Posters have a right to post endless threads and comments about how Bush is evil, Christians are morons, Bush is Hitler, I'm Moving To Canada, isn't this horrible, the most evil time in the history of America, Bush has his fly open, ad nauseum. But I just find the monotony in viewpoint boring as hell. It's predictable, & it's turning into a cliche--a cliche that I refuse to believe is representative of all non-Republicans.

I don't like stringent Neocon rhetoric either--it's just that the Neocons have never made the claim that they are bastions of tolerance and understanding, and liberals have.

You defend the rights of a gay person to live their lives the way they want, but then you bash Christians. It's ok for two men to have sex but not ok that a religious person might feel it is sinful; you base this on the "obviousness" of how right your position is, when in reality there is no obviousness or absoluteness about it at all. I believe that homosexuality is fine, but I have to respect the beliefs of others on the subject because I know that we are all operating on our beliefs--and that the secular humanism that says "do as thou wilt" is just as much a belief system & Christianity is, and that there is no "absolute" that will validate one over the other (though I know Christians think otherwise--and you know what, I gotta respect that too!)

Wasn't that last paragraph complicated? That's because life is complicated, with many sides to a story--though you wouldn't know it by 2/3s of the threads in the ATS political forums!

There are things that Bush has said and done that bug the hell out of me: but this is the case for virtually every president I've lived through. Every president has been Machiavellian, ruthless, etc--because that's what's required of a leader in our system. You wanna do some good--stop focusing on one man and focus on the system.

Bashing Bush as a person---Kennedy as a person had done things that make me want to vomit. Want to talk about evil families that were tangled in corruption & crime? Go read about Joe Kennedy & his boys. Sending troops in harms way--go read about Kennedy & Vietnam. Pull your head out of your tiny little Bush-bashing hermetically sealed universe & read up on the trends of history. The most oppressive regime in American history? Go read about the 1920s. Want to emigrate to Canada or France because you feel they are bastions of freedom & America is Nazi Germany? Go read up on Canada & France instead of living in your fantasy world of what those countries are like.

Stop reading the same emailable lists of how everything is going to hell in the US & Bush is a retard & go out into the world & ask an intellectual or creative Middle-Eastern person in an oppressive, non-democratic govt how it feels to be in danger of losing their lives if they express themselves. Go explain to the budding young Michael Moore-esque future filmmakers in Iraq how it was better if we left Saddam's regime in place--or better yet, go send Michael Moore himself over there! It's ok to have freedoms to "deny ignorance" where you all live, but screw the people unlucky enough to be born in Iraq or Iran, right? But then you will say: well, see how many people are shedding blood in Iraq! Well: how do you think America won its independence & maintained it's freedom over the centuries? You think no blood was shed so that eventually you could have the freedom do Bush pee-pee jokes on ATS?

There are two (or several) sides to every story. Life is complicated. The portrait of America, the war, & the President that is popularly posted on ATS is rabidly one-sided and, frankly, serves no real purpose for real change in this world. Meaningful change will be accomplished by those who are able to perceive more than one rigid side in any situation. It's called critical thinking, it's called free thinking, it's called being truly unique & independent and not just another lemming.

The prevailing political voice on ATS does not represent that of Democrats everywhere. It is an extreme viewpoint, just as the neocon agenda is an extreme viewpoint. Extreme viewpoints such as these are dinosaurs.

I'm just getting bored to tears & I crave a place where people have the courage to step out of their little tiny ideological boxes and act like human beings and not party-puppets & can actually try to apprehend the other person's point of view.

What we need is a synthesis of political ideas. That's what's going to make the difference in this world. The rest, the bashing, the one-sided ranting & complaining...frankly, it's all just masturbation. And if that statement sounds too harsh, I will gladly give up ATS points for it.

Originally posted by Cassie Clay
The rest, the bashing, the one-sided ranting & complaining...frankly, it's all just masturbation.

I wonder if you can be more precise in your analogy? I don't see the connection between someone who is righteously angry with the corrupt actions of their government and someone who is being autoerotic.

I'm assuming that what is meant MA is that one can be "righteously angry with the corrupt actions of their government" without being continually repeative and redundant (ie: abnormal amounts of topic and comments simply saying Bush is Hitler, Bush is the anti-christ, etc.) and to the point of it amounting to mental masturbation (ie: pointless, rambling, etc.).



seekerof

Glad to hear from an expert on the two matters at hand, LOL.

Oh for the love of god...

LIBERALS and "non-republicans" are not the only people who bash Bush. Some like the guy.

Not all Bush haters are liberal, either. There are plenty of Republicans who find him embarassing and trecherous.

