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evolution, where is the evidence???!!! I see none

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posted on Jul, 28 2006 @ 09:04 AM
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where's the evidence.. i see ''none''?

were you born stupid or did you become stupid during your lifetime because of the environmental effects of being brought up without the concept of learning or intelligence..

sorry to be so harsh.. but where's the evidence.. i see ''none''.. is a stupid remark to make..

to say you don't believe the evidence, and that you don't believe in evolution, that's absolutely fine.. however, to suggest to everyone here that there is zero evidence on this matter.. i just don't get what you're trying to achieve by saying there is no evidence..

forget what you're taught in schools.. forget textbooks and origin of species and so on.. just have a look around the world and think to yourself..

a) aliens created us, this planet's life, and all for us to enjoy.. very little evidence to suggest this is the case.. mostly guess work.. however some people believe this is how we got here..

b) a devine being, 'god' or 'gods' created the universe, the earth and us.. tying in to the fact that the earth needs to be relatively young for many concepts of religion to hold up.. hundreds of religions, thousands of sects and ideologies of 'how' you praise this all mightey creator.. who's right.. nobody knows, as with the aliens it's guess work at best.. sure evolution is again a guess and a stab in the dark.. but out of the 3 options it has more supporting evidence to suggest this stab in the dark is pretty accurate..

c) big bang.. cosmic evolution sets about creating the universe over billions of years.. our galaxy, solar system and planet forms.. basic lifeforms evolve.. dinosaurs.. premative life.. humans.. and thus is the end product of billions of years of evolution..

out of the three options, evolution by far has more evidence to prove it's case.. what you believe in is up to you.. i believe the right answer is evolution.. but maybe if i was brought up armish.. i may never have even thought about believing in evolution.. your environment will play a big part in your beliefs and ideologies.. and you're unlikely to change those for anyone no matter what the evidence suggests..

everyday evidence for evolution increases.. it's piling up.. soon it'll be hard for any person to dismiss the idea of evolution.. at best for religion it'll eventually adopt it and say that evolution tied in with god's master plan..

or maybe you sleep better at night with your bible under your pillow, your cross around your neck, and just ignore evolution so it will go away..




posted on Jul, 28 2006 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
where's the evidence.. i see ''none''?


For the record, I don't agree that there's none. Just that there isn't enough to generate a working model to say "yes, this is what happened and/or is happening"


Originally posted by shaunybaby
were you born stupid or did you become stupid during your lifetime because of the environmental effects of being brought up without the concept of learning or intelligence..


The assumption is that the originator is stupid.
Called a "loaded question" and usually gets thrown out of court. Still used by lawyers to sway juries though.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
sorry to be so harsh.. but where's the evidence.. i see ''none''.. is a stupid remark to make..


Yeah, it was harsh, but will leave for the originator to address whether they do see something and are choosing to ignore or they literally see none at all.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
to say you don't believe the evidence, and that you don't believe in evolution, that's absolutely fine.. however, to suggest to everyone here that there is zero evidence on this matter.. i just don't get what you're trying to achieve by saying there is no evidence..


Probably attempting to make a persuasive argument rather than a logical one. I think a logical one would say, "The fossilized evidence does not produce a cohesive model of evolution to establish it as scientific fact." Then again, it ain't my thread.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
forget what you're taught in schools.. forget textbooks and origin of species and so on.. just have a look around the world and think to yourself..


I think there's a lot of merit to what we're taught in school, textbooks and yes, the sillyness that is "The Origin of Species" though one cannot depend on them 100%. I think education was supposed to be utilized as a tool, to help one get to the truth, not to declare it so without substantiation. On the other hand, observation is a good tool too. When coupled together with education, it can be a helpful pair.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
a) aliens created us, this planet's life, and all for us to enjoy.. very little evidence to suggest this is the case.. mostly guess work.. however some people believe this is how we got here..

b) a devine being, 'god' or 'gods' created the universe, the earth and us.. tying in to the fact that the earth needs to be relatively young for many concepts of religion to hold up.. hundreds of religions, thousands of sects and ideologies of 'how' you praise this all mightey creator.. who's right.. nobody knows, as with the aliens it's guess work at best.. sure evolution is again a guess and a stab in the dark.. but out of the 3 options it has more supporting evidence to suggest this stab in the dark is pretty accurate..

c) big bang.. cosmic evolution sets about creating the universe over billions of years.. our galaxy, solar system and planet forms.. basic lifeforms evolve.. dinosaurs.. premative life.. humans.. and thus is the end product of billions of years of evolution..

out of the three options, evolution by far has more evidence to prove it's case..


For YOU this may be true. I have more proof of God than anything else. This was due to the observation you hail so greatly in your previous statement, coupled with experience.



what you believe in is up to you..


So true!



i believe the right answer is evolution.. but maybe if i was brought up armish.. i may never have even thought about believing in evolution..


Who knows?



your environment will play a big part in your beliefs and ideologies.. and you're unlikely to change those for anyone no matter what the evidence suggests..


I don't believe a person is a slave to their environment...or genetics...or anything else for that matter unless they submit their will to doing so. We're not programs. We're not robots. Putting in input A does not mean answer B when it comes to human beings. Some people CHOOSE to be bent on their teachings, environment or genetics, but if you're on ATS, you're more than likely a thinker.



everyday evidence for evolution increases.. it's piling up.. soon it'll be hard for any person to dismiss the idea of evolution.. at best for religion it'll eventually adopt it and say that evolution tied in with god's master plan..


Some have. I don't see only 2 catagories: Evolution or God. There are those who say God used evolution as the mechanism. There are some who feel there's a hybrid theory, that evolution is partially right. Varies degrees for various minds and incoming information. I think everyone wants to slam the gavel before the evidence is presented. Let's keep all options on the table, evolution, creation, hybrid-theories, etc. until we learn more.



or maybe you sleep better at night with your bible under your pillow, your cross around your neck, and just ignore evolution so it will go away..


Or maybe you'll make love to your science book because it justifies doing what you want out of "instinct" or "environmental factors". Silly game, let's not go there


[edit on 28-7-2006 by saint4God]



posted on Jul, 28 2006 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
For the record, I don't agree that there's none. Just that there isn't enough to generate a working model to say "yes, this is what happened and/or is happening"


sorry to burst your bubble, but we have witnessed it happening.. evidence was given for this a few posts back.



The assumption is that the originator is stupid.
Called a "loaded question" and usually gets thrown out of court. Still used by lawyers to sway juries though.


shame i didn't go to law school.. i may have made quite the lawyer.



