Minimum Wage: How rich is your country?

reply to post by boncho


You raise a good points, however it not that clear cut. While there are innumerable savings to be had with scaling your biz, thats not all there is. Being a large company makes your responsiveness slower overall, a distinct disadvantage.

Using your analogy, Five Guys Burgers should be paying their people more than McDonalds, all other things being the same, yet their pay structures are almost identical. They moved into an already heavily saturated restaurant market and are doing pretty well from what I see. The market pays what it does for a reason. You want to raise the minimum wage, then I suggest you tell your Congress Person or Senator to get off their asses and work on getting America fully employed again. Once the job force demand outstrips the supply of workers then wages WILL, out of necessity, rise and rise for everyone. Full employment does wonders for a nation's economy and budgets.

Jobs and more of them, are the answer, unless you are going to be happy with the faux unemployment numbers we have been fed. Taking into account those who have stopped looking and those "newly disabled" people and the numbers would be shocking for any other Economic Recovery.

reply to post by pavil

Using your analogy, Five Guys Burgers should be paying their people more than McDonalds, all other things being the same, yet their pay structures are almost identical.

Five guys is in the example I gave. They do well because of the quality of their food.

Restaurants attract customers for 3 reasons, cheapness, food quality, or service. So it's one of the three. The best in to the market against something dominated by large chains is the latter two, since their purchasing power and infrastructure allows them to see profit margins that others wouldn't, and have the ability to price low if they want.

You can always kamikaze your restaurant in the beginning to try and take market share, by underpricing all your competitors but you need capital. Yes marketing and location are important but they mean little if the 3 things I mentioned are not appealing enough to earn favour with consumers.

In any case, maybe a burger joint was a bad example as far as wages go regarding wages. As many are not full service.

I love the phrase "ADJUSTED FOR PURCHASING POWER PARITY..." In other words, they used skewed voodoo mathematics to make any conclusion they wanted to. How else can they make Australia's $16 minimum wage look like a bargain to the US's $7.25?

Try living in New York and Dallas on 7.25 an hour.

I've read recently that corporations are now looking at setting up manufacturing back here in the States, because our labor costs are now on par with India and China. Congratulations to Corporate America, you dumbed down the American worker and broke the back of any labor movement here. We no longer have a middle and lower class, we have a poor class and an impoverished class.

reply to post by Snarl

Fast forward 20 years, and I'm starting at the bottom of the food chain again. Salary doesn't quite cover the rent, retirement check's the only thing getting us by, I'm taking a subway train 32 miles one-way to get to the office, and I'm still putting in at least 60 hours a week without drawing overtime. This, brother ... this is a rock bottom moment few expect with a wife and two kids to support.

That is rock bottom? Wait a moment for me to catch my breath wile I die of laughter.

Hilarious, you really are the funny man aren't you.

I just told my husband what you said. He said trying being a teacher and becoming disabled after being attacked by a student. (No, workman's comp doesn't cover it because he was injured by a minor!) When you are hungry and living in your car and can't get any form of assistance, then you might be getting close to rock bottom.

reply to post by Snarl


Don't be a coward, if you have something to say to me say it in the thread don't message me. I don't have time for that.

I am not stupid and I think you are a complete jerk for assuming I am. Sorry but I have worked for minimum wage and I have worked for more. What do you expect a 16yr old to work for. My god self righteous people like you piss me off to no end. Must be nice to have loads of money in the bank and sit up on your pedestal and judge those below you because they make minimum wage. Oh those lowly workers are just so stupid.

You do realize that in some areas minimum wage jobs are ALL there is to get? I know people who have degrees and worked for the space program for 20+yrs that are now working for minimum wage because that is ALL they could get right now in the area. Does that make them stupid? NO it makes them friggin human because they choose to have a roof over their head.

