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Religious Persecution in Vietnam

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posted on Apr, 5 2014 @ 12:46 AM
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As many are focused on the rise of religious conflict in the west, old conflicts are reigniting in the east. Several agencies are bringing to light the oppressive practices of the government of Vietnam.

Religious Persecution in Vietnam: Government Spies, Forced Renunciations of Faith
www.theepochtimes.com...


Persecution for religious belief in Vietnam is growing worse, according to witnesses that appeared at the a recent congressional hearing.

For the first time in the history of the Tom Lantos Human Rights Commission commission, witnesses testified from Vietnam via video. All the witnesses agreed that the Vietnam regime is tightening up on freedom of expression and association as well as imprisoning religious leaders, dissidents, and human rights defenders, some with long sentences.

. . .

Speaking live from Vietnam on March 26, Father Phan Van Loi said, through translation, that many practical activities of the Catholic church are limited or forbidden by the regime’s decrees. Religious organizations are not recognized as legal entities. The government controls the recruitment, ordination, and assignment of the clergy, he said. It also strictly controls travel abroad of church members and clergy.

. . .

Per the 2004 Ordinance on Religion and Belief, the regime requires all religious organizations to be registered and their activities pre-approved. Refusal to register risks having one’s activities deemed illegal and exposes members to arrest and harassment.

“More recently, the 2013 Government Decree 92 banned all religious, cultural, and traditional activities—even when conducted in private homes—unless they are registered, pre-approved, or officiated by a government entity,” states a Lantos Commission statement . . .


A global schism on the subject of religion appears to be expressing itself in in-humane fashion as usual. Historically such oppression on either side has rarely led to any sort of peace but rather breeds discontent and revolution. What are we seeing here ATS? Every day it seems a new crisis is bubbling in some corner of the world. Further information can be found below;

Hmong: Increased Religious Persecution and Human Rights Violations
www.unpo.org...


Contrary to some reports, many of the Hmong now facing persecution are Catholics, Protestants or Animist believers who gathered to appeal to Hanoi for land reform, religious freedom, human rights and an end to illegal logging by VPA-owned companies.

. . .

Most Hmong are traditional Animist believers, but significant numbers are also Protestant Christians and Catholics.


A new era of abuse in Southeast Asia
www.startribune.com...

-FBB
edit on 5-4-2014 by FriedBabelBroccoli because: 101




posted on Apr, 5 2014 @ 01:00 AM
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If you know history you would know about JFK and the Roman Catholic churches macinations in Vietnam the Christian faith has never been popular with the regime since the 1960's at best its been tolerated,looks like that tolerence is ending.



posted on Apr, 5 2014 @ 01:09 AM
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khnum
If you know history you would know about JFK and the Roman Catholic churches macinations in Vietnam the Christian faith has never been popular with the regime since the 1960's at best its been tolerated,looks like that tolerence is ending.


Yes, that is also covered in the articles I linked to.

But why now?

Decades later and it is not limited to Christian denominations but extends to Animists and human right's leaders as well. What do you think could be triggering this. The connection to religious unrest after Pope JP 2nd is two popes ago, it just doesn't make sense that it would be at the source of the conflict.

-FBB
edit on 5-4-2014 by FriedBabelBroccoli because: 101



posted on Apr, 5 2014 @ 01:12 AM
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reply to post by khnum
 


There was tension from Catholicsim long before that. Wiki



Catholicism came to widespread prominence when the French missionary priest and Bishop of Adran Pigneau de Behaine played a key role towards the end of the 18th century. He had come to southern Vietnam to proselytise.[5][6][7][8][9][10] Pigneau then became the confidant of Nguyễn Ánh the last of the Nguyễn Lords, then engaged in civil war.[5][11] Pigneau hoped that by helping in a Nguyễn Ánh victory, he would gain concessions for the Catholic Church in Vietnam.[12]

Pigneau and other missionaries bought military supplies and enlisted European soldiers for Nguyễn Ánh and they took part in military operations.[13][14][15][16][17][18][18][19]

Nguyen conquered Vietnam and became Emperor Gia Long. He tolerated the Catholic faith and permitted unimpeded missionary activities out of respect to his benefactors.[20] The missionary activity was dominated by the Spanish in Tonkin and French in the central and southern regions.[21] At the time of his death, there were six European bishops in Vietnam.[21] The population of Christians was estimated at 300,000 in Tonkin and 60,000 in Cochinchina.[22]

