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Why does proof of God somehow destroy the concept of Faith??

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posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 08:24 PM
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a reply to: tsingtao

What I want is my own personal satisfaction that God "A" is an ass, God "B" is merciful but not as strong as God "C" (who's a complete egomaniac by the way) and so on.

Not really, by the way, as I said above. I just want to know why people keep preaching that proof negates faith. Why does KNOWING god (or many gods) exist completely disregard the ability for us to decide whether or not their Doctrine is what we want to adhere to.

Nothing more





posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 08:28 PM
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originally posted by: sk0rpi0n

Again, I would be happy with (rather, content with) a god that comes down and says " earthquakes happen, deal with it"

"starvation happens, but you have the power to fix it, deal with it"

I'm not trying to call God out as lazy (or us as "needy") I'm trying to counter the "proof destroys faith" idea.

But thank you for the input, it makes a little sense to reason that way, just not quite sure it answers my question.


Do you mind explaining exactly why do you need him/it to tell you this?
edit on 22-4-2014 by TrueMessiah because: (no reason given)

edit on 22-4-2014 by TrueMessiah because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 08:29 PM
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originally posted by: DuckforcoveR
a reply to: sk0rpi0n

Nice way of putting it. Really, the love analogy can ride this thread to the end. I just don't think it quite stacks up to a deity. Love is something we feel, we learn from, we "just know is there" and we have faith in. But love doesn't require anything more than effort
Love, like God is a concept. I gave the example of emotion (love), natural law (gravity) and the spiritual as concepts that humans instinctively try to comprehend and process.



posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 08:31 PM
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a reply to: DuckforcoveR

Thanks Duck.

Job is a great example of faith.

If I may, in addition to your studies in the Bible, you might want to give C.S. Lewis a read. Particularly his book "The Problem of Pain" He's a brilliant author and I think he might be helpful to you. He certainly has been for me.

Regards,

William



posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 08:31 PM
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a reply to: TrueMessiah

I think you hit it on the head, that's what I was looking for. Because for my premise to be truly effective, it would need to be a worldwide announcement (otherwise I would be that "wacko" who talks to god and knows he's real....God knows we have many of those).

I would like to see proof where the "good guys" see it, the "bad guys" see it, and the kid at the creek watching the bloodshed unfold (me) sees it. Not on the good side, the bad side, but the "well what the hell just happened?" side.

Then, I could decide whether or not a side is even something I want.

But as of now, we're all just watching the sky picking out shapes in the clouds while calling each other blind.



posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 08:32 PM
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a reply to: imwilliam

I certainly will. Thank you!



posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 08:37 PM
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originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: sk0rpi0n

What are these Spiritual Laws???

Because I think there is at least one significant difference between alleged Spiritual Laws and Natural Universal Laws.
Spiritual laws have to do with things like the nature of the soul, the mechanism of the afterlife, reward and punishment. Like gravity, its the same for everyone.



posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 08:41 PM
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a reply to: TrueMessiah

and one more thought:

I don't post often. I star a post every now and then but for the most part I'm very happy with just soaking it all up. I've been on this site more than 10 years now but didn't even join until recently.

I never expected an answer to bring me to church tomorrow or shun the church on Friday. I just find that broadening my conversational horizons has been quite beneficial and almost euphoric. SO... more than anything I was just looking for something that didn't come from my friends or family that, to be quite honest, have re-hashed everything year in and year out to the point where you know what the answer will be before you ask it.

I'm pretty sure (now that I think about it) this is my first thread. If not, it's not far from the first. I just wanted to chat with somebody who will give me an answer I didn't see coming. And if I'm lucky, I'll get an answer I never expected.






posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 08:42 PM
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a reply to: DuckforcoveR

You have laid out, almost exactly, how I feel on the subject of faith. I never understood faith as others seem to. My belief comes from experience and if I didn't have that experience, I wouldn't have "faith"... therefore is it really "faith" by the standard definition?

When others have faith in their gods without any sort of evidence or reason to believe, I get very confused. To me, that's not faith; it's a conditioned set of beliefs and part of those beliefs they are conditioned to adhere to is the belief that having "faith" is paramount for the whole thing to work.

I admit that it's something I've always a bit envious of but I have never quite understood it.



posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 08:46 PM
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a reply to: sk0rpi0n


reward and punishment

No.

Just -

more time to figure it out. Another chance. Five hundred more chances.
Do-overs in perpetuity.

Sheesh yall with your 'punished or rewarded' stuff. We just are what we are. We are all doing our best. If that's not good enough, then the 'Father' messed up to begin with. We are ALL just doing our best at every given moment. Right, wrong, kind, cruel, hit, miss, win, lose, fail, succeed.....

We are all just doing our best.
Any deity who doesn't get that (who supposedly 'made us') is, well....
not worth worrying about.

Just keep swimming. Carry on. One day we'll learn why....but it is not about reward and punishment.



posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 09:00 PM
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@ buzzywigs


more time to figure it out. Another chance. Five hundred more chances.
Do-overs in perpetuity.