Probably attempting to make a persuasive argument rather than a logical one. I think a logical one would say, "The fossilized evidence does not produce a cohesive model of evolution to establish it as scientific fact." Then again, it ain't my thread.


well it does produce a model.. it depends how you want to view it and what your biased opinion is before you view the evidence.. it's pretty difficult to dig up 100,000s of years of evolution and piece together the puzzle, especially as evolution is relatively a new scientific theory..

it's wierd you'd have a problem with the authority of fossilized evidence, yet have no problems with the authority of the bible.. afterall that's inspired by god.. but that's a whole thread in itself.



I think there's a lot of merit to what we're taught in school, textbooks and yes, the sillyness that is "The Origin of Species" though one cannot depend on them 100%. I think education was supposed to be utilized as a tool, to help one get to the truth, not to declare it so without substantiation. On the other hand, observation is a good tool too. When coupled together with education, it can be a helpful pair.


the problem with school teachings is that people view it as something that is forced upon the youth.. which is why many christian groups want ID to be taught.. they're very much used to 'forcing' ideas and teachings on people.. it's what they do best..



I don't believe a person is a slave to their environment...or genetics...or anything else for that matter unless they submit their will to doing so. We're not programs. We're not robots. Putting in input A does not mean answer B when it comes to human beings. Some people CHOOSE to be bent on their teachings, environment or genetics, but if you're on ATS, you're more than likely a thinker.


as much as you don't like it, environment plays a great deal in who you are and who you will become.. you can change subtle things.. but you're eventually a product of your childhood, your surroundings and your environment.. genes play as much of a role, yet coupled with your environment.. that's how you're shaped..



Some have. I don't see only 2 catagories: Evolution or God. There are those who say God used evolution as the mechanism. There are some who feel there's a hybrid theory, that evolution is partially right. Varies degrees for various minds and incoming information. I think everyone wants to slam the gavel before the evidence is presented. Let's keep all options on the table, evolution, creation, hybrid-theories, etc. until we learn more.


it's the alternate theories that are holding back any sort of advance.. evolution gets slammed as mere 'nonsense' using the sarcastic remark from dr.hovind, ''monkeys are still having babies.. why don't they make another human''.. now that's not the response of every god-loving citizen.. but people listen to him, buy his videos and buy in to his propoganda..

new ideas always take time to get used to.. in time we'll get used to GM food and people won't be so afraid of trying new things.. it's laughable that you get some hippy greenpeace wacko who's against GM food who says things like ''all food should be organic, that's our aim, for everyone to eat organic food''.. however, if all farmland in the world was used to produce organic food we'd only have enough for 2/3s of the world's population.. not such a bright idea now.. with GM food we'd have enough to end world hunger.. why don't we do it.. because people are afraid of new ideas.. people are afraid to open up to the possibility of evolution and the possibility that there isn't a god.. no god, no heaven.. no heaven, no salvation.. what then becomes the purpose of billions of religious people?.. their only purpose seems to be to serve their time here.. and then be saved.. without religion they lose their purpose.



Or maybe you'll make love to your science book because it justifies doing what you want out of "instinct" or "environmental factors". Silly game, let's not go there



the only difference is.. is that people do wear crosses around their necks and do sleep with a bible beside them.. it's very much a 'religion' thing.. don't confuse it with science.

[edit on 28-7-2006 by shaunybaby]



posted on Jul, 28 2006 @ 01:08 PM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
sorry to burst your bubble, but we have witnessed it happening.. evidence was given for this a few posts back.


I hope it wasn't the yahoo news link, because that's not showing for me.
If anyone has any mad linking skeelz, mind giving me the hook up? I saw the post refusing it have a working link...


Originally posted by shaunybaby
shame i didn't go to law school.. i may have made quite the lawyer.


*smiles* May not be too late. I think you have what it takes. Fortitude, perseverence, an interest in looking at things from different angles, questioning things that don't seem right to you, postulating why people think and act the way they do, etc...


Originally posted by shaunybaby
well it does produce a model.. it depends how you want to view it and what your biased opinion is before you view the evidence.. it's pretty difficult to dig up 100,000s of years of evolution and piece together the puzzle, especially as evolution is relatively a new scientific theory..


Opinions make no difference when there's facts. The fact the people have opinions shows there aren't established facts. There'd be no discussion otherwise.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
it's wierd you'd have a problem with the authority of fossilized evidence, yet have no problems with the authority of the bible.. afterall that's inspired by god.. but that's a whole thread in itself.


Hehe, first time I've heard someone mention a believer having problems following authority. I guess we're not "sheeple" after all



Originally posted by shaunybaby
the problem with school teachings is that people view it as something that is forced upon the youth.. which is why many christian groups want ID to be taught.. they're very much used to 'forcing' ideas and teachings on people.. it's what they do best..


Here's the difference, nobody forces another to believe in God. Schools do FORCE you to learn the material they teach else you fail and have to do it again. You're not legally obligated to go to church. You are legally obligated to go to school. You are not required by colleges and professions to have any church background (in fact they're not permitted to discriminate on that basis) but you ARE required to have high school completed to go to college. You ARE required to have high school for any decent paying job and a college degree for any well-paying professional job. Plato set it up that way and we apparently like it so. So, before we go "woe is me, look at what Christianity is doing to me", take a look at the governmental requirements for their version of education. Then, look at how much money and consideration they're willing to put into that system. It really is a double-slap in the face for all of us.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
as much as you don't like it, environment plays a great deal in who you are and who you will become.. you can change subtle things.. but you're eventually a product of your childhood, your surroundings and your environment.. genes play as much of a role, yet coupled with your environment.. that's how you're shaped..


I think you think it plays a much greater factor in life than I do. I do think at one time I was happy with status-quo, but had made the decision to break away from that. Some do it when they're a pre-teen, a lot in teen/early adulthood, some never do. Our society has been accomodating to our need for change and individuality.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
it's the alternate theories that are holding back any sort of advance.. evolution gets slammed as mere 'nonsense' using the sarcastic remark from dr.hovind, ''monkeys are still having babies.. why don't they make another human''.. now that's not the response of every god-loving citizen.. but people listen to him, buy his videos and buy in to his propoganda..


I don't like "why" questions in a logical argument so I would agree that's a counterproductive comment. People like Jerry Springer too, God only knows why. Shock culture? Love of opinion? I don't know. Again, you can't throw something at a person and expect a specific answer neither by environment nor genetics.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
new ideas always take time to get used to.. in time we'll get used to GM food and people won't be so afraid of trying new things.. it's laughable that you get some hippy greenpeace wacko who's against GM food who says things like ''all food should be organic, that's our aim, for everyone to eat organic food''.. however, if all farmland in the world was used to produce organic food we'd only have enough for 2/3s of the world's population.. not such a bright idea now.. with GM food we'd have enough to end world hunger.. why don't we do it.. because people are afraid of new ideas.. people are afraid to open up to the possibility of evolution and the possibility that there isn't a god.. no god, no heaven.. no heaven, no salvation.. what then becomes the purpose of billions of religious people?.. their only purpose seems to be to serve their time here.. and then be saved.. without religion they lose their purpose.