Arguments have much more credability without the "Liberal" label being applied or black and white/good vs evil name calling.

Christians take a lot of heat because many (not all) try and force their views upon others. I don't often see homosexuals out trying to convert others to Christianity, or dragging wooden crosses down Bourbon St. - that's just what makes many annoying and open to others' disdain.

Anyhow, people LOVE to be offended and have something to hate. If it isn't Bush, it would be someone or something else. People try to be offended every chance they get.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
Glad to hear from an expert on the two matters at hand, LOL.

In many of my encounters here with you since I have been here, I learned quite well from the best.


seekerof

Well seekerof so far I have to say that you don't lag far behind either, as an expert in the matter I mean.

If Mr. Bush was not such a bad President he will not be in the spot light all the time.

Bravo, Cassie, if I had a vote left this month, you would have received it. People tend to think that what they are living through is somehow unique in the world's history. I doubt there is much new under the sun.


We really need to get on with life and Cassie put it quite well. We need to keep ATS up to it's original high standards.

The formula goes like this:
repeatitive and redundant (on the same subject) equates to mental masturbation.

Well Marg, would your comment on Mr. Bush echo of 'repeatitive and redundant'?



seekerof

But, I thought we were supposed to hate Bush. The man actually got the Swiss to moon him after only a few months in office. It was his job to piss the world off. And I give him credit because he has done a fantastic job. I'm not being completely facetious either. I can't actually hate Bush. Any man who loves drinking and chillin at the ranch can't be all bad. He takes about as many vacations as I do. I don't think he really gives a shyt. And that's just how I feel. The world can do what it wants. I do what I want. Then we all die. I'm sure Bush appreciates the additional energy from everyone but alas I don't see that he has much use for it currently. He's just playing his part. He's just a human like the rest of us. If people had a fraction of the angst they have for Bush for say the people from the Federal Reserve that are robbing us blind; we would actually be the United states instead of looking like a disfunctional brat. We would already have had American Revolution II: Screw the Queen again. We would have a new updated and human friendly constitution drafted. And we would once again become the crowning jewel of human civilization. A beacon of light. A new world order if you will.

[edit on 11-24-2004 by ShadowHasNoSource]

Originally posted by ShadowHasNoSource
Any man who loves drinking and chillin at the ranch can't be all bad.

On a technicality, the ranch was a fake, designed to provide the impression of some cattle to go with the hat (or no hat). Look for how the ranch was engineered to change Bush's public persona.

Why can't Bush be all bad?

A few weeks back I requested a Bush sycophant to post a snippet of news about something positive that Bush does on a daily basis. That would be educational and in keeping with reversing the perceived polarity that causes concern to this topic's author. The challenge wasn't taken up. Clearly it's too difficult a research topic even for the most devoted of ATS sleuths.



[edit on 24-11-2004 by MaskedAvatar]

Originally posted by Cassie Clay
But I just find the monotony in viewpoint boring as hell. It's predictable, & it's turning into a cliche--a cliche that I refuse to believe is representative of all non-Republicans.

Stop reading the same emailable lists of how everything is going to hell in the US & Bush is a retard & go out into the world & ask an intellectual or creative Middle-Eastern person in an oppressive, non-democratic govt how it feels to be in danger of losing their lives if they express themselves. Go explain to the budding young Michael Moore-esque future filmmakers in Iraq how it was better if we left Saddam's regime in place--or better yet, go send Michael Moore himself over there! It's ok to have freedoms to "deny ignorance" where you all live, but screw the people unlucky enough to be born in Iraq or Iran, right? But then you will say: well, see how many people are shedding blood in Iraq! Well: how do you think America won its independence & maintained it's freedom over the centuries? You think no blood was shed so that eventually you could have the freedom do Bush pee-pee jokes on ATS?

The portrait of America, the war, & the President that is popularly posted on ATS is rabidly one-sided and, frankly, serves no real purpose for real change in this world. Meaningful change will be accomplished by those who are able to perceive more than one rigid side in any situation. It's called critical thinking, it's called free thinking, it's called being truly unique & independent and not just another lemming.

I'm just getting bored to tears & I crave a place where people have the courage to step out of their little tiny ideological boxes and act like human beings and not party-puppets & can actually try to apprehend the other person's point of view.

Bravo, Cassie. Very good post. You get one of my way above votes for the month. I think you meant comprehend the other person's point of view.

Too bad your words are falling upon deaf ears, for the most part. You won't open a single set of eyes here to those who wonder why their bias isn't valid. How can you argue with a point of view that asks, why can't Bush be all bad?