The peaceful coexistence of Catholicism alongside the classical Confucian system of Vietnam was not to last.[23] Gia Long appointed Minh Mạng his successor for his deeply conservative Confucianism; his first son's lineage had converted to Catholicism and abandoned their Confucian heritage.[24]

A power struggle then developed between Minh Mạng and pro-Catholic, pro-Western officials who wanted to maintain the power they had been given by Gia Long.[25][26][26][26] Eventually, 2,000 Vietnamese Catholic troops fought under the command of Father Nguyễn Văn Tâm in an attempt to depose Minh Mạng and install a Catholic emperor.[27]

The revolt was put down, and restrictions were placed on Catholicism. Persistent rebellions occurred throughout the Nguyễn Dynasty, many led by Catholic priests intent on installing a Christian monarch. During the French colonial campaign against Vietnam from 1858 to 1883, many Catholics joined with the French in helping to establish colonialism by fighting against the Vietnamese government. Once colonial rule was established the Catholics were rewarded with preferential treatment in government posts, education, and the church was given vast tracts of royal land that had been seized.

After the end of the French rule and Vietnam division in mid-1950s, Catholicism declined in the North, where the communists regarded it as a reactionary force opposed to national liberation and social progress.


Like you said it has been tolerated.



posted on Apr, 5 2014 @ 01:28 AM
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Well, after centuries of:-

Burning people at the stake!

Hoarding the wealth of nations.

Raping children.

Covering up the above crimes.

Doing deals with nasty people .... like Hitler.


Someone wants to do something about it.

Good on them, these churches need some serious controls put on them.

P



posted on Apr, 5 2014 @ 01:32 AM
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reply to post by Grimpachi
 


So you think it is a political move?

Those lands which the various churches were given are being reclaimed by the government according to testimony. The majority of the claims are coming from the ethnic minority of the population, do you think this is also due to 60 year old connections to the catholic churches?

How do you think this lines up with national liberation and social progress?

-FBB



posted on Apr, 5 2014 @ 01:36 AM
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pheonix358
Well, after centuries of:-
Burning people at the stake!
Hoarding the wealth of nations.
Raping children.
Covering up the above crimes.
Doing deals with nasty people .... like Hitler.
Someone wants to do something about it.
Good on them, these churches need some serious controls put on them.

P




In Vietnam?
I am going to need some verification on this one. Do you have a source for that?

en.wikipedia.org...
The above wiki insinuates it has been around 300 years since the last time that happened.

Or were you just being edgy?

Is this thread on the recent posts? I intentionally posted to general news to avoid this sort of comment as I was hoping for some actual info on the political landscape of Vietnam.

-FBB



posted on Apr, 5 2014 @ 01:53 AM
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reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 





So you think it is a political move?


No.

I think this stems from deep harbored resentments of the church from past transgressions throughout their history. At least towards Christianity. As for the other religions such as Buddhism, Confucianism and Daoism I don't know as to why they would be persecuted if they are. I am not sure if you would count them as being animistic. I think it is probably like any country including the US where many have a deep seated resentment of Muslims and it will probably be that way for a long time. Vietnam shouldn't be any different in that respect. ( as far as holding grudges)



posted on Apr, 5 2014 @ 09:33 AM
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Grimpachi
reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 





So you think it is a political move?


No.

I think this stems from deep harbored resentments of the church from past transgressions throughout their history. At least towards Christianity. As for the other religions such as Buddhism, Confucianism and Daoism I don't know as to why they would be persecuted if they are. I am not sure if you would count them as being animistic. I think it is probably like any country including the US where many have a deep seated resentment of Muslims and it will probably be that way for a long time. Vietnam shouldn't be any different in that respect. ( as far as holding grudges)


Ummm . . . .

It is focused in the general region of south Vietnam and most directly targets the Hmong. You would know that if you actually read any of the articles. This has been continuing since around 2011 and is gaining traction.

This is really just a case of you continuing on down you path of bitterness, resentment, and blind hatred towards a particular faith.

www.unpo.org...


