"No one can take my life from me" - Was Jesus really killed?

the2ofusr1
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

But you are using the Koran to say something that is not in the Bible ...The Koran says He didn't die but the Bible says He did .peace

I used the Bible ALONG WITH the Koran. And the OP explains how the Bible reflects the Korans message... That he wasn't ''killed'' because Jesus himself said ''no man can take my life''.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


To confirm Jesus's death surely one should be looking at the Roman records, which were extremely well preserved and accurate from that time in history.

How can you expect to get to the truth if you only rely on religious books which are written to be used for religious purposes, not historical purposes. The Koran may have a better acknowledged authorship than the bible which was written over a long period of time by different people, but neither can compare to the actual records of the Romans concerning the actions of their Govenors over the countries subject to Rome. Jesus, his existence or crucifixation, would have been well documented had it have happened. This was a man who had stirred up the people and anyone who had a following that threatened the Jewish Priesthoods and Roman rule would have been well documented. You don't give sermons on mounts to thousands of people, feed them from a couple of small baskets and carry out miracles etc without attracting a huge amount of attention from those whose authority you threaten.

Shiloh7
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

To confirm Jesus's death surely one should be looking at the Roman records, which were extremely well preserved and accurate from that time in history

Like the OP said, it ''appeared'' as if Jesus died by crucifixion, because he laid down his life. (John 10:18). But it appears that way. The Romans and everybody else, recorded what they thought they saw.The Koran reveals the truth that he was not ''killed''and that those say he was are in conjectur... A truth that Jesus confirmed when he said ''no man can take his life''

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Can you say where in the Roman records they record the death of Jesus?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

. . . he did not die of the crucifixion, and nobody killed him.

The Gospel of John was the later of the gospels to be written.
The writer would have been aware of problems that had arisen from misinterpretations due to certain ambiguities in the earlier gospels, and wanted to clear them up with an updated gospel that made clear points.
The writer of Acts did some of that same sort of work, and would have benefited by the existence of the Gospel of John, when he has Peter state that it was pre-planned that Jesus would die, and that it was not God's plans being thwarted by Satan and his minions when they killed Jesus.

Shiloh7
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

Can you say where in the Roman records they record the death of Jesus?

I referred to the Romans who were present when their men executed Jesus.

sk0rpi0n
The Koran reveals the truth that he was not ''killed''and that those say he was are in conjectur...

And where exactly did the Qu'ran get the supposedly 'truthful' information from ... 600+ years after the events?
Answer - no where. It was just made up by the writer.

A truth that Jesus confirmed when he said ''no man can take his life''

No man took His life. He gave it up freely.
Read the ENTIRE scripture in context instead of cherry picking it to try to make it confirm your qu'ran.

The FULL text - John 10:18 Jesus says - No one takes it away from me; I give it up of myself. I have power to give it up, and I have power to take it again. These orders I have from my Father.

See that ... Jesus clearly said he gives up His life.

1 Peter 3:18 - For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 John 3:16 - Hereby perceive we the love [of God], because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down [our] lives for the brethren.

John 10:17-18 - Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

John 19 - 33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. ...

His dead body was handled and prepared for burial ....and buried.
Jesus was obviously dead dead dead.

38 Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jewish leaders. With Pilate’s permission, he came and took the body away. 39 He was accompanied by Nicodemus, the man who earlier had visited Jesus at night. Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds. 40 Taking Jesus’ body, the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs.

Jesus Himself said that He would be killed. Killed means DEAD.

Mark 8:31 And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Luke 9:22 - 22 Jesus said - “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and be raised up on the third day.”

Luke 18:31–33 - Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, “Behold, bwe are going up to Jerusalem, and call things which are written through the prophets about the Son of Man will be accomplished. 32 “For He will be handed over to the Gentiles, and will be mocked and mistreated and spit upon 33 and after they have scourged Him, they will kill Him; and the third day He will rise again.”