I agree people are resistant to change. Working in a corporate environment can prove it. I'd eat organic food if it met three requirements. 1.) It tasted good , 2.) It was better for my body than other foods , and 3.) It was cost effective. Hit those three and sure, I'll make the switch. Not because of any propaganda I've been thrown at me but because I choose it. We all have the right to accept or reject what information we're given...despite our environment or genetics.

Secondly, I was indeed lost before God pulled me out of the fire. Yes, I would be lost again if He turned away from me. I don't know where the implied shame is in that. I'd go back to doing what I do. Making money, feeding whatever appetites I have to make it through the day, take care of my family, and searching for a way to repair what I'd done wrong.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
the only difference is.. is that people do wear crosses around their necks and do sleep with a bible beside them.. it's very much a 'religion' thing.. don't confuse it with science.


I know some people who get their jollies from science books.

[edit on 28-7-2006 by saint4God]



posted on Jul, 28 2006 @ 04:02 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
I hope it wasn't the yahoo news link, because that's not showing for me.
If anyone has any mad linking skeelz, mind giving me the hook up? I saw the post refusing it have a working link...


it's not my fault it doesn't ''show'' it for you.. i'm not your babysitter.. i'd take the time to find some links perhaps, but i feel my efforts would be wasted as i doubt anything would truely ''show'' it for you.. so feel free to use a little known website called www.google.com.. i'm sure you'll find it helpful..



I guess we're not "sheeple" after all



wishful thinking?




Here's the difference, nobody forces another to believe in God. Schools do FORCE you to learn the material they teach else you fail and have to do it again.


first time i've imagined you angry.. well maybe not angry.. passionate perhaps?

well at one point in time it would be considered blasphemy to say something like 'god does not exist'.. i'm sure you would also be aware of the punishments should you ever say such a thing.. i'd pretty much say that's forcefulness.. it doesn't really allow you a choice..

and correct me if i'm wrong but the JWs we get knocking on my door.. i don't think they're selling me cupcakes..

school forces you to learn.. but it doesn't force you to believe in evolution.. the JWs rather than teaching you about jesus, they want you to believe in him.. that's the difference.. school will teach you but not force you to have any belief.. religion is the opposite.. it'll teach you.. but only if you're willing to believe.. like you've said a thousand times to get that 'personal proof' you have to believe and have faith.. that i would call forcing people to believe, otherwise they can't get the answers they're looking for..



You're not legally obligated to go to church. You are legally obligated to go to school.


you can be home schooled and not have to learn subjects that may disagree with your beliefs. i know because that's why my christian friend was so sheltered from anything else other than christianity.



but you ARE required to have high school completed to go to college.


maybe it's different in america, but here there are various courses that you can do at college that 'do not' require prior grades, GCSE's, high school and so on.



Secondly, I was indeed lost before God pulled me out of the fire. Yes, I would be lost again if He turned away from me. I don't know where the implied shame is in that. I'd go back to doing what I do. Making money, feeding whatever appetites I have to make it through the day, take care of my family, and searching for a way to repair what I'd done wrong.


you associate god turning away from you with you doing something wrong.. do you live in fear that you might do something wrong and that would be the consequence? you seem like you've thought about that moment if it did come.. maybe you're anticipating it..

the phrase 'he pulled me out of the fire'.. i guess implies you're saying he saved you.. he was your salvation.. the difference is that evolution is not my belief or salvation.. i don't ''get'' anything from believing in evolution.. yet people ''get'' something from being religious.. it's basic human compulsion to almost never do anything unconditionally.. the fact that you get something from believing in god means that it's not unconditional.. belief in evolution is unconditional, which is why i find it the more 'sound' belief of the two..



I know some people who get their jollies from science books.


i'm sure in your circle that's not uncommon.. but lets leave sexual preferences and fetishes for another thread..



posted on Jul, 31 2006 @ 09:03 AM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
it's not my fault it doesn't ''show'' it for you.. i'm not your babysitter.. i'd take the time to find some links perhaps, but i feel my efforts would be wasted as i doubt anything would truely ''show'' it for you.. so feel free to use a little known website called www.google.com.. i'm sure you'll find it helpful..


Heh. I work to quote every source I have on every post and provide a working link to all of them. If the link isn't working for others, I quote the relevant portions. I'm beginning to believe this "evidence" doesn't exist now. Thanks for your lack of help. I'll be sure not to ask for it again.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
wishful thinking?


Can't handle a Christian skeptic? You surprise me shauny.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
first time i've imagined you angry.. well maybe not angry.. passionate perhaps?


Sorry, didn't mean to come across as angry. I did highlight some words for emphasis but am not angry. I am concerned about the unilateral undisputed faith put into our education system.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
well at one point in time it would be considered blasphemy to say something like 'god does not exist'.. i'm sure you would also be aware of the punishments should you ever say such a thing.. i'd pretty much say that's forcefulness.. it doesn't really allow you a choice..


It was blasphemy during the Spanish Inquisition, but that wasn't about beliefs. It was about power and money, neither of which are supported by the Book (nor God, nor Christ as it describes). It was not the only example where a belief system was exploited for a conquest of absolute rule. Show me where God said to do what they did in the Inquisition.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
and correct me if i'm wrong but the JWs we get knocking on my door.. i don't think they're selling me cupcakes..


What?


Originally posted by shaunybaby
school forces you to learn.. but it doesn't force you to believe in evolution..


Along that line, school then should force you to learn about Christianity...after all, it doesn't force you to believe it, right?


Originally posted by shaunybaby
the JWs rather than teaching you about jesus, they want you to believe in him.. that's the difference.. school will teach you but not force you to have any belief.. religion is the opposite.. it'll teach you.. but only if you're willing to believe..


It sounds like you have a beef with Jehovahs Witness, not God or Christianity. I'll be candid, I have a beef with them too. So, let's say we agree on this point and move along.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
like you've said a thousand times to get that 'personal proof' you have to believe and have faith.. that i would call forcing people to believe, otherwise they can't get the answers they're looking for..