Calling people stupid because they work minimum wage is ignorant as can be. I know many people who work their butts off at minimum wage jobs and they are the nicest and hardest working people I know. I'd rather know those people than people like you who look down on others who don't have what you have. You must live a sad little life judging others the way you do.

Don't message me again.

oblvion
I actually think there should be no minimum wage, as everytime they raise it it doesnt raise anyone out of poverty, instead it raises the poverty level to now encompass those formerly above it, basically just making more poor people.

Some folks just can't grasp this. Minimum wage is to the working class ... what welfare is to the black community. It's a trap!

As far as it being personal, over the last year I have been working a crap job, so yes in my current situation it is personal, however I have been making alot more than I am now my entire life, and will again soon hopefully, but I have been saying these things for years. As I have watched this slow motion car wreck unfolding all around me since I was a child.

I have no doubt you'll possess a success story worthy of applause if you persist. You also know you can always reach out to a fellow vet if things start to head further south.

reply to post by Sinter Klaas

Our minimal wage might look high, it has been losing half of it's worth within a decade.

Your post was very insightful. What I cut out in quote is another nail on the head. I'm not sure who it is, but 'some body' is no longer being subtle in demonstrating their control of value. What you have aptly described is taking place in every country of a certain economic ilk. There's some resistance, but it starts weak and fades.

I must have really struck a nerve. If you felt judged by me, I recommend professional help. I don't know you ... nor do I want to.
reply to post by mblahnikluver

You do realize that in some areas minimum wage jobs are ALL there is to get? I know people who have degrees and worked for the space program for 20+yrs that are now working for minimum wage because that is ALL they could get right now in the area. Does that make them stupid? NO it makes them friggin human because they choose to have a roof over their head.

People put a lot of stock in that roof. There are better investments and you can't find them if you're tracked on minimum wage. I don't expect you to understand this.

My step-mother has a PhD and an attitude similar to yours. I don't think she ever cleared more than $65K in a year. Before my old man left her to her own devices, she took flat-out ownership of their house in a country club neighborhood. Her lazy-assed son, who sat on his butt unemployed for more than a decade, managed to drain her dry and there are three outstanding mortgages on her property she can't pay on her meager retirement. She's too old to go back to work and pops isn't forgiving her.

I remember all the willful advice she was full of before I realized how dumb she was. I don't care how soft your life feels, life is hard, and it is the hard who persevere. I have NEVER taken a hand-out. I have been helped along my way by friends and family, I have given help in return, and I have helped others selflessly. I'm even helping you right now.

Quite a few years ago, I read a book written by a guy working for NASA. I had some questions on his theories, wrote him a letter, and developed a life-long friendship with him. He just recently retired after 40 long years of service. I wonder how he didn't wind up in minimum wage. I'd offer to compare other anecdotes with you, but I have better things to do.

-Cheers

reply to post by defcon5

I see two other elements, that when added to your POV, almost instill despair.

1. The rich have exclusive control over who takes the seats where laws are made.
2. 'They' can be as patient as required.

There are very few individuals with access to the personal wealth required to take on corporate strategy. That corporation has (present and future tense) an income. Corporations have strategic goals and sociopathic behaviorisms. For them, the ends justify the means, and they are without empathy unless it's a show.

Pitchforks and torches were the answer (nice touch ) ... but everyone's afraid of the costs associated with refreshing the Tree of Liberty. Couldn't you almost hear that sharp intake of breath when the vets showed up in DC to 're-open' the parks?

reply to post by boncho


Why did you have to post this. There is no justification why one person should be paid minimum wage for working there ars off 8 to 12 hours a day scrubbing toilets, flipping burgers emptying bins or driving busses while some person with some big fancy degree working 7 hours a day makes 10 times the minimum wage for sitting at a desk all day in air con drinking coffee, flirting with the secretary and ordering people around like cattle and treating them like a number. NOT LIKE HUMAN BEINGS. I believe in equal distribution. Meaning all people should have equal wealth and equal education. There should be no class of people. For those who have had low income jobs if you have ever paid attention of how middle class income people treat you, you are treated like crap further more consistsntly reminded that you are a peice of crap, a vermin that is not a pretty site. Even thoe the rich and middle class will fight me on my view. Everyone should earn the same wage weather it a ceo, doctor, teacher, cleaner, fastfood or community service. We were all born equal, we should all live and die equal. All I say to the rich is how many friends did you have pre tray to get to where you are ? How many people did you pay slave Labour to build your multi billion dollar company ?

