If Infinite Intelligence exists, then every action is known and so is the future (no free-will)?

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posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 04:01 AM
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This Assumes a Metaphysical assumption that there is an All-Knowing Force that exists. This is in The Metaphysical section because I am speaking in general terms, whether or not this Infinite Intelligence is actually a spirit or god rather than a force, or has some sort of personality is not important to the points I speak about here.


If an All-Knowing Force exists, then that means all of your actions are already known before you were even born into the world. It also means that from the day you were born, your future and destiny (the end of your life - death) was already known. Whenever you feel like you are choosing between "this" and "that", the All-Knowing Force would have already known your choice before you made it. To an All-Knowing Force, all actions are known so the future would never be unpredictable. There would be absolute certainty because Infinite Intelligence knows all things, and nothing would be a surprise.

So whether you believe that there is an All-Knowing God, or just an All-Knowing Force of Wisdom - The Metaphysical Light, how can you believe in Omnscience/All-Knowing but still think you have choices that can change the future even though all actions and therefore the future is already Known?




posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 04:08 AM
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a reply to: arpgme

If an All-Knowing Force exists, then that means all of your actions are already known before you were even born into the world. It also means that from the day you were born, your future and destiny (the end of your life - death) was already known.

So, no...

Where's the entertainment value? There is none.

Free-will is still an input.



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 04:12 AM
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a reply to: arpgme

I believe you are correct in your assertions.

I considered this some 30+ years ago and realised then that an all knowing intelligence cannot exist, unless of course we have no free will.

But then again, this is the opinion of a human that may well be just above bacteria status when compared to intelligence that may actually exist out there somewhere in the universe.

Kind Regards
Myselfaswell



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 04:20 AM
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It's hard to say for sure in one respect because we are in a time domain outside of eternity .Trying to juggle two balls when you cant see the other one and how it interacts with the other is a big mental challenge .The 2 slit experiment still blows my mind .Figure that one out and you may be able to understand free will better ...peace



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 04:43 AM
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Surely an all knowing force could create something completly random? Thats what i would do if i was eternal and all knowing.
So op better think again.



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 04:45 AM
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originally posted by: the2ofusr1
It's hard to say for sure in one respect because we are in a time domain outside of eternity .Trying to juggle two balls when you cant see the other one and how it interacts with the other is a big mental challenge .The 2 slit experiment still blows my mind .Figure that one out and you may be able to understand free will better ...peace


If I want to eat a donut and I am on my way to the store to buy one, to me, it seems like there is free-will because Doubt can enter my mind about what I want to eat and I can say "should I but a donut or something else". The All-Knowing Force already knows the future so it already knows if I will eat the donut or something else. So even though it seems like there is free-will because a "choice" can be made that changes the future, the All-Knowing Force already knew the future and therefore it already knew my choice.


originally posted by: symptomoftheuniverse
Surely an all knowing force could create something completly random? Thats what i would do if i was eternal and all knowing.
So op better think again.


The All-Knowing Force knows everything. Even if it creates a random number generator, it already knows the "random" numbers that would come out without any doubt.
edit on 6-6-2014 by arpgme because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 04:59 AM
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I think that when other beings are involved, free choice and will mean that regardless of your intelligence you cant predict the future accurately because even though you have all this intel and knowledge/wisdom people dont always do what they should in a given situation and theres simply no way to predict how and when somone makes the wrong choice in the face of "obvious" odds.



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 05:03 AM
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This is a very interesting question. I took a philosophy of religion class back when I was in college, and this is one of the topics we discussed.

The philosopher, Boethius, said that if there was an omniscient force, it would have to comprehend our future as it's own present. It wouldn't know the outcome of future events any more than we would. In this case, it would not be controlling our free will, but would instead be watching. Almost like watching a television show, while simultaneously existing eternally out of time. There's a part from the story, "The Consolation Of Philosophy," that we had to read, and there's actually a quote I saved on this specific topic. It says: "...you can indeed alter what you propose to do, but, because the present truth of Providence sees that you can and whether or not you will, you cannot frustrate the divine knowledge any more than you can escape the eye of someone who is present and watching you, even though you may, by your free will, vary your actions".

Imagine watching an ant crawl around in an ant farm. You can't control what he does, but as he decides to go down one tunnel or the other, you understand the route he decides to go down in your own "in the moment" awareness. This is because you are essentially living "out of time" in regards to the ant. Same idea in an extremely condensed nutshell.

Interesting stuff



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 05:08 AM
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How does knowing what choice will be made prevent a choice from being made?

If I had the power to look 5 minutes into the future to see what would happen does that mean I am controlling people and they have no choice anymore?



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 05:08 AM
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a reply to: arpgme

I used to simplify this point.

