Lets brainstorm a new electronic lock

If this would be better elsewhere, mods please move it.

I was thinking of the problems of various electronic locks. How basically the ones which need a code transmitted from something we carry with us like an electronic key. These keys are just a number (although it maybe a very large number) to open the lock. Even these RFID cards and tags are basically just a large number inside them and the lock/door is still hackable fairly easily by reproducing these large numbers, particularly when there is a large amount of time available to carry out a brute-force attack.

Fingerprint, hand print, eye-balls can all be cut off or cut out and stuck onto the sensor, so what we need is something unique to us and which cannot be duplicated as easily as a number.

So, I think we need so serious inventing around this and we need to come up with a new kind of electronic lock which is not easily hackable from the outside.

Off the top of my head, maybe taking a series of different inputs such as a unique shade of colour, a number, and an image or a gesture?
A challenge/response pair where the lock would provide a number and you have to give the correct answer would be an interesting solution but I doubt if people could remember the formula or do the math in their head in a timeout period.
One thing which is probably done these days is to have a time-encoded sequence of numbers, so 1234 [pause] 567 [shorter pause] 8 for example, and the further away you are from the receiver, the more likely someone else can pick up the transmission from your 'key' to the receiver 'lock'. This time-encoded number I suppose would be pretty secure if the distance is short and the transmission method did not blast the code across a car park or front garden, but there is always going to be a weak spot which may be simply physically breaking a window and climbing through.

reply to post by qmantoo


Electronic locking is weak. There will never be a time where a good, well designed, top of the line barrel or lever based lock, will be less use than some mad RFID chip carrying device. Many electronic locking devices can be hacked, including car keys and so on.

That said, I was thinking about ways to prevent the issues presented by iris scanners and palm scanner locks. Basically, what I was thinking was that the human brain has masses of electrical activity happening within it. If you could upload a series of brain scans to a database, and connect that data base to the same sort of electronic strike plates as used in Iris scanner locks, then you could use the unique brain functions of a living mind, as the access control element.

The brain could not be used to access the door unless the owner was alive, since brain activity of the sort which would open the door, would cease at death. The scanners on the door, would not just look for brain architecture, but for the unique electrical interfaces between the lobes of the brain and so on.

You could call it, the MIND Reader (Mind Identification Network Device). You could put them on doors, sensitive computers, all sorts of places, AND to track individuals in a crowd, if the tech was improved and made portable.

reply to post by qmantoo


How about a chip worn as a "necklace" to recognize vocal sounds specifically from inside the body from the user to verify, then send an updated and sequenced encryption key containing something like 500 different characters at a length of 12,800 bits and randomly selected out of 10 encryption methods.

The method would be selected by the lock which would require timed updates from the "necklace" that would be changed automatically and a key generated based on a chip implanted under skin of the owner, created from their GPS location + exact body temperature + heart rate (as long as it is between a certain threshold).

The implanted chip would only have a broadcast range of a foot or less, and any gap in data (body temp or heart rate) would lock out so that there wouldn't be a viable entry method until the real live user is within range and the key couldn't be guessed because it would be changed too often.

Basically it would go: voice verify via first chip, then location + heart rate + temperature verify via implant chip, then location, temperature and heart rate (based) encryption key verify + previous key via implanted chip (except heart rate which would always stay within the same threshold requirement to prevent forced entry with the owner since heart rate would raise above the threshold).


Unrealistic, sure, but lets see someone hack that lock.

The reason a lock can be picked is the keyway is accessible to picks. Consider a coin vending machine type system that accepts a key into it and is sealed off from any kind of vision or manipulation where it is then checked for uniqueness, such as an oddly shaped 3D item. It is either accepted or not and then returned. No moving picks around, no going through many possibilities quickly. Say you picked up a pebble and your lock could be programmed to that unique shape via visual and or contact methods. You put it in a slot, push in, and it is returned and the lock can be opened or not.

I dont know many people who would microchip themselves, would you? I wouldn't.

Heart rate is easily raised if you have a stressful situation or if you are worrying about family etc. I think bodily functions might be a tricky thing to pin down to allow them to be the modifier of any lock system. Anything which is going to be practical needs to be cheap and simple to install and operate, yet complicated to hack.