You can't argue with a keyboard. Face to face is the only way, because most people don't read what you write, they read what they want to see.

ATS has given me a few eye-opening moments, not hardly enough, given the amount of activity here. In the interest of fairness, I've even visited member blogs to try to understand a person's mindset. But most times I find that the two are cut from the same cloth.

I'm in the search for a forum that espouses the critcal thinking you speak of, that presents both sides of an issue without the vitriol. I'm sure it's out there somewhere.

Cassie, a great post. I wish I had another vote to give you, but I've used my quota for the month.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar

Originally posted by ShadowHasNoSource
Any man who loves drinking and chillin at the ranch can't be all bad.

On a technicality, the ranch was a fake, designed to provide the impression of some cattle to go with the hat (or no hat). Look for how the ranch was engineered to change Bush's public persona.

I'll have to assume by the above that you don't have the "Flightsuit Bush" doll. Seriously, if you ever need to get by an illegal roadblock nothing works like the "Flightsuit Bush" doll.

Why can't Bush be all bad?

Those stupid laws of probability. And the fact that Bush isn't good enough to be all bad.

If you want to be all bad you have to be really damn good at being bad. And Bush doesn't have it in him. He's ok at being bad. But I think he's just too lazy and doesn't care. I think if he applied himself a little more he could be worse.

A few weeks back I requested a Bush sycophant to post a snippet of news about something positive that Bush does on a daily basis. That would be educational and in keeping with reversing the perceived polarity that causes concern to this topic's author. The challenge wasn't taken up. Clearly it's too difficult a research topic even for the most devoted of ATS sleuths.

The #1 answer to positive things Bush does on a daily basis.

Survey says....

Sleep


[edit on 11-24-2004 by ShadowHasNoSource]

I'm in the search for a forum that espouses the critcal thinking you speak of, that presents both sides of an issue without the vitriol. I'm sure it's out there somewhere.

Good luck to people engaged in this kind of search.

The difficulty rests with an analysis covering "both" sides of an issue.

Some time ago when faced with such a statement I used the analogy of "both" kinds of music - country and western. The ATS member hadn't seen Blues Brothers, too bad.

Anyway, while there are many perspectives on issues affecting the world, there are few binary issues. But you can guarantee that the Bush administration will never present a perspective unless it is corrupt and self-serving. That's what they are in the game for.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar

Good luck to people engaged in this kind of search.

The difficulty rests with an analysis covering "both" sides of an issue.

Anyway, while there are many perspectives on issues affecting the world, there are few binary issues.

An issue doesn't have to be binary to discuss it rationally. Take gay marriage, for example. Why can't both sides be presented without resorting to Bush/neo-con/right-wing/bible-belt/conspiracy/marry -your-dog-is-next screaming being injected into it?

This past fall, I followed with interest a local talk radio show host who had no solid convictions on the issue of gay marriage, but was leaning toward the viewpoint of "why not?". He challenged his callers to change his mind with rational arguments. and routinely cut off callers who didn't present rationally. It took three days to get one argument that he accepted as a valid argument against gay marriage, but it was worth the wait.

Not everbody's cup of tea, I'll admit. Easier to settle into one's prejudices; that way you don't have to think too hard. Or at all. Just regurgitate.

talk about one sided liberal bashing LOL
hypocracy rings

anyway i am agianst all the one sided liberals or conservatives
your all evil

I'm a Christian and I did not vote for Bush because he's not 100% pro-life and he's for gay civil unions.

I voted for Peroutka, Constitution Party.

Bush is too liberal for my liking.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
A few weeks back I requested a Bush sycophant to post a snippet of news about something positive that Bush does on a daily basis. That would be educational and in keeping with reversing the perceived polarity that causes concern to this topic's author. The challenge wasn't taken up. Clearly it's too difficult a research topic even for the most devoted of ATS sleuths.

What!?!? I knew it!! Since the first ever, "Why do you love Bush" post, there have been about a million duplicates. Every single one saying about the exact same thing. "I can't think of any reason why anyone would actually like this man. I've always disliked him, and I challenege anyone to tell me what good he has done in his term". I was always thinking, "Why in the world would people not notice such blatantly obvious duplicate posts? Now I know. It was so that finally, when we all got sick of them, there would be one that nobody posted in. Then the original maker could say "See!!! Nobody can even find one good thing that Bush has done! I win!"......maybe not.

And yes, I do agree with Cassie. I've actually made a post or two about this exact same thing. Mine didn't get as much praise, but I guess that's because I'm a conservative so my being against "Bush-bashing" doesn't have such a strong impact. Anyway, good job Cassie.