As a result of the protests, there is concern that many Hmong have been killed or wounded by VPA forces, including helicopter gun-ships. Thousands of Hmong in Dien Bien have been arrested or have disappeared at the hands of the army.

Currently, thousands are hiding in dire conditions from security forces sent by Hanoi to crush the Hmong. The VPA is deploying commandos to track, arrest, and in some cases, summarily execute Hmong who have fled into the mountain interior, or to Laos.

Across the border, the Lao People's Army (LPA), with the support of Vietnamese security forces, is also engaged in attacking Hmong fleeing the crackdown.

Human Rights Watch has called for access to the Hmong.

www.theepochtimes.com...


Wolf voiced outrage that the Obama administration, like the previous Bush administration, will not designate Vietnam as a “country of particular concern” (CPC), which would then enable sanctions of various kinds to be applied to effect change in Vietnam’s policies. Vietnam was a CPC in 2004, but the State Department lifted the country from the CPC list in 2006. During the period when Vietnam was a designated CPC, Vietnam partially fulfilled a U.S.-Vietnam bilateral agreement to release prisoners and end the forced renunciations of faith.

The USCIRF has listed Vietnam as a CPC since 2001 and urges the State Department to do likewise. Wolf, who said that removing Vietnam from the State Department’s CPC list was a mistake, read excerpts aloud from the USCIRF report:

“Ethnic minority Protestants and Buddhists and religious groups that seek to operate independent of government control continue to experience severe abuses, including arrests, forced renunciations of faith, and long-term incarcerations.”


Yeah . . . the communist regime is so outraged at the RCC that they are throwing Buddhists and civil rights activists in jail . . .

Maybe you should actually read the article before you start throwing a fit about Christianity, like an adult.

-FBB
edit on 5-4-2014 by FriedBabelBroccoli because: 101



posted on Apr, 5 2014 @ 09:52 AM
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reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 


Lol. Your as caustic as ever I had really thought that maybe this time would be different.

I didn't quote the entirety of the wiki page. Only up to the 1950s because as another poster pointed out there is resentment from the Kennedy administration. I guess you were trying to imply that what happened in north Vietnam has no bearing on the south even after reunification since you specifically pointed out that this is happening in the south.

Well you are welcome to your opinion. The only one that seems to be throwing a fit is you. I was trying to have a conversation but if you can't reciprocate then I will leave the last word to you.



posted on Apr, 5 2014 @ 09:56 AM
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Grimpachi
reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 


Lol. Your as caustic as ever I had really thought that maybe this time would be different.

I didn't quote the entirety of the wiki page. Only up to the 1950s because as another poster pointed out there is resentment from the Kennedy administration. I guess you were trying to imply that what happened in north Vietnam has no bearing on the south even after reunification since you specifically pointed out that this is happening in the south.

Well you are welcome to your opinion. The only one that seems to be throwing a fit is you. I was trying to have a conversation but if you can't reciprocate then I will leave the last word to you.


Really?

How are "deep seated" resentments against the RCC propagating the oppression of ethnic minorities of several different faiths? I already asked you this and your response was the typical, "RCC bad . . . they did something bad 60 years ago . . . so there."

Please . . . .

-FBB



posted on Apr, 5 2014 @ 07:30 PM
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My wife is Vietnamese, and she relates the following:

What's going on in the highlands of Vietnam is different from what is going on in the population centers. Religion is alive and well in the cities, and as long as pastors and priests don't use the pulpit to criticize the government, they get along just fine. Yes, people have been arrested for failing to get permission to build religious buildings, and all churches must register with the government, but this is the same with every organization in Vietnam-they love their paperwork there.

Officially, every Vietnamese citizen is "Buddhist," and this is what gets printed on their ID cards, regardless of what they state their religion to be, but this is a formality; no one is required to renounce anything.

If the government is pressuring Christians in the North, it could be political in nature-they want to control the Hmong, historically, a very uh...restless...people. Christianity is considered somewhat incompatible with "Communism," which is kind of ironic, since they have a lot in common.



posted on Apr, 5 2014 @ 09:01 PM
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pheonix358
Well, after centuries of:-

Burning people at the stake!

Hoarding the wealth of nations.

Raping children.

Covering up the above crimes.

Doing deals with nasty people .... like Hitler.