Another possibility might be to disguise the entry validation method. For example to have a sensor of some kind under the door mat and a transmitter in the heel of your shoe. That plus the visible entry method might be quite effective unless others knew about both systems.

I like the idea of an enclosed "key" identification system with the lock mechanism out of sight and out of the way. Not sure how a randomly-shaped small rock would be scanned in 3d and identified inside the "lock" but maybe it would be done as it dropped through the air inside. I guess this needs to wait until technology can do these 3d scanning things? You could always have an embedded RFID chip in there which gets scanned too. However, we are back to a unique "key" to the system which can be stolen or copied.

a few years back a Cambridge lab did invent an optical key for securing credit cards and unlike the electro-magnetic devices we have on cards at the moment and as is believed to be uncopyable with available tech.
you take a translucent resin and place in it a selection of micro-nano size particles, when the resin sets you measure the reflection pattern and record that on a secure server on production, each card made is unique and has its own unique random id.
an up to date thought on this idea is to take the chip and implant under your skin maybe?

reply to post by qmantoo

I don't know many people who would microchip themselves, would you? I wouldn't.
Heart rate is easily raised if you have a stressful situation or if you are worrying about family etc.

I sure wouldn't implant myself with anyting, I was speaking in terms of pure security. But that's what the heart rate monitor would be for, if it's raised, it indicates stress, which would indicate (at a certain threshold) that someone might be forcing that person to unlock the lock.
Well that's my half drunken thoughts if this, I'll return if I think of anything "groundbreaking".

I am not sure that you realize this but any electronic lock no matter what it is based on, always comes down to a number. It is just a bunch of 0 and 1. As such they can all be broken. Anything wireless can be intercepted.

Physical locks can be picked, yes, some are harder then others.

In the final analysis, the best key of last resort is either a hammer or an angle grinder!

P

...I am not sure that you realize this but any electronic lock no matter what it is based on, always comes down to a number. It is just a bunch of 0 and 1...

Yes, but there is always a possibility of incorporating a time-encoded element into it - as I explained above. If that was done a correct number alone would not open the lock.

How about a light transmitting key?

Imagine something like a TV remote control that uses infra red beams but something that is put into a tight fitting slot so it can't be seen or read by anything but the machine when activated.

Workable?

qmantoo

Fingerprint, hand print, eye-balls can all be cut off or cut out and stuck onto the sensor, so what we need is something unique to us and which cannot be duplicated as easily as a number.

if someone is willing too go to those lengths to steal,,then there must be something really valuable inside,,,if thats the case, then relying on just locks alone would be foolish

I guess there are people that would kill others just for a can of soup though

reply to post by Misinformation


That is a very good point. Anything worth going to the trouble of purchasing and installing high grade security systems of this nature to secure, has to be top value, because otherwise the expenditure would be totally out of proportion, and a waste of money.

One would assume that if a person had such valuables as to make such a thing necessary, that they would also have extensive perimeter security on the building, motion detectors, hardened access points, pressure detectors under random tiles or boards in the floor, well trained private security/former military operatives guarding key locations, not to mention a bloody good safe.

The fact is though, that these measures are rarely undertaken by private citizens, since only the very richest can afford them long term. These solutions are most often applied to high value corporate targets, and government buildings, and even then, are exceptional, rather than being the rule. You have to consider that when designing the product.

Who is your target market for this product? That dictates how much you can afford to spend on each unit you are intending to produce. If you are aiming a product at the domestic market, then you have to be able to make a product which will not be so insanely expensive, that you reduce your target market too much to make a profit, and sell lots of units. A failure to sell enough product to enough customers, will prevent you making a decent trading name for your company, and prevent that company from making enough to remain viable.

Because an OAP from Bradford in England is not necessarily going to have the same liquid funds as a Texan oil tycoon, for example, it is important to know this sort of thing before coming up with a concept.

reply to post by qmantoo

Fingerprint, hand print, eye-balls can all be cut off or cut out and stuck onto the sensor, so what we need is something unique to us and which cannot be duplicated as easily as a number.