How does my personal proof force anyone to believe? I'll contest that (as I've said many, many timese before), saying my personal proof will not make anyone else believe. Hence the word personal. If someone wants to obtain their own personal proof, that's what I'm helping with. I have no supernatural powers to force people to believe. I do less than the teachers in school. I do not ask for people to learn my experiences and regurgitate what I've told them. I only share what did happen and offer assistance if they want it. Not once have I said a person must go through me to find God, nor would I want them to. You can in fact get the answers you're looking for (just as everyone else can) by going to God direct. He's got all the answers, not me.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
you can be home schooled and not have to learn subjects that may disagree with your beliefs. i know because that's why my christian friend was so sheltered from anything else other than christianity.


Same for home schooled Wiccans and Athiests. What's your point? I wasn't home schooled so this doesn't apply to me. I went to 11 years of the publik edukashun system, and 1 year private school (which I felt was behind the times of academics).


Originally posted by shaunybaby
maybe it's different in america, but here there are various courses that you can do at college that 'do not' require prior grades, GCSE's, high school and so on.


All the best getting into a decent college with that.



Originally posted by shaunybaby
you associate god turning away from you with you doing something wrong.. do you live in fear that you might do something wrong and that would be the consequence?


No. We're talking about an "if" scenario that you conjured up, doctor. I was merely answering the question as requested. I'm also not foolish enough to say what God is or is not going to do.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
you seem like you've thought about that moment if it did come.. maybe you're anticipating it..


Nice try my devisive friend. These tactics are useless when the truth is already known. I cannot deny proof I've already been given.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
the phrase 'he pulled me out of the fire'.. i guess implies you're saying he saved you.. he was your salvation..


Yes. Sorry, didn't meant to imply so I'll say it directly. He saved me, He was my salvation.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
the difference is that evolution is not my belief or salvation.. i don't ''get'' anything from believing in evolution.. yet people ''get'' something from being religious.. it's basic human compulsion to almost never do anything unconditionally.. the fact that you get something from believing in god means that it's not unconditional..


It is a gift you get, not something deserved. I cannot possibly do something to deserve an eternity in heaven. Even if I did great things from the day I was born until the day I died, that could not possibly equate to a forever of happiness. I didn't expect to receive this gift, I just wanted out of a bad situation during this life. The gift was quite a bonus!


Originally posted by shaunybaby
belief in evolution is unconditional, which is why i find it the more 'sound' belief of the two..


Why is it more 'sound'? Also, there are plenty of unconditionals once a person believes in God. The greatest of which is unconditional love. Pound for pound, you'll get a whole lot more unconditionals for believing in Him than anything else.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
i'm sure in your circle that's not uncommon.. but lets leave sexual preferences and fetishes for another thread..


Oh snap! Cold busted, blah blah blah, petty insults. You sure showed me! How could I ever show my face in public again? Honestly Shauny, do you feel like more of a man(?) with this garbage? Is this revealing an insecurity you'd like to share with the group?

I'm starting to become disinterested in the broken-record commenting and useless jabs upon one's character.

[edit on 31-7-2006 by saint4God]



posted on Jul, 31 2006 @ 12:11 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Heh. I work to quote every source I have on every post and provide a working link to all of them. If the link isn't working for others, I quote the relevant portions. I'm beginning to believe this "evidence" doesn't exist now. Thanks for your lack of help. I'll be sure not to ask for it again.


en.wikipedia.org...

Start there..



Show me where God said to do what they did in the Inquisition.


God doesn't need to.. he kills people alone.. noah's ark, wiping out everyone and everything apart from one family.. plagues of egypt, killing first born son's of egyptians.. there's plenty of things in the bible showing God's wraith and love for killing innocent first born sons etc.. are you trying to say God doesn't advocate murder?


Originally posted by shaunybaby
and correct me if i'm wrong but the JWs we get knocking on my door.. i don't think they're selling me cupcakes..



What?


It's sarcasm. It's obvious they're not selling cupcakes.. they're selling Jesus.



Along that line, school then should force you to learn about Christianity...after all, it doesn't force you to believe it, right?


What do you think RE (religious education) is? In fact in the last few years RE has become a full GCSE that you do on par with maths, science, english etc..



All the best getting into a decent college with that.



Well even as an adult you can do those courses.. the college course i did was a national deploma in sound engineering.. and that's also available to anyone whatever your previous education, just so long as they think you can do the course.. and you can then get in to a decent university with that college deploma as it's worth a certain amount of points.. pass is minimum grade, and distinction is highest.. so you can still get a college deploma and university degree and not have to have passed with flying colors at high school..



It is a gift you get, not something deserved. I cannot possibly do something to deserve an eternity in heaven. Even if I did great things from the day I was born until the day I died, that could not possibly equate to a forever of happiness. I didn't expect to receive this gift, I just wanted out of a bad situation during this life. The gift was quite a bonus!


if you could live your life 'the christian way' without the concept of heaven, i'd be all for it.. but it's that 'gift' you speak of that makes it all wrong.. it's basic human compulsion to 'want' something in return.. a hypothetical 'how many people would be christian, if there was no promise of salvation(heaven)' the answer would be very few.. the same applies for all religion.. there's a promise in all of them if you believe, whether it's salvation, heaven, afterlife, re-born etc.. they all give you gifts.. it's the gift that makes it all so appealing..



Why is it more 'sound'? Also, there are plenty of unconditionals once a person believes in God. The greatest of which is unconditional love. Pound for pound, you'll get a whole lot more unconditionals for believing in Him than anything else.


because you don't 'get' anything from evolution by believing in it.. hence it's unconditional.. whereas with christianity you do 'get' something from it.. gifts and so on.. if god loves you unconditionally then that's another gift you get and another reason why it makes christian beliefs even more conditional..

it's like believe now and you get salvation, heaven, unconditional love 24 hours a day 7 days a week etc.. with evolution it's just 'this is what we believe happened over millions and billions of years'.. that's it.. simple.. no salvation or heaven melarchy.. evolution is totally unconditional.. most people find it hard to believe or do anything unconditionally.. which is why i said that evolution is the more sound belief..


Originally posted by shaunybaby
i'm sure in your circle that's not uncommon.. but lets leave sexual preferences and fetishes for another thread..



Oh snap! Cold busted, blah blah blah, petty insults. You sure showed me! How could I ever show my face in public again? Honestly Shauny, do you feel like more of a man(?) with this garbage? Is this revealing an insecurity you'd like to share with the group?


I was joking..

[edit on 31-7-2006 by shaunybaby]



posted on Jul, 31 2006 @ 12:47 PM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
en.wikipedia.org...

Start there..