Someone wants to do something about it.

Good on them, these churches need some serious controls put on them.

P




Yeah, those Animists really had it coming ...



posted on Apr, 5 2014 @ 09:37 PM
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FriedBabelBroccoli

pheonix358
Well, after centuries of:-
Burning people at the stake!
Hoarding the wealth of nations.
Raping children.
Covering up the above crimes.
Doing deals with nasty people .... like Hitler.
Someone wants to do something about it.
Good on them, these churches need some serious controls put on them.

P




In Vietnam?
I am going to need some verification on this one. Do you have a source for that?

en.wikipedia.org...
The above wiki insinuates it has been around 300 years since the last time that happened.

Or were you just being edgy?

Is this thread on the recent posts? I intentionally posted to general news to avoid this sort of comment as I was hoping for some actual info on the political landscape of Vietnam.

-FBB


Consider the political landscape in Ireland where the church is in utter disgrace for it's constant cover ups and lying.

Vietnam does not have an open court system. If your source is reliable, then you can consider what may be happening in the background.

The reason the Catholic church never took hold in say China was because they received no special treatment.

As I said in my first post, this could well be an honest approach by a Government that wishes to protect its people.

Vietnam is not going to splash it all over the front pages of the newspapers. If their is a crack down, it is not in isolation, ie, it was triggered by some act. A reasonable hypothesis considering the Church's recent history is that Churchmen were caught raping children and the Government is reacting to the utter hypocrisy of what is preached and what is done!

The headlines in the West where the Church still has power is "A new era of abuse in Southeast Asia."

I suggest you open your mind, think who has some sway over the MSM in the west, and then ask, is the Church raping children again.

You may want to research the African problems as well. This is not Historical.

P

edit on 5/4/2014 by pheonix358 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 5 2014 @ 10:10 PM
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reply to post by pheonix358
 


You keep talking like this is solely an anti-Catholic thing, but it's not.




Contrary to some reports, many of the Hmong now facing persecution are Catholics, Protestants or Animist believers who gathered to appeal to Hanoi for land reform, religious freedom, human rights and an end to illegal logging by VPA-owned companies. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...


First, they all have one thing in common - they belong to the same ethnic group. This suggest it may be their ethnic group that is getting them persecuted more than it is their religious beliefs although it may their religious beliefs that are cited as the reason.

Second, we are talking about three different religious groups getting persecution - Catholic Christians, Protestant Christians, and Animists. Leaving aside the argument that the government may just not like Christians in general, or even the Catholic Church especially and doesn't want to bother to sort 'em out so to speak, that doesn't explain the persecution of the Animists which you also refuse to address.

I get that you don't like the Catholics, but stop ignoring the fact that this persecution is also aimed at Animists in your rush to find a Catholic bogeyman where he may not exist.



posted on Apr, 5 2014 @ 10:22 PM
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reply to post by ketsuko
 


First let me suggest that you look into the background of both your sources. To me, they both appear to be propaganda by the West, Epoch Times especially since it is published in New York.

Adding more religions into a complaint is what Churches do. They do not want to come out and say, "We are being persecuted!" because the answer may come straight back along the lines or "Well, stop raping children." So they include other groups within the claim to 'Generalize' the claim to win some support.

The fact that this is from such questionable sources and has not been followed up by larger organizations with actual boots on the ground could be telling.

I do not know what is happening in Vietnam but frankly, these reports are just not convincing in that they appear to be propaganda pieces. I may be wrong but them, I'll wait for further reports from a trusted source. (If I can find one
)

P



posted on Apr, 5 2014 @ 10:45 PM
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Snsoc
My wife is Vietnamese, and she relates the following:

What's going on in the highlands of Vietnam is different from what is going on in the population centers. Religion is alive and well in the cities, and as long as pastors and priests don't use the pulpit to criticize the government, they get along just fine. Yes, people have been arrested for failing to get permission to build religious buildings, and all churches must register with the government, but this is the same with every organization in Vietnam-they love their paperwork there.

Officially, every Vietnamese citizen is "Buddhist," and this is what gets printed on their ID cards, regardless of what they state their religion to be, but this is a formality; no one is required to renounce anything.