I provide you three objects and ask you to pick one.

Technically at this point you have an apparent infinite number of choices, such as getting up and walking away, for simplicity's sake we'll agree that you will choose one of the objects.

If there is an all knowing intelligence two of the objects may as well not be there, as it has already been observed by the all knowing observer that you will choose the object that you chose.

Kind Regards
Myselfaswell

edit on 6-6-2014 by myselfaswell because: clarity
edit on 6-6-2014 by myselfaswell because: tense



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 05:22 AM
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originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
How does knowing what choice will be made prevent a choice from being made?

If I had the power to look 5 minutes into the future to see what would happen does that mean I am controlling people and they have no choice anymore?


It doesn't prevent a choice from being made, nor does it mean you are controlling people.

If you are all-knowing , that means you already know the future and all the choices that were, are, and will ever be made. Everything is already in the process of being the future (the future which is already known to the All-Knowing Force).



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 05:26 AM
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originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
How does knowing what choice will be made prevent a choice from being made?

If I had the power to look 5 minutes into the future to see what would happen does that mean I am controlling people and they have no choice anymore?


The OP is probably assuming with Omniscience comes Omnipotence, which may or may not be the case. If there exists a God/entity/force that is infinitely knowledgeable, then it is likely to be infinitely powerful as well.



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 05:29 AM
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originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

The OP is probably assuming with Omniscience comes Omnipotence, which may or may not be the case. If there exists a God/entity/force that is infinitely knowledgeable, then it is likely to be infinitely powerful as well.


I never mentioned Omnipotence at all, nor did I assume anything about it.

Whether or not Omnipotence exists, it doesn't change the points I'm making here. If Omniscience exists then the future is already known, and all choices leading up to the future is also already known.

This means that The All-Knowing Force would already know where we will be at the end of our lives before we are even born (destiny). It wouldn't be known to us and we would only be 'believing' that we have the power to change our destiny (the end point of our lives) but to The All-Knowing Force the destiny (the end point of each particular life) is already known and all of the actions leading up to that end point.
edit on 6-6-2014 by arpgme because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 05:52 AM
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a reply to: arpgme

Or it could mean that you are born free to decide which road you are going to choose and which actions you make. And that the All-Knowing Force has designed the Universe in a way that in the end, no matter what decisions people will make individually, his will shall happen.



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 06:12 AM
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My personal opinion is that Our future was set when the singularity was formed. All the Properties to form life. Our universe and everything else we observe, was neatly packed into a lump of mass. There i snothing random about Our existence. And there is nothing random about Our future either.


We think we have a free will to make what ever change we want. But who in their honest mind can have that thought?

Non of you would know how to live without someone controlling you and the society you are a part of.

Non of you make any Choices that matter. The Choices that realy matter are made for you. We are nothing but working ants who have no say in what matters.
edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 06:16 AM
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originally posted by: arpgme
I never mentioned Omnipotence at all, nor did I assume anything about it.


You didn't mention the term, but you made reference to it by suggesting that Free Will is impacted by Omniscience - which you haven't demonstrated to be true.


Whether or not Omnipotence exists, it doesn't change the points I'm making here. If Omniscience exists then the future is already known, and all choices leading up to the future is also already known.


Actually, it does. Omniscience does not relate to Free Will in the sense you are suggesting.

I know that at least one baby will be born and at least one person will die tomorrow at some stage. How does possessing this knowledge directly restrict the will of any other being?

edit on 6/6/2014 by Dark Ghost because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 06:25 AM
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OP this may be worth listening to ....Calvinism vs. Molinism - William Lane Craig vs. Paul Helm



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 06:54 AM
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There is a difference between knowing and experiencing.

This is the purpose of life!

Peace,

Korg.



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 06:58 AM
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You're taught this theory in psychology, nature vs nurture.

The most convincing arguement is ideas don't come from no where, they are already in your brain. You just have to have the correct string of variables to remember them. Sound plausable?

I think so.



posted on Jun, 6 2014 @ 10:35 AM
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Maybe you should think of it this way. Instead of the infinite intelligence being conscious what if the infinite intelligence was unconscious? What way could it make itself conscious or be aware of what it actually is? I would say divide itself into another infinite intelligence and another and another(repeat infinitely) .

All of the infinite intelligence are now a subject to itself(individual) and an object to the others but they are all from the same origin source.

Since these intelligence started unconscious they do not know their full potential so through interacting together they can slowly actualize that potential taking different avenues but are held together by an inner/outer logic. The only way possible to maximize infinite potential and allow the most freedom possible.

If you think of zero as a balancing point between negative and positive infinity maybe the infinite intelligence's are zeros/nothing/unrealized potential. Divide by zero gets you another zero.





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