And Peter confirming that Jesus was indeed dead - Acts 2:23–24 23 this Man, delivered over by the a predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24 “But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

And we have Jesus parable about His own life that He taught the apostles - Luke 20:14–15 14 “But when the vine-growers saw him, they reasoned with one another, saying, ‘This is the heir; let us kill him so that the inheritance will be ours.’ 15 “So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. What, then, will the owner of the vineyard do to them?

There are more passages ... so very many more ... that confirm Jesus did indeed die, and he died in the manner He predicted that He would. Death and Resurrection passages in the New Testament

@flyersfan...

No man took His life. He gave it up freely.

Exactly. That invalidates the typical Christian claim that he was ''killed'' or ''sacrificed'' by those nasty Romans/Jews . He gave his life up because he said he could and he took it back again. See John 10:18 (Bible)

sk0rpi0n
That invalidates the typical Christian claim that he was ''killed'' or ''sacrificed'' by those nasty Romans/Jews . He gave his life up because he said he could and he took it back again.

- He 'gave up his life' ... as in, he allowed them to kill Him.
- He prophesied that 'they would kill him'. That's what happened.
- So you admit that he died and rose again?

See John 10:18 (Bible)

I quoted it.

i have a question for you guys.

why did jesus say " My god, my god, why have you forsaken me?"

when he was on the cross?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


The details of Jesus's life is not as important as his message.

"This is my command: Love each other." - John 15:17

"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - Matthew 7:12

For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." - Galatians 5:14

Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. - Romans 13:8

reply to post by Belcastro

Belcastro
i have a question for you guys.

why did jesus say " My god, my god, why have you forsaken me?"

when he was on the cross?

Jesus was most likely singing Psalm 22.

Psalm 22
English Standard Version (ESV)
Why Have You Forsaken Me?

To the choirmaster: according to The Doe of the Dawn. A Psalm of David.

22 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer,
and by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are holy,
enthroned on the praises[a] of Israel.
4 In you our fathers trusted;
they trusted, and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried and were rescued;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.

- Link

Shiloh7
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

To confirm Jesus's death surely one should be looking at the Roman records, which were extremely well preserved and accurate from that time in history.

How can you expect to get to the truth if you only rely on religious books which are written to be used for religious purposes, not historical purposes. The Koran may have a better acknowledged authorship than the bible which was written over a long period of time by different people, but neither can compare to the actual records of the Romans concerning the actions of their Govenors over the countries subject to Rome. Jesus, his existence or crucifixation, would have been well documented had it have happened. This was a man who had stirred up the people and anyone who had a following that threatened the Jewish Priesthoods and Roman rule would have been well documented. You don't give sermons on mounts to thousands of people, feed them from a couple of small baskets and carry out miracles etc without attracting a huge amount of attention from those whose authority you threaten.

That is pure nonsense. Do you honestly believe that the Romans kept written records of every vagrant or upstart messiah or rebel that they crucified? Really!?

reply to post by arpgme

The details of Jesus's life is not as important as his message.

According to the teaching of the Bible it is important that we know who Jesus is because it ties in with the Gospel. To deny Him, His Person and Work is to deny the Gospel. Christianity is ROOTED in a Person (Luke 2:30; John 8:24-25) and the Old Testament points to Him (Luke 24:27). In every other religions it's not so much about a person but the teachings of its founder. Buddhism isn't about Buddha and Islam isn't about Muhammad but Christianity is CHRIST. He is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith (Hebrews 12:2). In Him do we trust and look to. Why doesn't Islam put Muhammad on display? Christ is on display because He is sinless and spotless. We are saved from God (Father) by God (Son).

It's possible to know the teachings of Christ (intellectually) and not come to Him. The thread we're in right now is a demonstration of that. The author of this thread is searching the scriptures but yet he's not willing to come to Him for eternal life:

John 5:39-40 — "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life."

An intellectual knowledge of Christ's teachings will not save anyone from the wrath to come because even the demons believe and they tremble (James 2:19).

Mark begins with this statement:

"The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God." (Mark 1:1)

Islam denies that Jesus is the Son of God. They deny His Person and Work and therefore deny the GOSPEL OF GOD.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
2) John 10:18 opposes the idea of Jesus having his life taken by men.

