Why does proof of God somehow destroy the concept of Faith??

I've struggled with this and argu...conversed with people on this subject for quite some time now. I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts and opinions on the matter.

While completely immersed in the Old Testament years ago I started to question the notion of "non-interference" many people seem to push when I ask "why didn't god help?". Stretch this across anything you can Mad Lib (where was god on this day, that day, those days, etc.) and I've always, ALWAYS walked away at the same time: God works in mysterious ways or "what about the thousands of times god possibly interfered but you just never knew?"

So with that context laid out, I always leave with "why can't god help in certain situations like (s)he did during the era spelled out in fine detail in Genesis on up? God was known, god gave demands, god extended the day, took down walls, and seemed to be a hands on, go get 'em type god."

Or better yet, why can't God simply "show his face" (so to speak) and prove to me the ancient writings are exactly what they say (or not)? And everybody chimes in with "you must have faith, and if god proves himself (her / it self) this would destroy the notion of faith."

I couldn't disagree more. I find it somewhat simplified and bland to think god simply being "verified" would translate into me (and many others) getting down on the knees immediately. I feel that verification leads individuals to then choose to justify what they may feel are shortcomings of said deity, strengths of said deity, and the over/under on whether that represents your mindset.

I don't know, it just seems like when Cain was banished and marked so the "others" would know, I can't help but wonder who 'they' worshipped and why? Fear? Ignorance? What was it? It can't be as simple as "this is god, on your knees". But I am curious about your thoughts on why proof negates faith.

Thanks!

God has a plan to attempt to grow and mature the human race, rather like a harvest, and in order to do this, He treats us sort of like a parent. The Old Testament approach was direct and hands-on because we were like small children, toddlers in our walk. We needed to stern guidance and a strong doctrine of law. As we grow and mature, we learn to walk on our own more and need to grow and experience things on our own, make our own mistakes and decisions. At this point, God sent Christ and the doctrine of Grace. We are now expected to walk on our own, and He watches and waits for us to make our own mistakes learning that we still cannot live without Him. When we discover that, He is waiting with loving forgiveness to welcome the prodigals.

If He always stepped in to save you from everything that could happen to you, it would be like the helicopter parent who never lets their child experience the world ... you'd never learn anything.

And when His plan comes to fruition and the harvest is ripe, very soon now I think, He will call us home.

This is what I aways think of when people say "god works in mysterious ways"...

Look at it this way;

You been a bad boy growing up, and your parents told you 'If you're on your best behavior when your birthday comes, I will buy you this or that' so the the boy really wants what he was offer so he goes out of his way to be on his best behavior in order to get what he wants.

That is why faith is involved, to weed out the fake from the genuine good hearted people who are all about service to others rather than themselves.

Sorry I couldn't explain it any better. I'm sure you all get the idea.

originally posted by: DuckforcoveR

So with that context laid out, I always leave with "why can't god help in certain situations like (s)he did during the era spelled out ...................Or better yet, why can't God simply "show his face" (so to speak)

Similar disussion took place just a few days ago...so I will have to recycle some of my points. First off, God is not our baby sitter. Humans are subject to 2 things in this world, human free will and natural laws in place. Wars are a result of human free will. Earthquakes are because of natural law. Starvation is a result of both human will and natural law. If Ethiopians are starving to death, while Europeans are having food fights, its not God's fault. Mankind bears responsibility. _________________________________________________As for God 'showing' Himself. He does not need to. Faith in the unsees is what seperates the believers from the rest.

a reply to: ketsuko

But what if I don't need him to step in for me? I'm not asking for a helicopter parent, just a birthday card telling me he's my parent. Like an orphan. Tell me you're real and I will happily search the world and myself for the desire (or lack thereof) to seek you out. To be a part of my life.

I might find out you dumped me in a BK bathroom and say to hell with you, but at least I would be making a decision with more information than I have now.

a reply to: sk0rpi0n

Again, I would be happy with (rather, content with) a god that comes down and says " earthquakes happen, deal with it"

"starvation happens, but you have the power to fix it, deal with it"

I'm not trying to call God out as lazy (or us as "needy") I'm trying to counter the "proof destroys faith" idea.

But thank you for the input, it makes a little sense to reason that way, just not quite sure it answers my question.

a reply to: DuckforcoveR
possibly the standard definition of god is all wrong?
maybe my siggy thread will help

btw
when some one says "you have free will to do ( or believe ) what I tell you "
you are dealing with "satandard" hypnotic technique
lol
such is faith

It does not destroy faith, it destroys religion, which is a form of government, primarily used in ancient times, though still useful today in manipulating lower class people that lack education. Mind you, manipulation doesnt make it evil.

In real world terms, 99.99% of religions have a bull# "interpretation" of "holy books", aka what they establish the rules to be, is what they are.

If proof of God comes along, bull# begone. It will be a religious genocide in theological terms where room for interpretation of anything would, in a best case scenario, take a backseat in terms of power, and in worst case, be completely rejected by the masses due to the "proof of God" which overules everything people thought they knew.

Thankfully we werent created by just one being, so no such proof will exist. While i subscribe to the idea that our bodies may have come this far through a mix of evolution and outside foreign intervention for whatever purpose, our souls is what spins the so called wheels, and genetic manipulation from dna doesnt make that, so that side of things i have no idea about.

Either way, thats my take on the difference between faith and religion. Dont mix the two.

Maybe god has no interest in our affairs. In point of fact god probably created us and moved on to more interesting things once he/she/it became bored.

I'm sure also that too many people ask that same question and the only thing the church can say is "eh, god works in mysterious ways" and " god wants us to have faith"
cuts out that entire line of thinking so the sheep don't wander away.

