurasia rising we'd be a little more accommodating with our friends. Maybe not though, as a nation we appear to be thrashing every which way.

If the US no longer has any allies, do you guys think they would be less of a bully? Or maybe more because now no one is listening/trusting them?

a reply to: freetheuniverse

If the US no longer has any allies, do you guys think they would be less of a bully? Or maybe more because now no one is listening/trusting them?

Oh we still have allies depending of course on the definition of the word.

As for your question I believe the actions of the US globally will become more and more erratic, drastic and possibly even more violent as our status as a superpower slips away.

People in governments like this generally do not willingly relinquish their power unless forced to. I've always wondered to what extreme they will go to maintain that power. Crash world markets, nuclear Armageddon? IDK but we're going to find out.

a reply to: Bassago

Our 'super power' status ended with the Reagan administration.

And has been snipped away by every potus since.

a reply to: Bassago

I meant to ask that as a hypothetical, but you are right. They would definitely do everything in their power to remain on top. I could imagine them thinking something along the lines of, "If I can't be on top then no one can!" and release all their weapons of mass destruction.

Color me not all that surprised. Considering the amount of spying & eavesdropping the US does globally, we'd be better of dropping "Land of The Free" as a slogan, and adopting a new one. "Land of the Backstabbing Bridge-burners" works for me in terms of accuracy,

Here's an update on the situation from Germany. Looks like they still have a little bit of pride left. Doesn't seem like much of a response but it's something.

The German government has asked the top representative of America's secret services in Germany to leave the country. Members of the government's supervisory panel announced the measure at a press conference in Berlin this afternoon.

Clemens Binninger, a member of Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats, who chairs the committee that oversees the intelligence services, explained that the move came in response to America's "failure to cooperate on resolving various allegations, starting with the NSA and up to the latest incidents".
Germany asks top US intelligence official to leave country over spy row

"Asks" him to leave eh? Impressive. Personally I'd have had him and his subordinates thrown out just for a start.

Wonder what they'll do if he says no? Won't matter anyway as he'll simply be replaced by the next in line.