Let's just assume for only one moment "wikipedia" is a valid source of information. Here's the "proof" it puts forward as evidence:

"Evidence of evolution
Main article: Evidence of evolution
Evolution has left numerous records which reveal the history of different species. Fossils, together with the comparative anatomy of present-day plants and animals, constitute the morphological, or anatomical, record. By comparing the anatomies of both modern and extinct species, paleontologists can infer"

Paleontologists can what?

Look Shauny, this was my college major for four years, there is no new information nor proofs in wikipedia. I read the books it references, they were required reading for future genetic engineer. Try again.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
God doesn't need to.. he kills people alone.. noah's ark, wiping out everyone and everything apart from one family.. plagues of egypt, killing first born son's of egyptians.. there's plenty of things in the bible showing God's wraith


I'm glad we can agree God did not cause the Spanish Inquisition.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
and love for killing innocent first born sons etc..


I get it. You want to be god of God. It's starting to make sense now. How many lives did God create? I guess you don't want to look at that number eh?


Originally posted by shaunybaby
are you trying to say God doesn't advocate murder?


Let God speak for Himself:

"You shall not murder." - Exodus 20:13.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
It's sarcasm. It's obvious they're not selling cupcakes.. they're selling Jesus.


I just don't know what the relevance of Jehovah Witness have to our conversation. You don't like them knocking on your door just as I don't like them knocking on my door. I used to open the door and talk to them, but they eventually stopped coming around. Now a different set comes around and I told them I didn't want to start all over again.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
What do you think RE (religious education) is? In fact in the last few years RE has become a full GCSE that you do on par with maths, science, english etc..


Very interesting, I'd like to find out more about that and would like to know how many schools have adopted it.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Well even as an adult you can do those courses.. the college course i did was a national deploma in sound engineering.. and that's also available to anyone whatever your previous education, just so long as they think you can do the course.. and you can then get in to a decent university with that college deploma as it's worth a certain amount of points.. pass is minimum grade, and distinction is highest.. so you can still get a college deploma and university degree and not have to have passed with flying colors at high school..


Nothing has changed here then. It's all about convincing the Uni that your diploma is good enough.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
if you could live your life 'the christian way' without the concept of heaven, i'd be all for it.. but it's that 'gift' you speak of that makes it all wrong.. it's basic human compulsion to 'want' something in return.. a hypothetical 'how many people would be christian, if there was no promise of salvation(heaven)' the answer would be very few.. the same applies for all religion.. there's a promise in all of them if you believe, whether it's salvation, heaven, afterlife, re-born etc.. they all give you gifts.. it's the gift that makes it all so appealing..


You're absolutely right that people want to get something. Before, I would do nothing unless I got something. I can tell you after receiving that gift, there is no more wanting. I don't try to think and do good things to get something anymore. I do it out of gratitude, thanking God that through His son the cost of my sins are already paid for. My whole motivation has changed.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
because you don't 'get' anything from evolution by believing in it.. hence it's unconditional.. whereas with christianity you do 'get' something from it.. gifts and so on.. if god loves you unconditionally then that's another gift you get and another reason why it makes christian beliefs even more conditional..


I get blessings as He sees fit to give them, but that's not what I meant by unconditional love. What that is, is despite all the times I screw things up, He still loves me.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
it's like believe now and you get salvation, heaven, unconditional love 24 hours a day 7 days a week etc..


Something like that. You don't get heaven on earth, but soon enough.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
with evolution it's just 'this is what we believe happened over millions and billions of years'.. that's it.. simple.. no salvation or heaven melarchy.. evolution is totally unconditional.. most people find it hard to believe or do anything unconditionally.. which is why i said that evolution is the more sound belief..


believe unconditionally? Isn't that called "blind faith"? I'm glad you recognize evolution as a belief. I'm happy with that answer.

[edit on 31-7-2006 by saint4God]



posted on Jul, 31 2006 @ 04:31 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Look Shauny, this was my college major for four years, there is no new information nor proofs in wikipedia. I read the books it references, they were required reading for future genetic engineer. Try again.


If you didn't find the answers you were looking for during a four year college degree, then I don't think a website or two will change that.. Evolution is much easier for me to take on as I have no other beliefs.. For you to believe in evolution may mean to dismiss your religious beliefs or beliefs in God, yet you wouldn't do that as the personal proof you've obtained through the years to you means there is a God no matter what..

So if you find evidence for evolution.. I'm not sure what you'd do with it.. As it conflicts with biblical accounts of creation.. I don't believe the two can tie in together..

So are you looking for lack of evidence to prove that your belief in God is right? That's what seems to be the case..



I'm glad we can agree God did not cause the Spanish Inquisition.


Throughout history there has been killing in the name of God. A perfect example would be islamic extremists. Though he may not be the direct cause.. Human's have managed somehow to be able to murder, slaughter, kill and blow themselves up and use some devine entity as an excuse..



How many lives did God create? I guess you don't want to look at that number eh?


Hypothetically speaking, two..

Why wouldn't I want to look at the number?



Let God speak for Himself:

"You shall not murder." - Exodus 20:13.


Some passages:

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)

So if you don't believe.. you should be put to death.. What about 'thou shalt not murder'.. but if you put to death a non-believer that's o.k..

And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30)

So 'thou shalt not murder' doesn't apply to God? Sure he's devine and all that.. But that still means he's a hypocrit.. I could put some more examples, but I'm sure you get the point..


Originally posted by shaunybaby
What do you think RE (religious education) is? In fact in the last few years RE has become a full GCSE that you do on par with maths, science, english etc..



Very interesting, I'd like to find out more about that and would like to know how many schools have adopted it.


Well while I was in 'high school' doing GCSEs we did RE, however it wasn't a full GCSE like maths etc.. However, since I left at my old school they now do it as a full GCSE.. We did RE throughout middle and high school.. you learn about all kinds of religious beliefs and If I remember correctly we also did daily life things too, such as relationships, marriage, morals, and so on..

So we were in a way 'forced' to learn about other religions, but it was mainly to teach about how you should respect other religions.. Just because someone is black, doens't mean they can't be English, and just because someone is muslim, it doesn't mean they should be treated differently etc.. However, it didn't force you to believe their beliefs, as with evolution in science, school didn't force you to believe in that..



believe unconditionally? Isn't that called "blind faith"? I'm glad you recognize evolution as a belief. I'm happy with that answer.


no 'unconditional' is doing something even though you get nothing in return.. it has absolutely nothing to do with blind faith.. not sure why you would think it does.. that's just odd and random..

evolution isn't a belief in the same respect as a religious belief..



posted on Jul, 31 2006 @ 10:41 PM
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saint, have you ever picked up "the origin of species" by darwin?

have you tried to look there?
if you haven't you shouldn't say that there is no evidence.



posted on Aug, 1 2006 @ 08:19 AM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
If you didn't find the answers you were looking for during a four year college degree, then I don't think a website or two will change that..