There is already something that deals with this problem, its called a retina scanner.

a normal iris scanner looks at the front of your eyeball and can easily be fooled by a simple photograph.


A retina scanner fires a focused infra red light into the eye to read the veins at the back.


Its considered the most secure biometric security.

But as any security expert knows, if you rely on any one single form of biometrics then you have weak security. Use finger print, voice and retina then you have something far more difficult to break.

We don't have the processing power for it, or the technology, but, a brain scan while the owner of an object is thinking a very specific and unique thought would do well.

This would require the owner of any such lock to be alive, and conscious.
Considering that everyone's thought patterns are just a little bit unique in certain areas enough such that a distinct user specific idea, image, pattern, rhyme, song, smell, or memory of an event could very well work as a non-replicable unique "key".

Of course, the only measure for someone wishing to bypass such a system would either be hostage taking, and/or attacking the systems around the lock, or just destroying the lock to open/unlock whatever the lock is protecting.
In the case of ignition keys and such, then, the system would need be bypassed, which thieves already do, so, no amount of fancy locks would be all that worthwhile for vehicle protection.

Home entry, safe boxes, and other lock systems that could be armored or hardened against brute force might, however be a worthwhile pursuit.

reply to post by qmantoo


Whatever forum, whatever thread, if I read anything about "not sure if this was posted, not sure what forum, mods please move" I just shut down, stop reading and move along. No flags, no stars, no interest. Just so you know.

Any combination of several security systems should always be the securest. Key,bio and numbers will do best in combination, however the opening mechanism is the weakest point because after all, it always comes down to a binary decision:
open/closed
true/false

I do lockpicking, what I tell others if they find out my hobby is the following:

Picking a lock costs time, the easiest way is to simply break the lock with the right tool if you really want to get it/in.
This may not apply to software one-to-one but electronic locks always have some kind of actuator.
The best way to protect something from others is to keep it secret, keep the location secret and only after that comes the way how to secure the thing by itself. However, this may not apply to everything (cars and so on).

For my sports weapons for example, after all security failed, the firing bolts are neither in the weapon, nor in the surrounding area ;-)

reply to post by soficrow

Then why even post it here? Just so you can get your precious stars/flags for the post and purposefully deny yours?
I love those posts. Bickering about something that has nothing to do with the topic. Do you solely judge movies by it´s cover or people by their look?
Just so you know how others may think about your post quality.

soficrow
reply to post by qmantoo

 

Whatever forum, whatever thread, if I read anything about "not sure if this was posted, not sure what forum, mods please move" I just shut down, stop reading and move along. No flags, no stars, no interest. Just so you know.

Well, no you didn't. You came and made a post that had nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Now, the thread is about locks! Would you like to add to the topic?

P

Soficrow -

Whatever forum, whatever thread, if I read anything about "not sure if this was posted, not sure what forum, mods please move" I just shut down, stop reading and move along. No flags, no stars, no interest. Just so you know.

You managed to find enough energy to post then. You can never please everyone as there is always one or two who gets turned off whatever is done. I feel it's only respectful to try and post threads in keeping with the forum subject, so if I am not totally sure what forum to place a new thread then I say that I dont mind if it is moved. Whether you add to the discussion or not is up to you.

In general, I was really thinking that it was about time we had a new lock/key system and now that we have progressed quite a lot technologically since the first key/lock was developed, it might be a good time to use the more modern things at our disposal. I think it is interesting that in this electronic age, there is often still a physical lock and key or dead bolt at the heart of security. However, I suppose it is because we have not got to grips with the energy barriers or plasma yet. I also think it is interesting that sliding doors dont seem to have taken off for main entrances to our houses even though they save space but maybe thats because they cannot be opened easily in an emergency too.

reply to post by pheonix358


No.

reply to post by qmantoo

I feel it's only respectful to try and post threads in keeping with the forum subject, so if I am not totally sure what forum to place a new thread then I say that I dont mind if it is moved.

I agree. I should have said if the "apologia" appears in the opening para. ...At the end is good, imho. As far as electronic locks go, seems to me there is a huge range already our there - and physical/mechanical lock-and-key mechanisms are already quite passe. No?