reply to post by Snarl


Oh, make no mistake, I will have a much better story to tell this time next year, my moving away from a great job on sudden notice to an area with many illegals and little jobs has been a large factor.

That being said, I intentionally took this crap job over another job that was a little better because it gives me face time with a lot of folks in a new area, and has aloud me to get a heads up on some upcoming potential job openings.

We will see if they pan out, but I am still overly confident in my ability to work well and succeed in the working world in just about any field.

It is just a matter of time until I land another great job, at minimum of twice my current wage.

Life has its ups and downs, right now they are downs, but at least I did the smart thing and left my great job, to be with my children. It is only money after all, and the kiddos only grow up once, and I am the only father they will ever have, they need me as much as I need them around.

defcon5

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Seriously did folks sleep through what happened in 2008?
Companies used the market crash as an excuse to cut employees, and extort slavery on those who wanted to keep their jobs. People were taking pay cuts in jobs they had been at for years, and working extra hard to cover the workloads of those who lost their jobs. Meanwhile these guys were posting record profits, and got caught red handed by the government taking huge bonuses. That has NOT shifted back. Companies love it, and it's became the new corporate business model. As long as they stick together, and keep decent jobs rare, they have people working harder than ever for a fraction of the cost. THAT'S WTF is going on here...

If we allow it to continue down this path it will destroy our country, and our world, to the profit of a very few at the top. You can BET they are spending a fortune on propaganda to support their position, and vilify/blame the poor for the problems with the economy. Use public tax dollars to bail out their bad business gambling habits, and its “good for capitalism”; use any public money to save a family that's starving because they put them out of work, and it's “socialism that's killing this country”. People should have taken to the streets with torches and pitchforks when we bailed out those banks and corporations.

Want less restrictions on businesses?
Well we've tried that, it happened during the Industrial Revolution, where these guys were using child slave labor, running company stores, and making the air unbreathable with smog....

You think that they won't do that again here given the chance?
I suggest you go look at why they are moving business to India, Mexico, and China. You will see that the minute that the government “gets uninvolved” they default right back to that 1800, industrial revolution, robber baron, model of business. All the problems with businesses that occurred here in the 1800's are going on over in these foreign countries where these guys “offshored” their production facilities too. Hell, that's why they moved there to begin with...

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

I tried and failed to say this. You my friend have called it as it actually is. If only several of us people who are driven by more than greed could ever make it into a position to effect actual changes that are not for the sole benefit of business but the benefit of all our society...........my God, we could make this world a place worth living in in a matter of 7 years tops.

It would spread like a virus also, as all others who saw the prosperity that comes from a system where the workers actually get to share in the profits of their labors beheld an ever expanding market where workers once again have disposable income in mass to purchase goods and services, thrusting the entire economy up and up for all who are willing to work hard.

This dream will never happen though. We have a parasitic economy right now, where the rich take and take and take and never give back anything but crumbs and scraps from their overly lavish tables.

We need a symbiotic economy, where the labors of the little guys result in both them and the guys at the top getting a share of the gains.

This system would reinforce itself and cause an explosion of economic prosperity.

Too bad, men are driven by nothing more than greed it seems,( not for me personally, I require little more than food and shelter and internet access....and maybe basic cable some of the time.) as this is the only thing that our market rewards these days.

Pure unadulterated, heartless drive to acquire more resources you dont need and cant possibly even use. I mean $1,000,000,000 isnt enough? really?