I'm open to any news. The "olds" though don't contain solid grounding/data/proof/evidence/mechanisms/working models.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Evolution is much easier for me to take on as I have no other beliefs.. For you to believe in evolution may mean to dismiss your religious beliefs or beliefs in God,


How do you figure? There are many believers who agree with evolution. Some scientists, some not. Evolution will not make or break belief in God.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
yet you wouldn't do that as the personal proof you've obtained through the years to you means there is a God no matter what..


Who said that? Besides you that is...


Originally posted by shaunybaby
So if you find evidence for evolution.. I'm not sure what you'd do with it.. As it conflicts with biblical accounts of creation.. I don't believe the two can tie in together..


I'm not a "young-earther" and find the timeline set up for that theory equally unfounded.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
So are you looking for lack of evidence to prove that your belief in God is right? That's what seems to be the case..


Negative, I'm good to go there, thanks. Else, I would not be bold enough to say "yes, there is a God". My personality is shy, skeptical, and afraid to be wrong...so I wouldn't have the ability on my own to assert this statement without it being the case. It appears you have this hobby of trying to get inside my head and explain it all away, so feel free to do so with these internal workings.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Throughout history there has been killing in the name of God. A perfect example would be islamic extremists. Though he may not be the direct cause.. Human's have managed somehow to be able to murder, slaughter, kill and blow themselves up and use some devine entity as an excuse..


I agree, humans have managed this and use some divine entity as an excuse...and I'm very very glad to hear this recognition come to the front of the discussion. This by no means is God's fault, rather displays what happens when humans try to "play God". Imagine how He must feel about that.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Hypothetically speaking, two..


Even if you're not of the thought that he didn't micro-create every living person (though the Bible says He knew us before we were even in our mother's womb), then perhaps you can agree he macro-managed the existance of every living person through setting up the mechanism from those original two. In that case he would have indirectly created everyone. And, he gets final say when everyone dies as well. There's only one person in recorded history that I know of who did not experience death. All others, the same as being created also died in the flesh.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Why wouldn't I want to look at the number?


I digress. I'd never seen you mention it, though you were a plenty in mention how how many died. Let's talk more about the "how many were created" number and we'll find that both numbers are equal with a net gain of one created without dying. There may be others, don't know, but we haven't record of them.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Some passages:

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)

So if you don't believe.. you should be put to death.. What about 'thou shalt not murder'.. but if you put to death a non-believer that's o.k..


I don't see any cavaets on the "thou shalt not murder" law. Christ goes to the extreme example of one's enemy here:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you," - Matthew 5:43-44

This directly relates to what you've quoted in 2 Chronicles...and is partially the reason why there's an "Old Testament" and a "New Testament". The old way was an eye for an eye, legally that's how justice was done. However Christ being the fulfillment of the Law, the Law that God gave to Moses, he shows how "You shall not murder" fits, makes sense, and how it should be viewed with heart...not just a law that all must follow. I welcome other's viewpoints on the Chronicles passage as well.

Further perspectives on thought are here:

"The Pharisees and the teachers of the law were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal on the Sabbath. But Jesus knew what they were thinking and said to the man with the shriveled hand, "Get up and stand in front of everyone." So he got up and stood there.

Then Jesus said to them, "I ask you, which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?" - Luke 6:7-9



Originally posted by shaunybaby
And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30)

So 'thou shalt not murder' doesn't apply to God?


Nope. Since he created all life, he also removes it.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Sure he's devine and all that.. But that still means he's a hypocrit.. I could put some more examples, but I'm sure you get the point..


What happens when you spray-paint a public bridge? You're a vandal and a criminal by destroying property that isn't yours. What happens when you spray-paint your house? Nothing. Why is that? The action is the same.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Well while I was in 'high school' doing GCSEs we did RE, however it wasn't a full GCSE like maths etc.. However, since I left at my old school they now do it as a full GCSE.. We did RE throughout middle and high school.. you learn about all kinds of religious beliefs and If I remember correctly we also did daily life things too, such as relationships, marriage, morals, and so on..


I think I would've benefited greatly from these things. There was a "parenting" class that was implied to be exclusively for girls, but seemed to skip anything that had to do with religion, marriage, morals, relationships and so on. Sounds like a valuable inclusion and thanks for the details.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
So we were in a way 'forced' to learn about other religions, but it was mainly to teach about how you should respect other religions.. Just because someone is black, doens't mean they can't be English, and just because someone is muslim, it doesn't mean they should be treated differently etc.. However, it didn't force you to believe their beliefs, as with evolution in science, school didn't force you to believe in that..


I think your school (and perhaps others these days) are more fair and balanced then. I never had that benefit, though appreciate your testimony here.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
no 'unconditional' is doing something even though you get nothing in return.. it has absolutely nothing to do with blind faith.. not sure why you would think it does.. that's just odd and random..


I see, thanks for that clarification. We were thinking about two different types of unconditional then. I was thinking resolute.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
evolution isn't a belief in the same respect as a religious belief..


Why not?

[edit on 1-8-2006 by saint4God]



posted on Aug, 1 2006 @ 08:23 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
saint, have you ever picked up "the origin of species" by darwin?


Yes and many many many times had every science book in college reference back to it. It's the "bible" of evolution.


Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
have you tried to look there?


Ya, my thought before reading it was that God works through this mechanism...but then I found a lack of mechanism.


Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
if you haven't you shouldn't say that there is no evidence.


Agreed. Since it's the valued staple of faith in the evolution community, I agree a person should read it before engaging in the discussion. Further, if Orgin was the "be all" and "end all", not only would we not be having this conversation, but there'd be no other references and "surprise breakthroughs" trying so desperately hard to make it so.

[edit on 1-8-2006 by saint4God]



posted on Aug, 1 2006 @ 10:33 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God
How do you figure?


Evolution conflicts with the Genesis account of creation..



There are many believers who agree with evolution. Evolution will not make or break belief in God.


These are the people who to still believe in God, alter their beliefs to allow modern concepts such as evolution, without straying too far from their religious beliefs.



Who said that? Besides you that is...


Well your personal proof includes such things as hearing God, speaking with him and getting unconditional love from him.. Therefore no matter what the outcome of evolution being proven, in your mind God would still be real.. right?



I'm not a "young-earther" and find the timeline set up for that theory equally unfounded.


I didn't suggest that you were a young-earther. Evolution conflicts with the Genesis creation myth.. The only way the two tie in together is if the creation myth is not meant to be literally interpretated.. But if that's the case then why interpret the rest of the bible literally..