Here Jesus makes a fascinating declaration, that he - with God-given authority - was in charge of his own life and that no man could take his life away from him. The exact verse is as follows :

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. - John 10:18

You are completely miss-understanding the verses.

You are looking at half a sentence, of that verse, without weighing up the rest of its context and other verses in the New Testament, where Jesus specifically prophesies, that men will kill him!.

Which means, there’s an overall understanding to be reached, when weighing up all other verses, to do with Jesus death in the NT

For example…

John 10:17-18
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

When Jesus says no-one takes it from me, he means no one has the ability to take it from him, because of the power that He (Jesus) possesses, i.e. miraculous powers, and the ability to bring Angels to his defense etc…

So when Jesus talks about laying down his life, in verse John 10 (and many other verses in the NT), he means, he will allow men to kill him, as no one could kill him, if He didn’t allow it to happen. This is what Jesus means by his last sentence “I lay it down of my own accord”…

And, your ignoring many other verses in the NT, where Jesus talks about laying down his life, and how men will kill him…

Matthew 16:21
21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

In the above verse, Jesus specifically states that he will be killed etc…

John 15:13-14
13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

In the above, verse Jesus is subtly referring to himself IMO, and that He is the one, who is going to lay down his life, for his friends…

Matthew 20:17-19
17 Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, 18 “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”

Again, another verse where Jesus states he will be killed…

John 8:
27 They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.”

The above verse is not so clear as the others, but IMO by the phrase “When you have lifted up”, Jesus was referring to his eventual crucifixion…

And of course, there are also the verses John 19–33, Luke 9:22 and Luke 18:31–33 to take into consideration, which also mention Jesus laying down his life etc...


Another poster mentioned Historic accounts of Jesus death, here are just a few…

"What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King?" (letter of Mara Bar-Serapion") in 73 AD

"Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him [Jesus] to the cross” Josephus 37-100 AD

"a wise man who was called Jesus . . . Pilate condemned him to be condemned and to die." Roman historian, Cornelius Tacitus 55-117 AD

Apart from the New Testament and the historic accounts above of Jesus death, there also a few of the Gnostic texts, which also mention Jesus death by crucifixion, which adds extra weighted evidence, to the overall picture.

All those texts (NT, Gnostic and Historic accounts) I mentioned above, were written some 3.5 to 4 centuries, long before the Quran was even put together!

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
3) The implications of John 10:18 is that Jesus could not have been truly "killed" by men, whether the Roman executioners or the Jewish priests.
If it were so, then Jesus' declaration that no man could take his life would be severely contradicted.

You’ve essentially just taken half, of a full! sentence, in isolation, to form a limited conclusion.

And you’re just ignoring all other verses in the Bible and other historic accounts, which mention Jesus death…

The sole reason being, that you’re trying to get it to fit, that ONE verse in the Quran.




- JC

Belcastro
i have a question for you guys.

why did jesus say " My god, my god, why have you forsaken me?"

when he was on the cross?

Most people, even I for a long time never understood this passage. I'm going to explain this one.

Jesus was still teaching while on that cross, suffering for us all and in our place.

Jesus was quoting Psalm 22, a messianic psalm that vividly describes the agony the suffering servant would endure. God the Father did not abandon his Son in his Son’s suffering but allowed him in his humanity to experience the sense of divine abandonment that humans often feel during times of need, and especially when in sin. Just as we often feel that God has abandoned us when we are suffering (even though this isn’t the case), so the Son of God in his humanity experienced that.aspect of human suffering as well. He died for our sins, and the weight of those sins—and thus the feeling of abandonment—must have been exceedingly heavy at that point. By quoting this psalm, Jesus shows that he is the fulfillment of that prophecy and that he will be vindicated, which is evident in the psalm’s triumphant ending. Answered by: Catholic Answers Staff Q&A Newsletter Enter your email to receive free weekly quick questions: * More like this Was Jesus "forsaken" momentarily by the Father on the cross? On the Cross, did Jesus really believe that his Father had abandoned him?