It isnt like you can take it with you when you die. So whats the point other than denying it to those that actually need it?

Snarl
reply to post by defcon5

 

I see two other elements, that when added to your POV, almost instill despair.

1. The rich have exclusive control over who takes the seats where laws are made.
2. 'They' can be as patient as required.

There are very few individuals with access to the personal wealth required to take on corporate strategy. That corporation has (present and future tense) an income. Corporations have strategic goals and sociopathic behaviorisms. For them, the ends justify the means, and they are without empathy unless it's a show.

Pitchforks and torches were the answer (nice touch

) ... but everyone's afraid of the costs associated with refreshing the Tree of Liberty. Couldn't you almost hear that sharp intake of breath when the vets showed up in DC to 're-open' the parks?

It was glorious to watch those tough old birds take what they wanted wasnt it? Notice that in the face of "the people" forcing what is right to happen there was no response? They know to fear us. We are simply afraid of ourselves, and our own shadows.

I dont think if "we the people" actually had the will to force a change there would even be any real bloodshed, they would role right over and submit. After all, they keep giving those surveys to the military asking "would you fire on Americans if ordered to" and they keep getting the correct answer......NO!!!!!

They know their power only exists while we allow it, they know if not for "bread and circuses" they would be out in the street tomorrow.

The power has always been and will always be in the people. Ask Mary Antuinette( or however you spell, "let them eat cake" lady) how her belief in her unbreakable power turned out.

When just 3% of a populous rises up, it is a number beyond the ability of those in power to resist if the military doesnt back them.

Ours will never side against "the people".

Abavs
reply to post by boncho

 

Why did you have to post this. There is no justification why one person should be paid minimum wage for working there ars off 8 to 12 hours a day scrubbing toilets, flipping burgers emptying bins or driving busses while some person with some big fancy degree working 7 hours a day makes 10 times the minimum wage for sitting at a desk all day in air con drinking coffee, flirting with the secretary and ordering people around like cattle and treating them like a number. NOT LIKE HUMAN BEINGS. I believe in equal distribution. Meaning all people should have equal wealth and equal education. There should be no class of people. For those who have had low income jobs if you have ever paid attention of how middle class income people treat you, you are treated like crap further more consistsntly reminded that you are a peice of crap, a vermin that is not a pretty site. Even thoe the rich and middle class will fight me on my view. Everyone should earn the same wage weather it a ceo, doctor, teacher, cleaner, fastfood or community service. We were all born equal, we should all live and die equal. All I say to the rich is how many friends did you have pre tray to get to where you are ? How many people did you pay slave Labour to build your multi billion dollar company ?

Your vision doesnt work bro.

Think about it, you and I make the same amount at our jobs, say making product X. Everyday you make 100 perfect flawless units, and everyday I make 12 crap units that cant pass quality control.

Why would you keep making 100 good units for the same pay I make 12 worthless units?

You wouldnt.

Your swinging too far to the opposite side of the scale, knee jerk reaction.

Better workers deserve better pay. Different skills deserve different pay. Honestly all men are not created equal. Some are just smarter stronger overall better then others, think NFL. Everyone is not equal, 99.999999% of us can not be a starting quarterback. He has a specialized skill that makes him more valuable than the guy mopping the floors. Millions are not paying all that money for you to mop the floor, they are paying it to watch the quarterback throw a touchdown pass.

This doesnt mean the guy mopping the floor should not make a decent living though, he should, he is doing necessary work, and thus deserves decent pay.

There is not "robber barons" or flat out communism.

There is a very large middle ground, we need to be right in the center of these two in my opinion, but that doesnt make me right, I am open to many different shades of the grey area.

pavil

oblvion

Yes an employee making $8 an hour can cost $18 an hour to employ but the company is making in profit $45 an hour off his labors.

The company should not benefit more from a mans labors than the man laboring, it should be more in the mans favor or at a minimum equal, after all the man is doing all the work, the company is simply getting profit.

