NHS update 2014 re. A National Disgrace?

Knowing full well the ire, angst and venom this post may cause, I do not however hesitate to post further FACTS...

The following is from The RCN or Royal College of Nursing website from this week...

Organisational culture must support staff to apologise when things go wrong

Published: 13 January 2014

The Royal College of Nursing (RCN) today called for leadership across the NHS to create a culture where all staff know they can be open when mistakes are made.

Dr Peter Carter, Chief Executive & General Secretary of the RCN made the comments in response to the Health Secretary’s call for doctors and nurses to apologise to patients when things go wrong. The NHS Litigation Authority has issued guidance recommending that staff make face-to-face apologies to patients ‘as soon as staff are aware an incident has occurred.’

Dr Carter said: “The NHS Litigation Authority is right to remind NHS staff that it is ok to say sorry, however in too many trusts there is an organisational culture which makes staff feel like they will not be supported when they do this.”

The RCN is producing guidance for nursing staff to help deal with complaints sensitively and thoroughly. However, Dr Carter warned: “This can only happen when local managers and leaders create an environment where staff feel confident about their ability and authority to deal with the concerns of patients.”

Dr Carter continued: “The vast majority of NHS staff aim to provide the best possible care to every patient and when this does not happen they naturally want to apologise and learn from the experience. We now need leadership across the NHS to ensure that patients and relatives feel their concerns are taken seriously when things go wrong.”

Read the NHS Litigation Authority’s ‘Saying Sorry’ leaflet. (A 4 page leaflet)



For those with no experience of nursing as a career, like myself, the RCN represents the interests of Nurses

Once again I am pleased to see that the NHS has recognised various issues and finally begun to address them. This is proof, if it were needed that things have started to improve, and I for one acknowledge that. Anything that reduces unnecessary deaths or improves patient experience has to be a positive.

Trouble is, last time I experienced an NHS hospital, Monday when taking a disabled pensioner to an outpatient appointment I observed the following;
Soiled linen and what appeared to be hospital coveralls in plastic bags, unsecured and spilling out, loaded onto roller cages and being handled by an agency worker driving an NHS trust vehicle who was without any protective clothing or disposable gloves. How do I know! because I took the trouble to speak to the guy and saw with my own eyes the soiled stuff in unsecured bags, some of which were red bags mixed with other yellow or white bags. Off goes the lorry to the laundry and guess what, back comes the clean stuff on the same roller cages handled by the same guy.

Now, accuse me of not having a clue about what it is like to care for a dying patient, not true, been at 3 end of life experiences now, 2 in hospital, 1 in a care home, but I sure as heck know where some of the bugs/contamination is coming from. Where the heck are your cleanliness standards in the NHS? I have previously posted about staff wearing hospital garb to and from work and the arrogance of consultants who ignore basic hand cleaning. Perhaps this will be the next area to see improvement I the NHS, I certainly hope so.

I'm sorry but you have changed completely most of the content of the original post you made.

The original post made damning accusations of thousands of patients deaths. Which you pointed out as new facts posted on a website two days ago....which in fact it wasn't it was six months old. And you also posted all the tabloids reactions.
You obviously realized your mistake because when I came back to quote you and point out your information was old news you had completely changed this post into something completely different making a different point entirely!

Infact this "new and totally revised post" is hardly anything that damning. But I presume you had to attempt to pull something else out of the bag to fit your title. I'm sorry but I'm finding it hard to take a post seriously that you have obviously only posted when clutching at straws. It loses some of it's sincerity for me....

It may have been more sincere to admit your mistake and then make another thread containing this subject matter if you did indeed genuinely feel passionate about it....rather than putting something here for the sake of it.

reply to post by Logos23


Yes, well spotted and reported, pity you missed out by selective ignoring or simply not seen my reasons for the edit?

As it happens I misread the RCN site as the dates were not clear, once I realised my error I did an edit and explained it.

It's called being man enough to admit you got it wrong.

At least the opening comments have proved to be correct.

However, even when pointing out improvements as per unedited post and acknowledging them as such it seems you can't win them all.

Did you miss the additional bit about the laundry and other hygiene issues then, or was that selective ignoring as well?

There We Are Then!

And while we are discussing what you missed or otherwise...
What about the need for the 4 page leaflet then? Never mind the reasons why, I have acknowledged that also as part of the improvements.

reply to post by Shuftystick


Yes I saw you edited and gave reasons as previously reported facts removed and clarity added.