Psalm 22

He was never blaming God and even refused the vinegar on a sponge, it was laced with a drug of that time. morph. op.

reply to post by VoiceInTheWilderness

Why doesn't Islam put Muhammad on display? Christ is on display because He is sinless and spotless. We are saved from God (Father) by God (Son).

Not sure what you mean by "display", but Islam makes it clear that Mohammad is a mortal human messenger.

Muhammad is but a messenger, messengers the like of whom have passed away before him. Will it be that, when he dieth or is slain, ye will turn back on your heels? - Koran 3:144

Islam denies that Jesus is the Son of God. They deny His Person and Work and therefore deny the GOSPEL OF GOD.

Islam only denies Jesus is the "son of God" or that he is divine.
Islam does not deny Jesus as the virgin-born Messiah.

reply to post by Joecroft

You are looking at half a sentence, of that verse, without weighing up the rest of its context and other verses in the New Testament, where Jesus specifically prophesies, that men will kill him!.

I did address the full sentence in my post. Maybe you missed it?

First, his own declaration in John 10:18 holds that no one could take his life from him and that he could lay down life on his own. And according to the Gospels, Jesus indeed laid down his life after he said "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." (Luke 23:46). Second, Jesus had authority to take back his own life. His resurrection in the tomb and ascension are well known. Putting the two together, we see that it echoes the Koranic statements that "they killed him not, nor crucified him...Allah took him up to Himself".

I also broke down the verse as follows :
"No man can take my life" = Jesus could NOT have been killed by men.
"I lay it down on my own" = Jesus did NOT suffer death by crucifixion like the thieves.
"I can take it back" = Jesus took it back in the tomb, or rather God returned his life back to him.

So when Jesus talks about laying down his life, in verse John 10 (and many other verses in the NT), he means, he will allow men to kill him, as no one could kill him, if He didn’t allow it to happen.

Jesus only allowed them to arrest him, its not the same as allowing them to kill him.
If he allowed them to "kill him", he would be contradicting himself.

Before the arrest, Jesus prayed asking for the "cup" to pass from him. So he was hesitant to be arrested.

At the trial, Jesus defended himself
"I have not said anything in a secret way."

"The people heard me talk. Ask them what I told them.They know what I said."

If I have said anything bad, tell me plainly what wrong thing I have said."

If I have told the truth, why do you hit me?

So he did not just let kill him.

When he was finally nailed to the cross, he did not die naturally of it, but rather, he lay his life dow on his own.
"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." - Luke 23:46

And, your ignoring many other verses in the NT, where Jesus talks about laying down his life, and how men will kill him…

Matthew 16:21
21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

Matthew 16:21 is a commentary by the author of "Matthew". Those are not Jesus' own words.
Whereas in John 10:18 Jesus' own words is that nobody can take his life from him.

Matthew 20:17-19
17 Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, 18 “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”

Yes he was sentenced to death.
The gentiles did mock him and flog him. Factoring in John 10:18, he was "crucified" in the sense he was nailed to the cross, but he lay down his life as he said he could.

sk0rpi0n
Jesus only allowed them to arrest him, its not the same as allowing them to kill him.
If he allowed them to "kill him", he would be contradicting himself.

Jesus laied down his life by allowing them to kill him. He used the word 'killed' elsewhere. And Jesus used the word 'killed' in the parable that He told. And Peter, who was an eyewitness to Jesus murder, said that they put Him to death.

Jesus may or may not have decided when it was time to 'give up His spirit' ... but it was the people who killed him. It's the same as a person in the hospital nowadays who is on deaths door and they decide 'enough' and let go. Their illness kills them the same as the crucifixion killed Jesus.

Luke 9:22 - 22 Jesus said - “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and be raised up on the third day.”

Luke 18:31–33 - Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, “Behold, bwe are going up to Jerusalem, and call things which are written through the prophets about the Son of Man will be accomplished. 32 “For He will be handed over to the Gentiles, and will be mocked and mistreated and spit upon 33 and after they have scourged Him, they will kill Him; and the third day He will rise again.”