Spoken by someone who has NEVER owned a business I bet. The average American doesn't even begin to fathom actually how hard it is to succeed in Business. When you figure all the other expenses and costs they have to take into consideration, you would find your profit margin shrinking rapidly. Taxes, rent, utilities, licensing, supplies, marketing, insurance and a host of other costs will eat you alive.

In your example, let's assume it's a restaurant. Not every employee is actually generating those sales, so it's more like 2 employees per $50 of sales per hour. Labor is around 30% roughly, food costs run 24% to 28%, taxes paid by the business run at least in the 8 to 10% on the low end and up to 14% when they are all factored in. So far we have eaten up 62% of the profit at a minimum, now add 4% for utilities, 3% to 5% for marketing, payroll and accounting will add about a 1% to 2%. Various other normal operating costs, ie repairs,replacements will tack on another 3% to 5%. Now we are at 24% profit. Rent will be 7 to 10% and financing will add another 6%. Now we are at 11%. Let assume the restaurant is open from 7am to 9pm. 14*50*11% profit margin. The owner,who probably is at the restaurant all that time, made a whopping $77 dollars profit for 14 hours work or $5.50 an hour after paying ALL the bills, which I might add, he still has to pay taxes on. And people wonder why most restaurants fail.......... You have to have the volume flowing or it's a quick death.

Being the small business owner isn't glamourous when you are struggling to just keep the doors open and the lights on. I've been there, it's a lot more enjoyable looking back on those days now then it was when we struggled to make payroll. It wouldn't have taken much for our fledgling business to falter in those days. More burdens placed on them will only have the effect of hurting those businesses. But our Government and our Leaders (who for the most part have never owned their own business, let alone actually WORKED a real job) know what's best for us.

I apologize, I missed your reply in my busy browsing schedule. Let me give your reply the attention it deserves, as you made several very good points in your rebuttal.

We are in fact living living in the "fiat economy" where a government simply prints as much as it needs at will.

There is absolutely no need to tax the people or business in this system of economics except to impose financial hardship to influence the market.

If it mattered at all how much they print, they would not have printed trillions for Obama, and then QE3. It doesnt matter at all, and this money all went to those in the top 1%. Not one single dime helped a single small business owner or one single regular joe.

If they had printed the same amount and given it to the regular folks and the small business owners the entire problem would have already fixed itself, as everyone would have bought a house, mortgage problem solved. Everyone would have bought a car, car industry fixed. All sectors of goods and services would have boomed over night, small business issues fixed.

They didnt because they dont serve us the little guys, they serve the top 1% who get them elected.

If this money mattered at all they wouldnt have flushed it down the toilet like they did. The TARP bailout........did nothing but waste a trillion to stop those that raped the economy from losing any money at all, in fact they all got very large bonuses.

QE3 inflated the stock market, that they raped everyones 401Ks with, so that those that did the raping didnt lose any money on the collapse, and got to keep all the gains the got in the raping of said 401Ks.

This entire system is rigged to guarantee only them and their buddies can get ahead.

Your not understanding my point I think.

The small business fails so often because they make it impossible not to unless they want you to win.

Just for the record I did own a small business, subcontracting in construction actually. The ability of the U.S. to be the only nation on the planet that cant stop illegals from crossing our border killed that when they did the same work as all of us contractors for less than half the price.

Now pretty much only those employing illegals, or those that are connected to the unions are still in business. It is actually quite pathetic really.

reply to post by oblvion


Very good post, can't write more now.