I also read your comments about hygiene.
The point I am making is that you felt led to make this post and called it a 2014 update based on the wrong information. But once you realized you had made a mistake you simply threw in a different report entirely which covered a different subject matter to fit the title. This kind of comes across like you have an agenda or some sort of grudge against the NHS because when your first post didn't fit the title you quickly throw something else in.

I'm not saying I am right but you can't blame me for questioning the sincerity behind the post in view of this.....

reply to post by Logos23


OK, I'll try it this way...

Prior to creating OP, at someone else's house I had read an article complete with graph results about the NHS. The article was published in the Sunday Times and I felt was relevant to presenting a balanced view regarding progress in the NHS.

When I got home I could not trace the article on line but found what I though was still relevant within the RCN reports I copied. When I re-read the posting I realised I had inadvertently copied or duplicated info from a previous post. I immediately edited the RCN data from the post and rather than leave nothing, I posted the one article from the RCN site that was current and I felt relevant to providing a balanced view.
As I was by then well into my edit and talking about current experience which is related to current NHS and Political statements I.e. hygiene standards - I posted my factual experience from what was then 2 days ago.
I purposely left the bit about the "saying Sorry" leaflet in as that evidences recognition of and positive action and progress in relation to the NHS recognising a problem.

Had I left the OP as it was, it would have created a wrong impression, I realised that, edited it and explained the edit, albeit briefly, in the reasons for edit box.

As I am talking current experience as well, I should mention the 71 years old gent I spoke to yesterday, he has been waiting over 7 months for an operation on his Aorta, it would be imagined that as an existing recipient of open heart surgery he would be classed as an urgent case. What makes the experience worse for this chap is that he has worked his entire life, served his country in the armed forces and travels a daily round trip of 100 miles to run his business, he is self-employed, a net contributor to the system and quite rightly peeved at the delay when scarce resources are being drained by the likes of economic migrants who have made no contribution to our NHS let alone the country as a whole. The guy loves his work, deals with people daily and just wishes to keep on with it.

This echoes various comments about a lack of resources and partly explains why so many UK born and bred and contributing citizens feel as they do about the NHS.

(Should anyone out there want to read someone's inspirational story of their end of life experience look up Steve Evans, a person that deserves recognition for his compassion and humanity and humour, what a character, RIP Steve Evans.)

OP...

this is just a continuation of this thread (NHS a National Treasure?) and just so as you know I have alterted the mods to inform them as such. This thread is just you doing what you done on your last thread pretty much on the same topic, chucking out bits of information you do not seem to comprehend to rubbish the NHS and make us nurses look like a bunch of monsters.

I find it very telling that it seems you actually wrote this thread at first on a document that you did not properly comprehend and made a mistake so you changed it. Well, I can give you credit for admiring to being wrong but its just unfortunate you didn't just request mods to close the thread.

Because just like your other thread on this very same topic its utter tripe.

Lets start with your first bit about the RCN publishing guidelines for nurses saying "sorry.

You are doing the same as what you done before, you are taking a statement like this and twisting it to fit your agenda we nurses are bad at our jobs. I say sorry at least once a shift, during nurse training I can recall having lectures on costumer service and dealing with complaints, then we have a standard training package for NHS staff in our trust for dealing with complaints. Hell our charge nurse has a drawer full of complaints that have been gathered over the years.

The RCN deciding to publish guidelines is just them doing what they do, it does not mean that we either dont say sorry or can not handle complaints. What you will probably find if you dig deeper into this is that there have been a couple of cases where the RCN has had to defend a nurse accused of not apologizing appropriately. So to clear things up they are going to publish guidelines for us to follow to make sure its all nice and clear.

They are not doing it because we are a "national disgrace".

For those with no experience of nursing as a career, like myself.....

Just so as you know, its quite obvious from reading your posts that you dont work as a Nurse.

Trouble is, last time I experienced an NHS hospital, Monday when taking a disabled pensioner to an outpatient appointment I observed the following;
Soiled linen and what appeared to be hospital coveralls in plastic bags, unsecured and spilling out, loaded onto roller cages and being handled by an agency worker driving an NHS trust vehicle who was without any protective clothing or disposable gloves. How do I know! because I took the trouble to speak to the guy and saw with my own eyes the soiled stuff in unsecured bags, some of which were red bags mixed with other yellow or white bags. Off goes the lorry to the laundry and guess what, back comes the clean stuff on the same roller cages handled by the same guy.