Or maybe god is just a sick individual that enjoys burning people that cant believe blindly in eternal hellfire due to thinking in a manner that he designed them to.
just a thought

originally posted by: DuckforcoveR
But I am curious about your thoughts on why proof negates faith.

Thanks!

Thats roughly like asking if being shown the chemical reactions in your brain during a state of being in love, negates love. Faith in God is ultimately a choice that had to be made by humans who are endowed with the ability to think abstractly (from which comes spirituality). Humans are to fulfill the spiritual duty and abide by the spiritual laws in place, so a lack of faith will have consequences... Similar to how jumping off a building has the same consequences whether or not the jumper believes in gravity or not. Its just there, thats how it works.

a reply to: Danbones

"you have free will to do ( or believe ) what I tell you " - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

LOL!!! Wow. Yes.
Free will to do what I tell you.

a reply to: sk0rpi0n

Nice way of putting it. Really, the love analogy can ride this thread to the end. I just don't think it quite stacks up to a deity. Love is something we feel, we learn from, we "just know is there" and we have faith in. But love doesn't require anything more than effort (I mean, Manson can feel love) and God has an alternative (or so has been interpreted) for those without.

Dimmu Borgir is something I love but they won't hurl me with threats and damnations if I choose a Ten Masked Men version of "Oops I did it again" over Gateways.

Technically speaking "Proof removes Faith" simply by definition.

faith
[feyth]
noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.

Faith is Belief without proof. So if there is proof it's no longer faith.

a reply to: sk0rpi0n

What are these Spiritual Laws???

Because I think there is at least one significant difference between alleged Spiritual Laws and Natural Universal Laws.

Hey Duck,

But I am curious about your thoughts on why proof negates faith.

I'm not sure that it does.

Does Proof Negate Faith?

The author of the above post/article points out that Jesus's disciples were exposed to a great deal of proof. Yet it doesn't ring true to say that they had no faith. He suggests that maybe the problem is with our understanding of the word faith.

From another angle I'm not at all sure that "proof" creates faith. Seems like it would, but there are examples of that not being the case. You pointed one out yourself, the Israelites were exposed to a great deal of "proof" and yet as a student of the Old Testament you know that didn't always work out in the sense of creating a people that were faithful to God. Judas is another example, presumably he was exposed to much of the same evidence that the other apostles were exposed to.

I'm not an expert, but it seems to me that faith is different from a simple belief.

Take a look at James 2:19.

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

Certainly demons have all the proof that one would need to believe in God, yet they don't place their faith in him. They KNOW beyond a shadow of doubt that God exists, but it doesn't affect them in a positive way. And so I have to ask if "proof positive" would effect either myself or anyone else in the positive way that I think it would.

There are a couple of other things to consider and I put if forward as merely humble speculation.

Does a lack of proof positive shield us in some way? I mean if we accept that "proof positive" doesn't equal obedience and faith in God, if we consider that it might not have those results for ourselves despite our feelings on the matter, does a lack of proof positive shield us, in at least some limited fashion, from culpability for our sins? I don't know the answer to that question and I'm not putting it forward as truth, just speculation.

Another thing to consider, again humble speculation on my part, though I believe I'm on stronger footing with this, is that God's perspective is eternal while ours so often isn't. The idea of God as a parent has been brought up in this thread. Parents, good parents, punish their children if they believe that this punishment will benefit them in the long term . . . A little bit of relatively minor suffering for a short duration to prevent greater suffering in the long term. Consider also that good parents allow their children to take some risks and experience the consequences of those risks. It's all part of growing up and maturing. This life and all it's sufferings, compared to eternity, are like the blink of an eye, or a scuffed knee from falling off your bicycle, or like a few minutes of "time out".

Just some things to consider.

i say that God shows his presence more than people realize. you just got to open your eyes and realize he did show up.
i know of a couple of times that he intervened in my life and saved me from myself and my actions. that just him and me knew about, i prayed for certain things, not to happen, and asked him to stop one from. i don't want to go into much detail about it, lets just say that in all of them i would have suffered greatly from my own stupidity.

when ever i hear people talk about this i always think of this joke.

A city is experiencing a terrible flood. A man is sitting on his front porch watching the water rise and a jeep drives up. “Get in! Everything’s going to be underwater!” “No thanks. God will save me. An hour passes and the water Has risen in the house. A boat comes by. “Get in! You’re going to drown!” “No thanks. God will save me.” The water rises over the house. The man is now on the roof. A helicopter flies overhead. “We’ll lower a line. Grab it or you’ll die!” “No thanks. God will save me.” The man drowns. When he gets to Heaven and meets God he says,

Man: “God! Why didn’t you save me?!”

GOD: “I sent a jeep, a boat, and a helicopter. What more did you want?”

originally posted by: DuckforcoveR
a reply to: sk0rpi0n

Again, I would be happy with (rather, content with) a god that comes down and says " earthquakes happen, deal with it"

"starvation happens, but you have the power to fix it, deal with it"

I'm not trying to call God out as lazy (or us as "needy") I'm trying to counter the "proof destroys faith" idea.

But thank you for the input, it makes a little sense to reason that way, just not quite sure it answers my question.

why can't you figure that out on your own?

it seems like you and some others want the answers to the tests they will take tomorrow.

what proof do you need? would it do any good?
you claim it will give you MORE faith, faith in what? you would have "proof" why would you need faith?

a reply to: imwilliam

The idea of God as a parent has been brought up in this thread. Parents, good parents, punish their children if they believe that this punishment will benefit them in the long term - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

fantastic post by the way...

It reminds me of Job....who was the only one that didn't know what was going on behind the scenes....

originally posted by: tsingtao
you would have "proof" why would you need faith?

That's your answer right there. If you have proof of something you no longer need to have faith in it.

The reason for the confusion is that I think the word faith has taken on different meanings to people over time.