The hypocrisy of those against the proposed AZ law (regarding gays)

mOjOm


Nobody is forcing you dude. YOU started the business. YOU opened your doors to the public. YOU are servicing the Public. YOU choose to do this, nobody is forcing anything on you. YOU did it. If you don't want to do it, then close up shop or change the type of business you run to a Members Only. Don't try and blame others for something YOU did.

You are correct about one thing: I started the business. Therefore I am entitled to decide who I serve and who i refuse to serve. Why is that so hard for you to comprehend? You whine about starting a members only place....evidently Augusta National Golf Club isnt something you are familiar with. If a business owner started a members only place and decided he didnt want blacks or gays there, how long do you think it would take for the lawsuits and news storys to start demonizing him for running his own place in the way he wants to?

So what is that legit reason then??? Or do you not have one???

Evidently reading comprehension isn't a big thing with you. I already stated the reason is whatever the business owner decides it is. It could be they dont like gays, blacks, or whites. It could be he has a weird OCD thing and doesnt want to serve anyone wearing a certain item of clothing. It doesnt matter what the reason is, nor does the business owner have to justify his refusal.

This is YOUR thread right??? YOU typed the title of it in when YOU created it yes??? YOUR title says:

Wow....its almost like you missed the entire point of this thread. Gays were used as an example since the AZ bill was a big news story. Currently, it is gays who are demanding others "tolerate" their lifestyle, when they dont show a tolerance of different opinions.

Do you believe a business owner should be forced to serve someone ,even if they do not want to?

Why? Hurt feelings? To prevent some people from being offended? lol

A business owner ultimately decides who they do business with. They may not vocalize it, but it happens countless times every day, and there is nothing you, or government will ever be able to do to avoid it.

If someone doesnt like blacks and a black guys comes in to fill out an application for employment: "Sorry, not hiring right now, better luck next time"

If a jesus freak bakery owner doesnt want to bake a cake for a gay wedding: "Sorry, too many orders ahead of you, it couldnt get done in time"

If a hispanic couple comes to look at a house for rent and the landlord doesnt like hispanics: "Oh, you shouldve gotten here an hour earlier, someone just gave me a deposit on the place"

The list goes on and on. WHat do you propose to rectify that?

doubletap
You should try reading some of my other posts. I guess my support of gays being able to get married shows I just utterly despise them, doesnt it?

I'm not singling out only gay people here, the AZ bill was just a popular topic of conversation. I have said numerous times that business owners should be able to decline business to anyone they want for whatever reason. Whites owners and black owners alike should be able to decline each others business if they feel the urge to do so. I'm white, and I've been refused service at a black owned business simply because I was white. (yes, it was verbalized) No need to cry about it or get hurt feelings, I simply went to their competition.

I have refused service to whites in my business as well, its my right to do so.

There are some rules for conducting business that are there for a reason. Businesses are required to operate in certain ways and under certain principles so that society functions correctly. For example, you say you have a gun shop right. There are certain rules you must abide by as the owner of that shop yes. Some for safety some for fair business practices and so forth. You don't get to decide all of those rules and regulations nor does any other business of the same type. Even with these rules there is still lots of room for different business and how they operate to allow for many various types. All that is being asked is that within business transactions only, not personal ones, but business, that you treat the general populace equally. Why can't you do this in your business dealing with the public??

I'm not all knowing and haven't claimed to be so maybe I've missed something. So tell me what it is if you have a example of it. Give me a valid reason to treat one type of person different than another within the scope of doing business with them???

As for the Black on White business dealings. I guess two wrongs make a right then. They discriminated against you because you are white so now it's ok for you to discriminate against whomever you want too. That's neat!! How inspirational you are. How nice things would be if the world was populated by nothing but bigots who discriminate against whomever they like whenever they like and for no good reason than simply because they want to.

Ya know, nobody is asking you to treat people a certain way in you own personal life. You're free to be an A-hole all you want. But in you business when conducting an honest product of service for the public all that is being asked of you is that you treat people equally. Equal under the law. You're business operates under certain legal conditions. Therefore it's operations must be conducted with the same equality under the law as well.

I am really so done with this topic and your argument. Unless of course you can provide me with an actual example of your side that makes any sense.

reply to post by doubletap


My believes are not the ones under scrutiny right now and they are not the ones that matter as I am not a business owner, so what I give is just an opinion base of what I see and understand about the issue and the established laws, and that is just personal.

But like I say, when you ban one group of people due to any type of preferences, that opens a can of worm about what anybody can do when they view others differently.