We just are what we are. We are all doing our best.
re-incarnationism also works on the basis of reward and punishment. Theres something about bad people being reborn into misery or as animals.... good people are reborn into nobility.

If that's not good enough, then the 'Father' messed up to begin with.
no, blame humans for messing up.



posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 09:02 PM
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a reply to: DuckforcoveR

I don't know. I know He's there.

But I guess another thing to ask would be - What "birthday card" would you accept?

There are plenty of people who make the same claim you do. "Just show me a sign" they say, but what is proof enough? And, why would God perform at your beck and call?



posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 09:07 PM
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a reply to: sk0rpi0n

Ok, but I think there is a big difference between the two. Where as Gravity is repeatable, universal and has continuity how can you say the same for Spiritual Laws???

Especially in the area of reward and punishment??? Or are all rewards and punishments only present after death???



posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 09:10 PM
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a reply to: DuckforcoveR

Well, then you were born in the wrong time.



God has given us space to try to do for ourselves.

And when he returns and we are all forced to acknowledge Him whether we believe or no, it will not be a happy day, but if you and I are alive to witness it, you will get your wish. Not a single person living will be able to deny Him.



posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 09:11 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

Because he cares? Because if that makes the difference, it would be a small sacrifice given everything he would gain by getting a child back. Because someone who really loves anyone would stop at nothing, particularly if there was literally nothing they could not do.



posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 09:13 PM
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a reply to: Cuervo

Oh, I do have evidence and reason to believe, but not for any reasons you would recognize. They are reasons I can't explain to myself, even. I simply know, and there are some other things, too, but that knowing I mentioned is such a bizarre feeling compared to what I normally feel in every other walk of life or experience. When I say that, I don't mean that it's bad, it's just out of character for me. But, it gives me an extraordinary feeling of peace and the strength to endure which has been a God-send to me in the face of lots of chronic pain in my past.



posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 09:16 PM
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originally posted by: AfterInfinity
a reply to: ketsuko

Because he cares? Because if that makes the difference, it would be a small sacrifice given everything he would gain by getting a child back. Because someone who really loves anyone would stop at nothing, particularly if there was literally nothing they could not do.



I care about my son, too, but I don't perform at his every whim. There comes a point when a child has to learn how to do for himself to some degree, particularly when he gets to the stage where he begins pushing for independence.

If you really seek God with an open heart, He's there. But demanding He perform cheap party tricks isn't getting you anywhere. That's selfish.



posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 09:34 PM
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originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: sk0rpi0n

Ok, but I think there is a big difference between the two. Where as Gravity is repeatable, universal and has continuity how can you say the same for Spiritual Laws???
while gravity is an ''external'' phenomena pertaining to physical matter... Spiritual laws are internal. We experience it on the individual level. For example, no man cant predict/explain what happens exactly after death. It is solely for the individual to experience and what happens later is between him and God. Whatever happens after death will happen in the way God has planned it...whether you believe or not will not change it.


Especially in the area of reward and punishment??? Or are all rewards and punishments only present after death???
imo reward and punishments take place mainly in the afterlife. Good things can happen to bad people and bad things can happen to good people. Its mixed up as a test in this life. Both poverty and wealth can either lead one to God or cause one to stumble.



posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 09:48 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
a reply to: ketsuko

Because he cares? Because if that makes the difference, it would be a small sacrifice given everything he would gain by getting a child back. Because someone who really loves anyone would stop at nothing, particularly if there was literally nothing they could not do.



I care about my son, too, but I don't perform at his every whim. There comes a point when a child has to learn how to do for himself to some degree, particularly when he gets to the stage where he begins pushing for independence.

If you really seek God with an open heart, He's there. But demanding He perform cheap party tricks isn't getting you anywhere. That's selfish.


Who said anything about party tricks or performing at my whim? Your son sees you, hears you, feels yours arms and your kisses. You are literally as real to him as the clothes on his body and the food in his stomach. You can't say the same for a god whose every miracle is complemented by a dozen tragedies and can just as easily be explained through a diligent process of intelligent examination. If I receive a postcard from my dad every birthday, but never see him or hear him or meet him, that postcard could be from the bum on the corner. I would never know because I just assumed. Assumption is only helpful if you make a concerted effort to verify it - which makes it a hypothesis. I don't think its selfish, I think its honesty. Honesty with myself about what I believe and why.



posted on Apr, 22 2014 @ 09:53 PM
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imo reward and punishments take place mainly in the afterlife. Good things can happen to bad people and bad things can happen to good people. Its mixed up as a test in this life. Both poverty and wealth can either lead one to God or cause one to stumble.
expanding on this, I once read a good argument that those who are wealthy have a better chance (theoretically) at seeking God and developing spirituality...for the reason that their wealth ensures they dont need to worry about basic human needs...that so many millions lack....allowing them to concentrate on spiritual matter. however, the wealthy usually also end up in the trap of thinking that making more wealth its the sole purpose of life, thereby ruining the potential they actually had to come to God. In the end, a kings corpse is as ''dead'' as a beggars. My point is that 'rewards' or good conditions here may lead to punishments later if one is not careful.







 
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