It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
How could Jesus be sinless if he was fully man?
page: 1share:
This'll be a short topic and to the point.
If Jesus was fully god and fully man, how could he have been sinless? If all men are under the curse of sin and Jesus was sinless he could not have been fully man according to Christianity's own theology because according to it all men are sinful by nature.
If Jesus in fact was fully man and did not sin, who's to say no man can be sinless even if they really tried?
I look forward to your thoughts and the discussion.
If Jesus was fully god and fully man, how could he have been sinless? If all men are under the curse of sin and Jesus was sinless he could not have been fully man according to Christianity's own theology because according to it all men are sinful by nature.
If Jesus in fact was fully man and did not sin, who's to say no man can be sinless even if they really tried?
I look forward to your thoughts and the discussion.
edit on 1/28/2014 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
From reading Paul, what you might want to call a curse is that men are doomed to die as a natural part of life.
Your problem is probably a result of certain myths perpetuated by the Medieval Church.
If you discount those, then there is no problem.
The curse, as I recall from reading Genesis, was that man would have to work for a living.
. . . how could he have been sinless? If all men are under the curse of sin . . .
From reading Paul, what you might want to call a curse is that men are doomed to die as a natural part of life.
Your problem is probably a result of certain myths perpetuated by the Medieval Church.
If you discount those, then there is no problem.
edit on 28-1-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
He was fully man because, as stated in John 1:14, He was manifest in the flesh. He was born to a human woman and lived as a human being for 33 years. He got tired like us, hungered and thirsted like us. He sweat, bled, cried, and did everything else that a human being does... except sin. He was tempted like us, except He didn't give in to temptation like we often do. Original sin does indeed exist, because in Romans 3:23 we see that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
I understand your argument, because I used to make the same argument. Jesus is His human name. His (for lack of a better word) God name is "the Word". The Trinity consists of the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. Often times the Word is replaced with the Son, but they are one in the same. We see in John 1...
then, as mentioned before, we see in verse 14..
So in John chapter 1 we see that the Word IS God. We see everything was created through the Word, and that the Word is the light and life of all mankind. Then we see the Word was manifest in the flesh... this is where the Word (God) became the human man Jesus. We see in Matthew 1:20 where Jesus gets His human name from...
The fact that Jesus was fully God AND fully man is the only reason that He was able to not sin. He overcame the sins of the flesh with His Holiness. You must realize that because Jesus is God, that He could have called a legion of angels down on the Pharisees or the Roman guards at anytime, but he humbled himself and He knew that His destiny here on Earth was to die the sacrificial death for the sin of all mankind, which is the greatest act of love in history.
Finally, the ultimate Biblical proof that Jesus was God AND Man. In Psalm 8:4-6 we see...
We see here that God made man a little lower than the angels. Now in Hebrews 2:9 we see..
We see here that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels for a little while. So in John 1 we see that the Word was God and was manifest in the flesh. In Matthew 1 we see that The Word was given the name Jesus when He was manifest in the flesh. In Psalm 8 we see that God made man a little lower than the angels, and in Hebrews 2 we see that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels for a while, meaning that He was made a man for a little while. In conclusion... Jesus = 100% God and 100% man.
He was fully man because, as stated in John 1:14, He was manifest in the flesh. He was born to a human woman and lived as a human being for 33 years. He got tired like us, hungered and thirsted like us. He sweat, bled, cried, and did everything else that a human being does... except sin. He was tempted like us, except He didn't give in to temptation like we often do. Original sin does indeed exist, because in Romans 3:23 we see that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
I understand your argument, because I used to make the same argument. Jesus is His human name. His (for lack of a better word) God name is "the Word". The Trinity consists of the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. Often times the Word is replaced with the Son, but they are one in the same. We see in John 1...
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
then, as mentioned before, we see in verse 14..
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
So in John chapter 1 we see that the Word IS God. We see everything was created through the Word, and that the Word is the light and life of all mankind. Then we see the Word was manifest in the flesh... this is where the Word (God) became the human man Jesus. We see in Matthew 1:20 where Jesus gets His human name from...
20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”
The fact that Jesus was fully God AND fully man is the only reason that He was able to not sin. He overcame the sins of the flesh with His Holiness. You must realize that because Jesus is God, that He could have called a legion of angels down on the Pharisees or the Roman guards at anytime, but he humbled himself and He knew that His destiny here on Earth was to die the sacrificial death for the sin of all mankind, which is the greatest act of love in history.
Finally, the ultimate Biblical proof that Jesus was God AND Man. In Psalm 8:4-6 we see...
what is mankind that you are mindful of them,
human beings that you care for them?
5 You have made them a little lower than the angels
and crowned them with glory and honor.