We have laws in the land of the free, discrimination is unacceptable, but while discrimination is mostly base on religion, race and political views, sexual preferences has not been included until recently because they were regarded as personal and private, and so far is still debatable and scrutinize when it comes to the government, the courts, the law and citizens.

I believe that this issue of sexual preferences falls under sexual discrimination when it comes to the rights of businesses to do what they wish, as we know they are not free to do what they want, remember business can not longer discriminate against race any more.

doubletap

Wow....its almost like you missed the entire point of this thread. Gays were used as an example since the AZ bill was a big news story. Currently, it is gays who are demanding others "tolerate" their lifestyle, when they dont show a tolerance of different opinions.

Do you believe a business owner should be forced to serve someone ,even if they do not want to?

If the business owner opened his doors to the public and someone from the public comes in to conduct business, then yes they are expected to do business with that person. How could that possibly be misunderstood???

Why? Hurt feelings? To prevent some people from being offended? lol

No, BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THE BUSINESS IS THERE FOR!!!! TO CONDUCT BUSINESS!!!

A business owner ultimately decides who they do business with. They may not vocalize it, but it happens countless times every day, and there is nothing you, or government will ever be able to do to avoid it.

If someone doesnt like blacks and a black guys comes in to fill out an application for employment: "Sorry, not hiring right now, better luck next time"

If a jesus freak bakery owner doesnt want to bake a cake for a gay wedding: "Sorry, too many orders ahead of you, it couldnt get done in time"

If a hispanic couple comes to look at a house for rent and the landlord doesnt like hispanics: "Oh, you shouldve gotten here an hour earlier, someone just gave me a deposit on the place"

The list goes on and on. WHat do you propose to rectify that?

edit on 27-2-2014 by doubletap because: (no reason given)

Well, there ya go. See even you know and understand that there is already plenty of ways to get around having to do business with someone. So there isn't a reason for a law is there. Unless of course the reason, which nobody wants to confess to, is that they simply want to be allowed to discriminate against people they don't like for whatever reason they seem fit openly and without any restrictions toward them while they openly practice Racism, Sexism, or any other prejudice within their business and personal lives.

There should be a law passed requiring all persons who are gay and own a business to do business with the people of Westboro Baptist Church...bethcha that would go over like a lead zeppelin...

Essentially the law states:

"You will be tolerant of anything we tell you to be tolerant of or we will only tolerate you while you are in jail. So watch your step."

marg6043


We have laws in the land of the free, discrimination is unacceptable, remember business can not longer discriminate against race any more.

edit on 27-2-2014 by marg6043 because: (no reason given)

Sure they can, they just cannot state that race is the reason.

Serious question: You do not actually believe this is the "land of the free" do you?

reply to post by mOjOm


The law wouldve protected the business owners against lawsuits from gays in this instance.

Why should a business owner be dragged through the legal process simply because someone got their little feelings hurt?

Again, do you believe a business should be FORCED to serve anyone who walks through their door?

marg6043
We have laws in the land of the free, discrimination is unacceptable,

Not true. Affirmative Action laws encourage discrimination.

But then, this isn't the land of the free anymore, is it?

reply to post by doubletap


I guess you are not familiar with my posts, to recognize sarcasm, that is ok you will get use to.

And yes is laws against discrimination that doesn't mean people still discriminate against others, we all do. for one reason or the other.

doubletap
reply to post by mOjOm

 

The law wouldve protected the business owners against lawsuits from gays in this instance.

Why should a business owner be dragged through the legal process simply because someone got their little feelings hurt?

Again, do you believe a business should be FORCED to serve anyone who walks through their door?

They aren't being forced, they are welcoming anyone who wants to walk in the door to do business with them. If you don't want anyone's business then close your doors. Do you advertise that you only sell to white folk or heterosexuals or christians or do you advertise that you are open for business to the public???

You ask for business from the general public, so if the general public replies and wants to do business, what's the problem???

It's not about feeling getting hurt. Laws set precedent and this law in leaves it open for all kinds of problems. Nobody gets hurt by not getting a cake, I'm well aware of that and personally I don't care about that one issue. But what happens when other businesses stop there public services to people just because they decide to be elitists???

Constitutional Rights apply to what the Government can and cannot do. So making a law protecting Business Owners based primarily because of their Religious Views Goes against the Establishment Clause anyway. You don't even bother putting forth a reason other than you feel Business Owners should have complete control of all business practices, but that's just not how things work and for good reason. If that were the case there would be no end to it. There are some things that even though you are the business owner you aren't allowed by law to when running your business. You can't sell booze to kids, but why not it's their business right???