Abavs
reply to post by boncho

 

Why did you have to post this. There is no justification why one person should be paid minimum wage for working there ars off 8 to 12 hours a day scrubbing toilets, flipping burgers emptying bins or driving busses while some person with some big fancy degree working 7 hours a day makes 10 times the minimum wage for sitting at a desk all day in air con drinking coffee, flirting with the secretary and ordering people around like cattle and treating them like a number. NOT LIKE HUMAN BEINGS. I believe in equal distribution. Meaning all people should have equal wealth and equal education. There should be no class of people. For those who have had low income jobs if you have ever paid attention of how middle class income people treat you, you are treated like crap further more consistsntly reminded that you are a peice of crap, a vermin that is not a pretty site. Even thoe the rich and middle class will fight me on my view. Everyone should earn the same wage weather it a ceo, doctor, teacher, cleaner, fastfood or community service. We were all born equal, we should all live and die equal. All I say to the rich is how many friends did you have pre tray to get to where you are ? How many people did you pay slave Labour to build your multi billion dollar company ?

People have equal skills? Equal intelligence? Sounds a lot like Harrison Bergeron.

NavyDoc

Abavs
reply to post by boncho

 

Why did you have to post this. There is no justification why one person should be paid minimum wage for working there ars off 8 to 12 hours a day scrubbing toilets, flipping burgers emptying bins or driving busses while some person with some big fancy degree working 7 hours a day makes 10 times the minimum wage for sitting at a desk all day in air con drinking coffee, flirting with the secretary and ordering people around like cattle and treating them like a number. NOT LIKE HUMAN BEINGS. I believe in equal distribution. Meaning all people should have equal wealth and equal education. There should be no class of people. For those who have had low income jobs if you have ever paid attention of how middle class income people treat you, you are treated like crap further more consistsntly reminded that you are a peice of crap, a vermin that is not a pretty site. Even thoe the rich and middle class will fight me on my view. Everyone should earn the same wage weather it a ceo, doctor, teacher, cleaner, fastfood or community service. We were all born equal, we should all live and die equal. All I say to the rich is how many friends did you have pre tray to get to where you are ? How many people did you pay slave Labour to build your multi billion dollar company ?

People have equal skills? Equal intelligence? Sounds a lot like Harrison Bergeron.

It does sound bad, I think his heart is in the right place, but he is young and hasnt thought this all the way through yet. Which is why I posted the reply I did to him, to try and add perspective to his point of view. It was a rather extreme example of NFL quarterback VS. janitor, but I think it will help highlight the actual necessity of differing wages for differing skill sets very well.

reply to post by oblvion


So do you think its right that 1% of the population run the world and own 99% of the wealth. While 99% of the remaining population fight over the remaining 1% of wealth. Do you think its right that while Mr A sleeps under a bridge every night with not a cent to his name while Mr B is a privet banker who lends money to countries with a automatic 10% interests on the loan and makes more money in a day then you make in a life time. There is no such thing as fairness no more. If you are born into a rich family then you will be rich. If you are born into a poor family you will remain poor. The golden years of making money from new ideas are no longer around seeing how the rich have so much money invested in RND they have prototype technologies that we wont see in our retail stores for at least 20 years down the track. The cost of living goes up roughly 10% each year yet low income earners only get a 1 - 4 % pay increase over a 2 year period.

defcon5

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Seriously did folks sleep through what happened in 2008?
Companies used the market crash as an excuse to cut employees, and extort slavery on those who wanted to keep their jobs. People were taking pay cuts in jobs they had been at for years, and working extra hard to cover the workloads of those who lost their jobs. Meanwhile these guys were posting record profits, and got caught red handed by the government taking huge bonuses. That has NOT shifted back. Companies love it, and it's became the new corporate business model. As long as they stick together, and keep decent jobs rare, they have people working harder than ever for a fraction of the cost. THAT'S WTF is going on here...

My employer got pretty creative, fortunately for me I make minimum wage (and no, it's not unskilled work)... haven't gotten a raise in 4 years so what they've done to others doesn't affect me. Each year they say they need to cut wages, and each employee has to resubmit what they're willing to work for, it's expected to be less than the previous year. The 15% that ask for the highest wage lose their jobs and are replaced.

So far they've cut wages quite a bit by doing that.
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