6 You made them rulers over the works of your hands;
you put everything under their feet:
We see here that God made man a little lower than the angels. Now in Hebrews 2:9 we see..
9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
We see here that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels for a little while. So in John 1 we see that the Word was God and was manifest in the flesh. In Matthew 1 we see that The Word was given the name Jesus when He was manifest in the flesh. In Psalm 8 we see that God made man a little lower than the angels, and in Hebrews 2 we see that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels for a while, meaning that He was made a man for a little while. In conclusion... Jesus = 100% God and 100% man.
edit on 28-1-2014 by OptimusSubprime because: (no reason given)
1 Corinthians 15:45
New International Version
The Scriptures tell us, "The first man, Adam, became a living person." But the last Adam--that is, Christ--is a life-giving Spirit.
Jesus is the last Adam
The first Adam was the image of God, created, fallen, cursed, our ancestor.
Jesus is human born outside the curse of Adam
New International Version
The Scriptures tell us, "The first man, Adam, became a living person." But the last Adam--that is, Christ--is a life-giving Spirit.
Jesus is the last Adam
The first Adam was the image of God, created, fallen, cursed, our ancestor.
Jesus is human born outside the curse of Adam
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Another thing to consider... Adam was a man without sin. When Adam was created, he was perfect and without sin, but by his own choice he sinned. Sin or lack of sin does not define humanity. Adam was no less human after he sinned. Jesus was a man without sin, but instead of giving in to the flesh as Adam did, He overcame the flesh because He is fully God and holy.
Another thing to consider... Adam was a man without sin. When Adam was created, he was perfect and without sin, but by his own choice he sinned. Sin or lack of sin does not define humanity. Adam was no less human after he sinned. Jesus was a man without sin, but instead of giving in to the flesh as Adam did, He overcame the flesh because He is fully God and holy.
reply to post by OptimusSubprime
It mentions "sarx" earlier, in verse 13, where it describes people being given the power to be the children of God.
Not by the wishes and desires of flesh (sarx) and blood.
Some other force then.
The Logos of sarx, with the Logos being the divine inspiration of creation and life, which was with God at the beginning.
That makes men the sons of God.
The word in the usual translation that comes out as "him", doesn't mean that in particular.
For example, Matthew 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
(2011 NIV)
"This" comes from the exact same Greek word as in
John 1:2
He was with God in the beginning.
(2011 NIV)
It says that there was a Logos sarx.
He was fully man because, as stated in John 1:14, He was manifest in the flesh.
It mentions "sarx" earlier, in verse 13, where it describes people being given the power to be the children of God.
Not by the wishes and desires of flesh (sarx) and blood.
Some other force then.
The Logos of sarx, with the Logos being the divine inspiration of creation and life, which was with God at the beginning.
That makes men the sons of God.
The word in the usual translation that comes out as "him", doesn't mean that in particular.
For example, Matthew 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
(2011 NIV)
"This" comes from the exact same Greek word as in
John 1:2
He was with God in the beginning.
(2011 NIV)
edit on 28-1-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
"How could Jesus be sinless if fully a man"
How would less than a man be fully sinfull.
Could Jesus as sinfull be less than a man.
IF fully a man how can this be described as Jesus.
How could a man describe itself as Jesus and be sinfull.
How does 'sin' describe itself as its original thoughtform Jesus.
Can Jesus be a man.
Is Man Sinless.
A full man is both man and Jesus without sin.
Sin is the antiquator, a discriptive of both; belonging to the past.
"How could Jesus be sinless if fully a man"
How would less than a man be fully sinfull.
Could Jesus as sinfull be less than a man.
IF fully a man how can this be described as Jesus.
How could a man describe itself as Jesus and be sinfull.
How does 'sin' describe itself as its original thoughtform Jesus.
Can Jesus be a man.
Is Man Sinless.
A full man is both man and Jesus without sin.
Sin is the antiquator, a discriptive of both; belonging to the past.
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Some of the material recovered from the Dead Sea Scrolls (or was it Nag Hammadi Library?) describe Jesus's earlier life. He most certainly was quite the sinner during those times according to this material.
Personally I'm stuck on the premise that someone can be both fully human and fully something else at the same time. Sounds rather nonsensical. For instance, I am fully homo sapien but I am also fully zeta reticulan. It seems to make more theological sense to say the man part was illusory to begin with.
Some of the material recovered from the Dead Sea Scrolls (or was it Nag Hammadi Library?) describe Jesus's earlier life. He most certainly was quite the sinner during those times according to this material.
Personally I'm stuck on the premise that someone can be both fully human and fully something else at the same time. Sounds rather nonsensical. For instance, I am fully homo sapien but I am also fully zeta reticulan. It seems to make more theological sense to say the man part was illusory to begin with.
Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Some of the material recovered from the Dead Sea Scrolls (or was it Nag Hammadi Library?) describe Jesus's earlier life. He most certainly was quite the sinner during those times according to this material.
Personally I'm stuck on the premise that someone can be both fully human and fully something else at the same time. Sounds rather nonsensical. For instance, I am fully homo sapien but I am also fully zeta reticulan. It seems to make more theological sense to say the man part was illusory to begin with.
Nice thoughts Lucid Lunacy: The NagHammadi Library rules for those of us determined Gnostics. The Essenes and future Freemasons knew of our extraterrestrial beginnings and the secret schools of modern knowledge began then. I am Pleiadian (Maya 5D), nice to meet you of the Zeta Reticulai. Nothing is nonsensical, I am fully human but am a Pleiadian. The "man part" was to combine the higher dimensionally to a lower aspect form heavy matter. This God part is illusory always was; I see it as the play time 3D. Reality happens in the upper dimensions. Pay no attention to naysayers as they live fear of the truth, (ego based). You realize the Absolute Unbounded Oneness is (god) is just compartmentalizing itself though us as its expression.
edit on 29-1-2014 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)
jmdewey60
reply to post by OptimusSubprime
It says that there was a Logos sarx.
He was fully man because, as stated in John 1:14, He was manifest in the flesh.
It mentions "sarx" earlier, in verse 13, where it describes people being given the power to be the children of God.
Not by the wishes and desires of flesh (sarx) and blood.
Some other force then.
The Logos of sarx, with the Logos being the divine inspiration of creation and life, which was with God at the beginning.
That makes men the sons of God.
The word in the usual translation that comes out as "him", doesn't mean that in particular.
For example, Matthew 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
(2011 NIV)
"This" comes from the exact same Greek word as in
John 1:2
He was with God in the beginning.
(2011 NIV)edit on 28-1-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)
There is a distinction to be made between "son of God" and "Son of God". Anyone who believes on Jesus Christ is a son of God (lower case s), but there is only one Son of God (upper case S).
What about the 18 or so years unaccounted for? In order to know what sin truly is, one must at least experience it for the sake of brevity.
reply to post by OptimusSubprime
It does mention the concept of the Monogenēs in verses 14 and 18.
I think that outside of rigid theological church doctrinal orthodoxy, it could be debatable if this is a direct reference to Jesus, or is describing this thing that it is calling the Logos.
It could be using the most direct meaning, which is that it is the only one of its kind.
I realize that it is often translated in Bible versions as "only begotten" or "only begotten son" but it doesn't necessarily have to mean that, and I would think that it probably doesn't but is emphasizing that there is this general sort of thing that is natural for humans on this earth to have thoughts and ideas and desires, but there is a single source for the ideas that men can go to and accept if they expect to have eternal life, which is from God Himself.
I don't see John 1 elaborating on that theme.
There is a distinction to be made between "son of God" and "Son of God". Anyone who believes on Jesus Christ is a son of God (lower case s), but there is only one Son of God (upper case S).
It does mention the concept of the Monogenēs in verses 14 and 18.
I think that outside of rigid theological church doctrinal orthodoxy, it could be debatable if this is a direct reference to Jesus, or is describing this thing that it is calling the Logos.
It could be using the most direct meaning, which is that it is the only one of its kind.
I realize that it is often translated in Bible versions as "only begotten" or "only begotten son" but it doesn't necessarily have to mean that, and I would think that it probably doesn't but is emphasizing that there is this general sort of thing that is natural for humans on this earth to have thoughts and ideas and desires, but there is a single source for the ideas that men can go to and accept if they expect to have eternal life, which is from God Himself.
edit on 29-1-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
If the "Wages of sin is death" and Jesus died, then yes, Jesus did sin.
Jesus went above and beyond the Ten Commandments, making thought crimes a sin. Jesus was tempted (thought about sinning), therefore, Jesus did sin.
Jesus, an unmarried "Troubadour" allowed a woman to publically and erotically massage his feet with expensive perfume and tears, using her hair to wipe his feet, no doubt causing other to lust.
Jesus encouraged youths to defy their elders and follow him, breaking the 5th commandment.
Turning water to wine, no doubt causing some to become drunk, which was a sin.
I could go on. Jesus was a sinner.
If the "Wages of sin is death" and Jesus died, then yes, Jesus did sin.
Jesus went above and beyond the Ten Commandments, making thought crimes a sin. Jesus was tempted (thought about sinning), therefore, Jesus did sin.
Jesus, an unmarried "Troubadour" allowed a woman to publically and erotically massage his feet with expensive perfume and tears, using her hair to wipe his feet, no doubt causing other to lust.