And now i am going to do something i really dont like

I am going to accuse you of fibbing, I think you might be stretching the truth on this one and let me explain why.

Firstly its to do with how laundry is managed in hospitals, most i have worked in have a on-site laundrette so no man in a white van, granted yours could be different but let me tell you how it is for us. This is for all of NHS Scotland and from what i can pick up most of the rest of the UK. Soiled linen is put in these horrible pink dissoluble bags, I hate them because if you have some one how has peed the bed you need about three of the things because the dissolve. Anyway what happens is Soiled linen goes in one fabric bag (orange or red) and clean stuff goes in another bag (white or green) they get tied off and a nice porter comes and collects them putting them into nice big bins.

But this is where i think your stretching the truth.

the area's for laundry would be in area's away form patients and the public, its not exactly going to be next to the wards. So for you to have spoke to this guy in the first place i find hard to believe. Then the fact that you spoke to him (just like the paramedic manager i find that one tough to believe. but what i find really tough to believe is that you waited until he came back, you really done that, you stood about and waited for him to come back.

No you didn't.

I sure as heck know where some of the bugs/contamination is coming from. Where the heck are your cleanliness standards in the NHS? I have previously posted about staff wearing hospital garb to and from work

Well no you dont.

You seem to think that Nurses going into work in uniform is a infection contorl issue.

its not.

its a professional image issue above all.

There is no difference in infection risk between me driving into work in my uniform (which i have to was at home anyway) and spending a day caring for your dear old mum and you walking in of the street to go visit her.

I personally dont go into work in my uniform but i can sympathize at times with those who do.

the arrogance of consultants who ignore basic hand cleaning

I know that this happens, I do hand washing audits and the doctors are always the worst of the bunch so i am not denying but i remember you brought this up in your last thread on the very same issue. Now yes this consultant was most probably just heading off for his tea or to another patient even so he should be washing his hands. But at the same time for all you know he could have been rushing off to a crash call, hand washing is not all that important in those kind of situations.

All i am saying is that you keep judging us when you dont know the job.

its quite annoying.

1. Moderators

2. Everybody else...


1. I am grateful to the mods for keeping this open long enough for me to reply, or even for keeping it open because it doesn't warrant closing...

2. ATS is still a relatively new forum for me, although I have followed it for some time and recently left it but for another forum but quickly returned. I appreciate anyone pointing out where I have transgressed T&C's or crossed basic protocols. I do not tolerate for very long anyone calling me a liar or when I have threatened to report further instances of this, changing to calling me a fibber! As such I will be drawing this to the attention of the mods as a possible stalking and or other T&C violation for them to consider. I don't undertake this lightly as previously stated in almost 40'yrs of public sector frontline work I have experienced far worse. But I was paid for that!
This OP was intended to show progression as I have previously and repeatedly acknowledged the nadir or bottoming out if you don't understand engrish!
I admitted my mistake and the reason why it was made and what I had done to edit the problem I had caused. Any lack of comprehension was caused by me missing the 2013 date on the first page of the RCN site and taking for granted that the 2014 date to the article I posted was the same for the previous articles, which I the edited out.
If nurses and others were such brilliant performers in their roles then the picture would be vastly different than that currently experienced by many patients and relatives, I will not post any further facts as I believe anyone with a modicum of ability can work out for themselves what is fact and what is assumption or worse on the two threads.
I happen to believe that the likes of the RCN and the NHS Litigation people base their reports, comments and statements along with 4 page leaflets on a reasonable understanding not only of facts but also on an understanding of what is required to turn the monolith around.
WRT the hygiene issues, keyboard warriors have an easy and predictable ability to call names at a distance let alone accuse people of lying and now fibbing, the same thing. Simply, you were not there I was, the circumstances, not that you need to know, but you opened this one up, are that this guy was unable to park his public sector livery public sector marked lorry where it was not causing an obstruction. I moved my car from where it was parked temporarily while ensuring the patients safe movement to the X-Ray dept. it displayed the blue badge and notification from the drop off area. At least 2 vehicles were permanently packed there, one belonging to a student nurse as per sticker on windscreen and the other to a Consultant as confirmed by the porter in situ - or was he a fibbing liar as well?! Having moved my car for a by now grateful lorry driver and spoken to waiting traffic that could not get past his lorry I spoke with the driver, it's a human thing called communication and some people should try it! I know what he said and I know what I saw, I am satisfied that I could take the stand yet again as a witness of truth - look it up. I am therefore content with my truthfulness and credibility as a witness. This particular hospital does use bins for soiled linen and bedclothes, you can see them all over the main building awaiting collection, usually outside the wards. The part of the hospital I was at was a day unit with various outpatient categories as well and seperate from the main building. I never said I waited for the guy to come back, I didn't need to, I had been speaking to him for over ten minutes while he was moving the damn trolleys, what do you think I was discussing, the price of bacon? Get your facts right before accusing people of lying or fibbing and putting your own interpretation on things...
Whilst still on the subject of hygiene, you may think it's OK for whatever reason to wear "uniform" to and from the wards or work or whatever you call it. I don't and I am sure many people with awful experiences of hospital caused infection support that view. Also as you were not there when I followed the consultant out of the ward, if he was rushing off on a crash call, I would have got there about the same time as him and I don't walk that quick these days. So stop defending the indefensible or I will report more FACTS that are current I.e. 2014.
BTW, I don't need to know a job to comment upon how I see it being undertaken or FACTUALLY reported by acknowledged professional bodies and individuals.
Now, mods. Please see my complaint about this character.