If the government is pressuring Christians in the North, it could be political in nature-they want to control the Hmong, historically, a very uh...restless...people. Christianity is considered somewhat incompatible with "Communism," which is kind of ironic, since they have a lot in common.


Thank you very much.

I was hoping someone with local access could comment on this. There is a large Vietnamese population where I live, but all they want to talk about is business when I visit so I was at a loss. So it seems this is more focused on maintaining control over a portion of the population which has caused the current government problems in the past.

Much appreciated.

-FBB



posted on Apr, 5 2014 @ 10:56 PM
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pheonix358
reply to post by ketsuko
 


First let me suggest that you look into the background of both your sources. To me, they both appear to be propaganda by the West, Epoch Times especially since it is published in New York.

Adding more religions into a complaint is what Churches do. They do not want to come out and say, "We are being persecuted!" because the answer may come straight back along the lines or "Well, stop raping children." So they include other groups within the claim to 'Generalize' the claim to win some support.

The fact that this is from such questionable sources and has not been followed up by larger organizations with actual boots on the ground could be telling.

I do not know what is happening in Vietnam but frankly, these reports are just not convincing in that they appear to be propaganda pieces. I may be wrong but them, I'll wait for further reports from a trusted source. (If I can find one
)

P


You obviously did not actually read the article . . . unless you do not consider Human Rights Watch to be a legitimate organization. You have made it clear you do not care so long as a certain group is the one being persecuted (or claiming persecution).

This is a conspiracy website so I am hesitant to mock your construction of an RCC conspiracy to fake stories about being oppressed through media outlets based in New York to achieve world dominance. Really? Do you have any evidence for this or are you just going to make up some more nonsense to justify your bigoted intro comment?

www.hrw.org...
World Report 2013: Vietnam


In 2012, police used excessive force in response to public protests over evictions, confiscation of land, and police brutality.

Land confiscation continues to be a flashpoint issue, with local farmers and villagers facing unjust confiscation of their lands by government officials and private sector projects. Those who resist face abuses from local authorities.

Following a series of arrests of well-connected tycoons and managers of state-owned companies, the Party Central Committee held its sixth plenum in October. During the session, factions led by Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung and by Communist Party Secretary General Nguyen Phu Trong and President Truong Tan Sang vied for control of the state’s political and economic machinery in a still ongoing power struggle. However, neither faction has voiced or otherwise demonstrated a commitment to protect human rights.

Vietnam has stated that it will seek a seat on the United Nations Human Rights Council (HRC) for the 2014-2016 term.


Hey Bro . . . Even George Soros funds this organization.

en.wikipedia.org...

Human Rights Watch (HRW) is an international non-governmental organization that conducts research and advocacy on human rights. HRW headquarters are in New York City with offices in Amsterdam, Beirut, Berlin, Brussels, Chicago, Geneva, Johannesburg, London, Los Angeles, Moscow, Paris, San Francisco, Tokyo, Toronto, and Washington D.C.[1]

As of June 2011, the organization’s annual expenses totaled $50.6 million.[2]

The George Soros Open Society Foundation is the primary donor of the Human Rights Watch, contributing $100 million of $128 million of contributions and grants received by the HRW in the 2011 financial year.[3] The $100 million contribution from the Open Society Foundation will be paid out over ten years in $10 million annual installments.[4]

. . .

Pursuant to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Human Rights Watch opposes violations of what it considers basic human rights. This includes capital punishment and discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. Human Rights Watch advocates freedoms in connection with fundamental human rights, such as freedom of religion and the press.

Human Rights Watch publishes research reports on violations of international human rights norms as set out by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and what it perceives to be other internationally accepted human rights norms. These reports are used as the basis for drawing international attention to abuses and pressuring governments and international organizations to reform.


-FBB



posted on Apr, 5 2014 @ 11:23 PM
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reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 


No, I firmly believe that Human Rights Watch is an organization with an agenda. So is most of the United Nations unless it is the General Assembly and what they say has no real power behind it.

The Politics sound much like a Democrat / Republican brawl in Congress.

Everything you read has an agenda these days. The hard part is separating Agenda from decent news reporting.

P



posted on Sep, 24 2014 @ 10:22 AM
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a reply to: FriedBabelBroccoli

It is not only Vietnam, but also many other nations. From what I hear, North Korea is the worst for Christians.




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