Jesus encouraged youths to defy their elders and follow him, breaking the 5th commandment.
Turning water to wine, no doubt causing some to become drunk, which was a sin.
I could go on. Jesus was a sinner.
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Just as a woman can not fully understand a man and since you are a woman you cannot understand.
Just as a woman can not fully understand a man and since you are a woman you cannot understand.
windword
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
If the "Wages of sin is death" and Jesus died, then yes, Jesus did sin.
Jesus went above and beyond the Ten Commandments, making thought crimes a sin. Jesus was tempted (thought about sinning), therefore, Jesus did sin.
Jesus, an unmarried "Troubadour" allowed a woman to publically and erotically massage his feet with expensive perfume and tears, using her hair to wipe his feet, no doubt causing other to lust.
Jesus encouraged youths to defy their elders and follow him, breaking the 5th commandment.
Turning water to wine, no doubt causing some to become drunk, which was a sin.
I could go on. Jesus was a sinner.
You have taken bible text out of content. This is a serious sin also call blaspehmy. You judge your God? You might not accept him as such but he is your God even if you reject him. Stop speaking this way.
Peace
You have taken bible text out of content. This is a serious sin also call blaspehmy.
No I haven't and no it's not. Just because someone wrote a book does not mean the contents of the book are true.
You judge your God? You might not accept him as such but he is your God even if you reject him.
The biblical god is NOT my God.
Stop speaking this way.
No!
edit on 30-1-2014 by windword because: (no reason given)
reply to post by Jesuslives4u
What? That doesn't even make sense not to mention it's kind of sexist.
I'm not a woman either just so you know.
What? That doesn't even make sense not to mention it's kind of sexist.
I'm not a woman either just so you know.
reply to post by windword
You have called Jesus a sinner.
You have committed blasphemy.
You have called Jesus a sinner.
You have committed blasphemy.
edit on 30-1-2014 by Jesuslives4u because: (no reason given)
new topics
-
The Great Reckoning
Rant: 6 hours ago -
The Inconvenient Bellwether County Dilemma
Education and Media: 6 hours ago -
Elite Universities Are Coddling Students Grieving Over Trump's Victory
Mainstream News: 7 hours ago -
Witnesses who will testify in next week's hearing on UAPs
Aliens and UFOs: 7 hours ago -
Qatar kicks out HAMAS
Middle East Issues: 7 hours ago -
leftwing wymen shaving their head in protest
US Political Madness: 9 hours ago -
Racist Text Messages Mass Distributed
Social Issues and Civil Unrest: 9 hours ago -
No, the election results aren't reminiscent of 1930s Germany. But this is.
US Political Madness: 11 hours ago
top topics
-
The Inconvenient Bellwether County Dilemma
Education and Media: 6 hours ago, 29 flags -
The Great Reckoning
Rant: 6 hours ago, 20 flags -
Leaving the US due to severe TDS?
US Political Madness: 13 hours ago, 14 flags -
No, the election results aren't reminiscent of 1930s Germany. But this is.
US Political Madness: 11 hours ago, 14 flags -
Elite Universities Are Coddling Students Grieving Over Trump's Victory
Mainstream News: 7 hours ago, 13 flags -
Qatar kicks out HAMAS
Middle East Issues: 7 hours ago, 13 flags -
leftwing wymen shaving their head in protest
US Political Madness: 9 hours ago, 11 flags -
Agree or Disagree
2024 Elections: 12 hours ago, 8 flags -
Witnesses who will testify in next week's hearing on UAPs
Aliens and UFOs: 7 hours ago, 6 flags -
Racist Text Messages Mass Distributed
Social Issues and Civil Unrest: 9 hours ago, 4 flags
active topics
-
leftwing wymen shaving their head in protest
US Political Madness • 76 • : Xtrozero -
Elite Universities Are Coddling Students Grieving Over Trump's Victory
Mainstream News • 18 • : nugget1 -
Witnesses who will testify in next week's hearing on UAPs
Aliens and UFOs • 4 • : nugget1 -
President-Elect DONALD TRUMP's 2nd-Term Administration Takes Shape.
Political Ideology • 61 • : Kaiju666 -
Agree or Disagree
2024 Elections • 19 • : fringeofthefringe -
Mood Music Part VI
Music • 3697 • : underpass61 -
Old School Punk
Music • 558 • : underpass61 -
Interesting timing 40 monkeys flee medical lab in US
Diseases and Pandemics • 18 • : Flyingclaydisk -
82 yr Woman Arrested for Hate Crime after Assaulting Trump Supporters
2024 Elections • 28 • : CriticalStinker -
Where ARE the 20 million votes??? Where ARE they????? WHERE???
US Political Madness • 53 • : navigator70