reply to post by Shuftystick


Ok lets say you are not fibbing (although having service vehicles loading and off loading next to x-ray, next to patient parking and the blue badge parking seems strange to me) and your also not fibbing about following a consultant around a hospital.

I really am curious as to what your job is, you seem to spent a hell of a lot of time in hospital quizzing the staff.

So i ask you, what is it that you do for a living?

The system is broken because of the people involved. Same thing here in America. Everyone cares more about preserving their own position rather than caring about delivering dignified and honest care. Patient abuse is universal in this day and age. Nothing but meat.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


What do I do for a living?
It's none of your business old chum!
It's for me to know and you to guess.
If you are not sure why I take the trouble to talk to people you are clearly not reading my posts fully or understanding what is writ!
If I choose to talk to anyone when at a hospital that is my prerogative, whether they be patient, relative or employee. Being an ATS member usually indicates the presence of an enquiring mind.
If I choose to post attributable facts to support a contention, that is good practice and usually a damn sight better than some of the postings on ATS that seem to owe more to an overdeveloped imagination and an inability to obtain facts to support their claims.
I await the wisdom of the Moderators who are well versed in the matters of what is acceptable and not when throwing accusations about thank you.

reply to post by Shuftystick


You are not posting facts you are just posting your misinterpretation of what others have said.

But to be honest with you, I am a little fed up with your agenda against me and my colleagues, you obviously have some kind of a issue with us on a personal level. I see this quite allot in my line of work and i cant really be bothered with it on ATS as i deal with it enough at work.

I think your lying about several of your conversations you have had with NHS Staff another example i would include would be your claim in your last thread that a following you complaining the consultant offered to let you pick a ward. That just would never happen, its a flat out lie that anyone who is a nurse in the NHS can spot a mile off.

Do you know people, I really hate to do this and say I told you so, but UK local and national TV reported today the case of a man who died after waiting 45 minutes for an ambulance to get to him, his wife had made 4 calls during the period on the UK 999 emergency number, the 4th call was to inform the operator that her husband had died.

What might have caused this delay - all the ambulances were tied up in casualty units waiting to transfer their patients to hospital care, one of them for 4 hrs.

A secondary issue was that some ambulances were off the road for crews to have mandatory breaks.
This is being urgently examined and a simplistic answer is don't take an ambulance off the road for a mandatory break if you don't have a replacement, change the rules to accommodate this or ensure there is sufficient monetary resource to provide the primary point of emergency healthcare I.e. No ambulances then no patients for Casualty/ER staff to care for! Do not pass GO do not collect £500, go straight to the mortuary.

Now, for those that chose to attack me, call me a liar or fibber or just try to debunk FACT, don't waste your efforts on this one it is a matter of public knowledge, today, and is an ongoing case!

reply to post by Shuftystick

I have to apologise to anyone confused by my third post on the NHS getting moderated closed.
Basically the update 2 was closed and referred to this update.
However this update was in relation to the first posting?
So apologies if my lack of understanding of the inconsistencies in application of the rules has led to any confusion, not least mine!

Anyway, please read what was left on the 2nd update, and, as this update should also not be in existence I will voluntarily, for the sake of clarity move back to the original, original NHS posting.