I agree, humans have managed this and use some divine entity as an excuse...and I'm very very glad to hear this recognition come to the front of the discussion. This by no means is God's fault, rather displays what happens when humans try to "play God". Imagine how He must feel about that.


Today maybe God is the excuse to blow yourself up, yet in the bible it tells us that on many occasions God instructed people to murder, to sacrifice and so on.. God's no stranger to bloodshed, punishment and death in the bible.. He's the one who sent those 10 plagues to Egypt and killed first born sons.. Yet, his feelings might be hurt if you use him as an excuse to murder someone?



Nope. Since he created all life, he also removes it.


So therefore it's probable that he sent that tidal wave crashing in to thailand.. killing around 100,000 people..

And you want me to believe he's all-loving? To me it sounds like a sick and twisted creator..


Originally posted by shaunybaby
evolution isn't a belief in the same respect as a religious belief..




Why not?


For one you idol and worship a God.. With evolution you don't.. That's one reason. Want more?



posted on Aug, 1 2006 @ 11:15 AM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
Evolution conflicts with the Genesis account of creation..


When man was made from the dust of the earth...you don't see that as a rough description of trans-species evolution? Some people do.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
These are the people who to still believe in God, alter their beliefs to allow modern concepts such as evolution, without straying too far from their religious beliefs.


Why do you see God and nature as opponents? God used nature as the mechanism several times, from flood, to plagues, to various other things you've already listed.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Well your personal proof includes such things as hearing God, speaking with him and getting unconditional love from him.. Therefore no matter what the outcome of evolution being proven, in your mind God would still be real.. right?


Yes, but I did not say I would ignore any facts or proofs of evolution as you'd stated.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
I didn't suggest that you were a young-earther.


Fair enough, I meant it as an independent statement of position.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Evolution conflicts with the Genesis creation myth.. The only way the two tie in together is if the creation myth is not meant to be literally interpretated.. But if that's the case then why interpret the rest of the bible literally..


I see, so according to Jesus we are in fact sheep or goats, wheat or chaff, vines or dead branches? Many things in the Bible are described to us since we don't yet understand the literal concepts. Though, through literal concepts, we're able to make sense of these descriptions. The Bible does make clear what is to be taken literally, so no use trying to dodge laws and truths because of it.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Today maybe God is the excuse to blow yourself up, yet in the bible it tells us that on many occasions God instructed people to murder, to sacrifice and so on.. God's no stranger to bloodshed, punishment and death in the bible.. He's the one who sent those 10 plagues to Egypt and killed first born sons.. Yet, his feelings might be hurt if you use him as an excuse to murder someone?


Yes, because that would be a lie, bearing false witness, and taking His name in vain. We cannot use Him for our excuses, saying He's telling us things He's not for our own personal gain. We set ourselves up as god, that violates commandment 1 and what Christ said about the greatest commandment. Usually when one commandment is broken, so are others.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
So therefore it's probable that he sent that tidal wave crashing in to thailand.. killing around 100,000 people..


I think it's prejudicial to say it's probable. Possible perhaps, but as He has said, "my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways" so certainly He's gonna do stuff we ain't gonna understand. Here's the difference. When He does something, He knows what He's doing and is doing them absolutely for the right reasons. We don't.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
And you want me to believe he's all-loving? To me it sounds like a sick and twisted creator..


Judge Him as you wish...I hope He's not as quick in His judgement with you.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
For one you idol and worship a God.. With evolution you don't.. That's one reason. Want more?


Yes, because indeed science does become an idol. In science people do lay their trust, hope and faith without evidence as proven by the theory of evolution. The god then becomes science. So, with that similarity, what do you have as a difference?



posted on Aug, 1 2006 @ 11:35 AM
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Excellent article on evolution, which proves it enough with factual data of scientific findings, as well as proof of natural selection over billions of years.
newton.nap.edu...



posted on Aug, 1 2006 @ 11:35 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God
When man was made from the dust of the earth...you don't see that as a rough description of trans-species evolution? Some people do.


No because evolution doesn't say that a devine creator made two humans from dirt and who also made the earth, the trees, the universe and so on..

Evolution suggests we share a common ancestor with apes.. Yet in Genesis it doesn't tell us about these inbetween species.. we just start with humans and apes were made as seperate mammals.. and that every animal was made 'just-so'.. rather than animals evolving from lower species etc..



Why do you see God and nature as opponents? God used nature as the mechanism several times, from flood, to plagues, to various other things you've already listed.


or perhaps these floods were natural occuring process.. and the plagues, there's no evidence to suggest the egyptians had all those jew slaves, the story is a myth, in fact Moses is a myth and so is the 40 year wonder in the desert.. it's a hypothetical at best.. so I don't believe that God uses nature at all..

There are stories of God using nature as it ties in with the whole him being the devine creator of everything as he controls nature.. it was a way to explain nature back in the day.. such as thunder.. ooooo God's angry.. ooooo...



Yes, because that would be a lie, bearing false witness, and taking His name in vain. We cannot use Him for our excuses, saying He's telling us things He's not for our own personal gain. We set ourselves up as god, that violates commandment 1 and what Christ said about the greatest commandment. Usually when one commandment is broken, so are others.


But in the bible God instructs people to kill.. sacrifice etc..

Although it's mostly old testament stuff and well it's pretty much a different God back then.. he creates everything, get's a bit pissed off cause everyone's doing bad things so he has a big flood, and he's really quite a mean God, then new testament comes along and he's like all happy and loving and this is the God people prefer.. so they ignore the old testament and say.. yeah none of that matters, we only take notice of the new testament stuff with Jesus in cause it's like so much better..



I think it's prejudicial to say it's probable. Possible perhaps, but as He has said, "my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways" so certainly He's gonna do stuff we ain't gonna understand. Here's the difference. When He does something, He knows what He's doing and is doing them absolutely for the right reasons. We don't.


So you make the connection of God being intune with nature.. yet when it's a tsunami that kills lots of people, all of a sudden God isn't part of nature and can't control it no longer.. hmmmm..



Yes, because indeed science does become an idol. In science people do lay their trust, hope and faith without evidence as proven by the theory of evolution. The god then becomes science. So, with that similarity, what do you have as a difference?


it's a belief WITH evidence.. also don't try and downgrade evolution by saying 'theory'.. that's neither here nor there.. nothing will ever change evolution to be known as 'the law/fact of evolution'.. it will always be a theory.. the same as the theory of gravity..

here's another difference.. you pray for miracles, pray for hope, pray for people, pray for anything and so on to your idol.. this concept of praying to some devine being is not adopted by science.. there's no science god that you pray to to make your experiment work..



posted on Aug, 1 2006 @ 12:14 PM
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Originally posted by Purgatory
Excellent article on evolution, which proves it enough with factual data of scientific findings, as well as proof of natural selection over billions of years.
newton.nap.edu...