Give me an actual example from AZ where a business owner is being sued for Discrimination of this type and let's look it over and discuss it. How about that???

reply to post by totallackey


A gay person doesn't have the right to refuse service to a member of the WBC if they aren't being disruptive and their business is open to the public. You guys really need to read up on laws and the Constitution especially if you own a business open to the public.

You, by law, cannot refuse service to someone if they aren't disrupting your business.

reply to post by doubletap


Nope. You're damn lucky you haven't been sued for discrimination you would have lost.

doubletap
If the owner decides they are not welcome there, or that the owner does not wish to do business with them, they must leave. There is no right. Somehow, in your deluded little mind, you equate that to a human right???? Uh huh lol

Since I would easily be able to sue you when you deny service based on your racism (or other similar reasons) and I would LIKELY WIN....I can conclude that there is such a right - the law is on my side.

Here is the real kicker...why should the business owner be prohibited from suing the general population should they choose to NOT frequent his store?

reply to post by totallackey


As far as I know there isn't a law on the books preventing him from trying. So in theory the suit would have its day in court.


NEXT.

Kali74
reply to post by totallackey

 

A gay person doesn't have the right to refuse service to a member of the WBC if they aren't being disruptive and their business is open to the public. You guys really need to read up on laws and the Constitution especially if you own a business open to the public.

You, by law, cannot refuse service to someone if they aren't disrupting your business.

So if I'm a caterer and the local swingers club comes through my door and wants their next party catered, I have to do it. Nevermind that I would prefer to have a business clientele. Then, when the swingers get done with me, they like me so much, they start sending over referrals like porn shoots and other business of the sort that makes me less and less acceptable by reputation to the business clientele that I want, but since I have no right to select what sort of clientele I get and will serve, I'm now stuck catering sex parties and porn shoots for the rest of my professional days?

Seriously?

I think you need to get a new perspective on the right of a business owner to pick and choose his or her clientele.

Having looked at this issue, the following can also be stated:

It is always perfectly acceptable to refuse service to a customer. I have done such before, and was justified, as the customer was either asking me to violate company policy, or was abusive towards me, or asking me to do an act that was against the law where I could be fined and go to jail. I was calm and refused the service, and ended it at that.

What many people fail to see and realize, is that most businesses can refuse service to anyone. Most places have signs that state: No shoes, no shirt, no Service. Or require an ID to get into the shop to do any sort of business. However, when there is an extra part, such as I am not going to give you business, and then it goes into a more personal nature, that is the start of the discrimination.

Is it right to refuse service to say a person cause of the way that they look? No, it is not right, is it right to refuse service to say a mentally handicapped person, who is acting in a way that makes a person nervous. No, it is not right either, or if they are handicapped or any number of other reasons.

There is a fine line between being justified in refusing a service and then outright discrimination. Point in case would be say the dinner in Kansas, where the law was not even passed and yet they hung a sign up that stated No gay people allowed. That is a case of clear cut discrimination.

If you allow that, then would you be so willing to say allow someone who is Islamic to post a sign that states: No Jewish persons allowed, or No Christian, or Pagan, or Heathens allowed?

The way the laws are written, and this is very clear, the only place where a person could refuse service would be a minister or priest in their church, and that would be acceptable for such, as the courts would find in favor of the church, not the individual. That point of law is called the ministerial exception. In short the courts or laws can not compel, within reason, a minister or a priest to perform any service that would violate his faith. Even the Military has that. The law can restrict religion to a point, but not all of the way, just the points where it violates other laws.

NoRulesAllowed


Since I would easily be able to sue you when you deny service based on your racism (or other similar reasons) and I would LIKELY WIN....I can conclude that there is such a right - the law is on my side.

You would have to prove racism, which doesnt exist.



I have never refused service by explicitly saying "I am not selling this to you because you are (insert race here). As I previously said, there are countless ways to accomplish it without delving into specific verbiage.

ketsuko



So if I'm a caterer and the local swingers club comes through my door and wants their next party catered, I have to do it. Nevermind that I would prefer to have a business clientele. Then, when the swingers get done with me, they like me so much, they start sending over referrals like porn shoots and other business of the sort that makes me less and less acceptable by reputation to the business clientele that I want, but since I have no right to select what sort of clientele I get and will serve, I'm now stuck catering sex parties and porn shoots for the rest of my professional days?

Seriously?

I think you need to get a new perspective on the right of a business owner to pick and choose his or her clientele.

According to some posters here, yes, you would have to serve them, simply because you opened your doors as a business.

They are wrong, and do not realize the violation of both property rights and the right to association.

Pay no attention to idiots who try to tell you how to run your business.