And Peter confirming that Jesus was indeed dead - Acts 2:23–24 23 this Man, delivered over by the a predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24 “But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

And we have Jesus parable about His own life that He taught the apostles - Luke 20:14–15 14 “But when the vine-growers saw him, they reasoned with one another, saying, ‘This is the heir; let us kill him so that the inheritance will be ours.’ 15 “So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. What, then, will the owner of the vineyard do to them?

Before the arrest, Jesus prayed asking for the "cup" to pass from him. So he was hesitant to be arrested.

He asked for it to pass ... He saw what was coming and felt fear. But He went through with it.
He allowed them to arrest and kill him. He laid down His life.

So to get back to the theme of this thread ... Jesus was DEAD. DEAD DEAD DEAD. He died. He allowed the authorities to murder Him. He didn't escape ... He didn't have a doppleganger take His place ... He didn't survive the murder .... He was DEAD DEAD DEAD. No one in our time could survive what Jesus went through ... let alone someone 2,000 years ago without any attempt at medical care at all. The lance in the side of Jesus seals it ... blood and water from his chest/heart ... and tossed in a tomb for three days. DEAD.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Islam only denies Jesus is the "son of God" or that he is divine. Islam does not deny Jesus as the virgin-born Messiah.

Son of God means HE IS DIVINE, EQUAL with God the Father and that's the teaching of the Bible which is the reason why they wanted Him DEAD for claiming that God was His own Father (John 5:18) making Himself equal with God.

While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?” They said to Him, “The Son of David.” He said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying: “The Lord said to my Lord, ‘Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool’”? (Matthew 22:41-44 NKJV)

Islam is only telling people HALF the truth (Virgin-Born Messiah) but even with this half-truth they still don't know what it means for Jesus to be called "Messiah." Here Jesus is claiming to be the Son (Matthew 22:41-42) but the question is, whose son is He? They were correct in saying that He is the Son of David (just like what the Quran claims, speaking from my perspecitve) but they couldn't go any further... but years later an ex-Pharisee (Paul the Apostle) gave THE COMPLETE ANSWER in Romans 1:3-4 after having an encounter with the Risen Christ (Acts 26:12-18) because it was revealed to him (Galatians 1:15-16). Jesus is the Son of the living God in His divine nature but He is the seed of David (Son of David, Messiah) in His humanity.

Repost from our previous conversation:

VoiceInTheWilderness: In the OT there are many prophecies for the coming Messiah. The Son of Man in Daniel was the ONE that they were expecting. Jesus used “Son of Man” to refer to Himself a lot because He is the Christ, the Messiah and this is to point them back to the Old Testament. Son of Man doesn't necessary refer to His humanity but to His messiahship and what the Prophets of old have been prophesying.

“Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?” (Matthew 16:13)

Jesus is here asking a question about the Son of Man. That is very important to keep in mind. He's asking to see what people think of the SON OF MAN. Some say, “that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.” Then He turned to His disciples and asked them, “But whom say ye that I am?” Peter answered, “Thou art the Christ.”

This is the first key and it's a very important one for it proves that the Son of Man = is the Christ, the Messiah. When Jesus say that He is the Son of Man, He is not saying that He's human. But Peter didn't stop there… he went on with a deeper revelation from God the Father:

“Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

And that is a complete revelation. This Son of Man, this Christ/Messiah is God's Son. John writes: “But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

Jesus is the Christ, in other words, Jesus is the Son of Man and this Son of Man is the Son of God. Muslim not only deny the Father but they deny the Son also. This is why Allah doesn't have the title or name "Father" in 99 of its names. Allah is not the Father of Jesus.

If Jesus is only the Son of David and IF "Son of God" does not mean that He is Divine then how do you explain Matthew 16:15-17? It takes a DIVINE REVELATION to know that Son of God means He is the Son in a humanly sense? Look at Matthew 22:41-42 again:

"While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?" (Matthew 22:41-42)

What do you think about the CHRIST, whose SON is He? This shows that Christship and Sonship goes together. Islam accepts his Christship (not knowing the implication of it) but rejects his Sonship.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


I cannot see how what other people believe is of any importance. You do not have the power to change anyone's mind, only God has that power.

Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him.

Debate should teach us yes? What are you learning?