This is the exact kind of language I'm talking about: "evolutionists" (who by the way are people who already believe in evolution, duh
, "favor the hypothesis that modern Homo sapiens, individuals very much like us, evolved from more archaic humans about 100,000 to 150,000 years ago."

It's not even a theory! Just a hypothesis. In fact, this article says the above is wrong:

"a new study of the 1967 fossil site indicates the earliest known members of our species, Homo sapiens, roamed Africa about 195,000 years ago. "

www.eurekalert.org...

Still we have no mechanism/data/model, etc etc., just creative, comparative analogies.

[edit on 1-8-2006 by saint4God]



posted on Aug, 1 2006 @ 12:40 PM
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is natural selection not a mechanism?

what mechanism does intelligence design by?

does anyone realize that ID indulges in the creation of LIFE while evolution deals with the progressive differentiations in organisms?

they deal with 2 different feel



posted on Aug, 1 2006 @ 01:08 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Purgatory
Excellent article on evolution, which proves it enough with factual data of scientific findings, as well as proof of natural selection over billions of years.
newton.nap.edu...


This is the exact kind of language I'm talking about: "evolutionists" (who by the way are people who already believe in evolution, duh
, "favor the hypothesis that modern Homo sapiens, individuals very much like us, evolved from more archaic humans about 100,000 to 150,000 years ago."

It's not even a theory! Just a hypothesis. In fact, this article says the above is wrong:

"a new study of the 1967 fossil site indicates the earliest known members of our species, Homo sapiens, roamed Africa about 195,000 years ago. "

www.eurekalert.org...

Still we have no mechanism/data/model, etc etc., just creative, comparative analogies.

[edit on 1-8-2006 by saint4God]

It's well more than just a simple theory. Perhaps you should re-read it.

Where's your "Evidence" then?



posted on Aug, 1 2006 @ 01:18 PM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby

Originally posted by saint4God
When man was made from the dust of the earth...you don't see that as a rough description of trans-species evolution? Some people do.


No because evolution doesn't say that a devine creator made two humans from dirt and who also made the earth, the trees, the universe and so on..


I was speaking of the mechanism, not originator. God can be accredited for both the Biblical origin and evolutionary origin. Trans-speciation means that from a single proto-cell (perhaps in dirt), every form of life evolved up to the humans we are today. I'm surprise I have to review this definition as just a few posts ago you were tell me to look up evolution.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Evolution suggests we share a common ancestor with apes..


Not just apes, evolution goes further back to single-cellular organisms. Trans-speciation. Evolving from non-living chemical processes to what we now recognize as life. Evolution is the the change of all biology with various branchings off over time. Delta over variable t = evolution


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Yet in Genesis it doesn't tell us about these inbetween species.. we just start with humans and apes were made as seperate mammals.. and that every animal was made 'just-so'.. rather than animals evolving from lower species etc..


Just sharing the thoughts of those who take the Bible as describing the mechanism. They also say these "days" are over-simplifications of thousands/millions of years. Perhaps someone who absolutely believes this to be the case would be better to defend it.



Originally posted by shaunybaby
or perhaps these floods were natural occuring process.. and the plagues, there's no evidence to suggest the egyptians had all those jew slaves, the story is a myth, in fact Moses is a myth and so is the 40 year wonder in the desert.. it's a hypothetical at best.. so I don't believe that God uses nature at all..


Sure, you can deny history because you didn't witness it. There are warnings from great minds about that though. Something about being doomed to repeat...but then again Jorge Augustín Nicolás Ruiz de Santayana might not have really existed either. All things just seem to magically appear within our lifetime as we live and see it, eh?


Originally posted by shaunybaby
There are stories of God using nature as it ties in with the whole him being the devine creator of everything as he controls nature.. it was a way to explain nature back in the day.. such as thunder.. ooooo God's angry.. ooooo...


Thunder alone wasn't used in describing God. He had to do other things like speak in order to be believed. Why? Because there were Shaunys back in the Old Testament days as well. This may be a shocker, but you're not the first nor last skeptic in existance.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
But in the bible God instructs people to kill.. sacrifice etc..


Let's look at your examples.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Although it's mostly old testament stuff and well it's pretty much a different God back then.. he creates everything, get's a bit pissed off cause everyone's doing bad things so he has a big flood, and he's really quite a mean God, then new testament comes along and he's like all happy and loving and this is the God people prefer.. so they ignore the old testament and say.. yeah none of that matters, we only take notice of the new testament stuff with Jesus in cause it's like so much better..


Remind me not to pick up your translation of the Bible. Mine says in the Old Testament:

Exodus 34:6
"And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness,"

Who else speaks of God's abounding love and faithfulness? Oh that's right, Christ does. And, it also says "slow to anger" not "without anger" and for good reason.

And in the New Testament:

Revelation 15:1
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God's wrath is completed."

Plagues? Like in Egypt? Hm...what are the odds. Probably because it's the same God?


Originally posted by shaunybaby
So you make the connection of God being intune with nature.. yet when it's a tsunami that kills lots of people, all of a sudden God isn't part of nature and can't control it no longer.. hmmmm..


I did not say He cannot control nature, that would indeed be foolish of me and in error. I have however seen cases in the Bible where He worked through the mechanism we know as nature, as well as work against or without it. Nature, being the laws of consistency we've come to know and expect from the universe can be a micro or macro managed project. Which it is, I do not know. I think a solid case can be made either way.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
it's a belief WITH evidence.. also don't try and downgrade evolution by saying 'theory'.. that's neither here nor there.. nothing will ever change evolution to be known as 'the law/fact of evolution'.. it will always be a theory.. the same as the theory of gravity..


Yet there are laws and facts in science. Gravity is testible, we can gather data, there is a mechanism, a model and an entire physics devoted to it. I'm surprised you're quick to buddy-buddy them up with each other. The differences should be as night and day for those who've studied science.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
here's another difference.. you pray for miracles, pray for hope, pray for people, pray for anything and so on to your idol.. this concept of praying to some devine being is not adopted by science.. there's no science god that you pray to to make your experiment work..


Point of clarification, I do not pray anything to an idol. I pray to God, but that doesn't "make things work". Things work whether I pray or not. I can only make a request and express gratitude.

True, you do not pray in science so one difference there. But again, both rely on faith, hope, trust and belief. Feel free to point out other differences so we can get a full dynamic whether it's only this point or others that they're dissimilar.

[edit on 1-8-2006 by saint4God]




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