Tiger Mom, and the dark side and prejudices of extreme conformity

reply to post by ketsuko


I think there is a difference between an achiever, and an over-achiever. It is great to do something successful, but not so great to over do things.

People who do things because they like to do things, are achievers, IMO.

People who do things for ulterior motives, who have to out do everyone else, who over do it, are over achievers.

I question whether or not over achievers are good for society.

If someone achieves their goal through hardwork and passion, I am all for it. It they achieve their success by doing something like taking steriods or other drug enhancements, then not good.

Do you see what I mean?

reply to post by poet1b

Dear poet1b,

I'm grateful for your response and your patience with me, confusion is my near constant companion.

Do you see "a superiority complex, insecurity, and impulse control as virtues that lead to a better society?

Certainly, impulse control is. In fact without it, society crumbles. Consider the result if everybody acted on their impulses instead of controlling them.

Neither a feeling of security or insecurity is a virtue. It's an assessment of one's condition in the future. It may or may not be accurate, but it does exist. I would guess that about 3/4 of Americans feel insecure, and I believe they are right to feel that way. Would you claim that "Preppers" lead to a worse society? I don't understand that position.

The same is true with a superiority complex. Depending on what you mean by it, isn't it just an analysis of one's abilities compared to another's? It might be an accurate or inaccurate comparison, but if a person is superior in an area, how do you want him to feel? Inferior?

But in general, I don't think you've made the case that these attitudes harm society.

Materialistic success is also achieved by lying cheating and stealing. Unfortunately, for some people, crime does pay. There are also many other roads to materialistic success that doesn't involve giving more to the world than taking.

You are absolutely correct, I agree with you, but to what purpose? Are you claiming that Tiger Moms raise children who are more likely to be criminals than say, Urban single moms? That would require a fair bit of evidence, don't you think?

In an idealistic world, we would all get back what we have put into society, but that is not how things work.

Let's go back to my example of the 16 hour a day programmer. He's put programming into society, but he certainly doesn't want programming back from society. Put crudely, he wants cash. Who shall decide how much cash he gets for his work? Certainly not the programmer. He can't enforce a request for umptygazillion dollars. He can ask for it, free speech and all that, but the person he's selling his programming to gets to decide how much to give him. That figure should be obtained by accurately determining the worth of the 16 hours of work.

Whatever other method of compensation society decides on, the one it cannot be is getting back what we have put in. Besides, there are a very large number of people in the world who give nothing at all to the world. Should we use that as an excuse for denying them all aid or welfare? It's not the children of Tiger Moms who get back more than they put in.

With respect,
Charles1952

charles1952
reply to post by poet1b

 

Dear poet1b,

I'm grateful for your response and your patience with me, confusion is my near constant companion.

Do you see "a superiority complex, insecurity, and impulse control as virtues that lead to a better society?

Certainly, impulse control is. In fact without it, society crumbles. Consider the result if everybody acted on their impulses instead of controlling them.

Neither a feeling of security or insecurity is a virtue. It's an assessment of one's condition in the future. It may or may not be accurate, but it does exist. I would guess that about 3/4 of Americans feel insecure, and I believe they are right to feel that way. Would you claim that "Preppers" lead to a worse society? I don't understand that position.

The same is true with a superiority complex. Depending on what you mean by it, isn't it just an analysis of one's abilities compared to another's? It might be an accurate or inaccurate comparison, but if a person is superior in an area, how do you want him to feel? Inferior?

But in general, I don't think you've made the case that these attitudes harm society.

Materialistic success is also achieved by lying cheating and stealing. Unfortunately, for some people, crime does pay. There are also many other roads to materialistic success that doesn't involve giving more to the world than taking.

You are absolutely correct, I agree with you, but to what purpose? Are you claiming that Tiger Moms raise children who are more likely to be criminals than say, Urban single moms? That would require a fair bit of evidence, don't you think?

In an idealistic world, we would all get back what we have put into society, but that is not how things work.

Let's go back to my example of the 16 hour a day programmer. He's put programming into society, but he certainly doesn't want programming back from society. Put crudely, he wants cash. Who shall decide how much cash he gets for his work? Certainly not the programmer. He can't enforce a request for umptygazillion dollars. He can ask for it, free speech and all that, but the person he's selling his programming to gets to decide how much to give him. That figure should be obtained by accurately determining the worth of the 16 hours of work.

Whatever other method of compensation society decides on, the one it cannot be is getting back what we have put in. Besides, there are a very large number of people in the world who give nothing at all to the world. Should we use that as an excuse for denying them all aid or welfare? It's not the children of Tiger Moms who get back more than they put in.

With respect,
Charles1952

deer charles,

so subcontractors dont exist and there are absolutely no examples of facilitation of trade or work being rewarded more highly than the actual work or trade that would have occurred regardless of a facilitator?
you should be compensated for work you do but you should be compensated fairly
profit is something you are getting out that is above and beyond what you put in

if youre understanding of how things work was correct it would be utterly impossible to find the same product or service for different prices because the level of work and therefor level of compensation should be the same

earned and deserved are two entirely different things

and many times the market does not know best
people used to buy health tonics containing anything from radium to heroin and were more than happy to down the poison
large groups do not behave like a rational individual and the market frequently rewards behaviors the individuals that make it up find deplorable

reply to post by sirhumperdink

Dear sirhumperdink,

To the extent that I understand you, I agree completely. I have no problem with recognizing that there are flaws and distortions in free markets, or any other kind of market. It seems though, that you are taking my example to be my argument.

My understanding was that poet1b was claiming that Tiger Moms raised children who took more from society than they gave to it. Apparently, this was because the children were "over-achievers." I doubted that Tiger Children were more criminal than other children. It also seems to me that the Tiger Children are simply saying to the world, "If you give us so much money, we'll do this for you." The world then thinks it over and says, "OK, fine with us."

I don't follow poet1b's assertion that they are acting in a reprehensible manner when they make those deals. Yes, the free market has flaws, but I don't see how Tiger Moms share any of the blame for that.

With respect,
Charles1952

charles1952
reply to post by sirhumperdink

 

Dear sirhumperdink,

To the extent that I understand you, I agree completely. I have no problem with recognizing that there are flaws and distortions in free markets, or any other kind of market. It seems though, that you are taking my example to be my argument.

My understanding was that poet1b was claiming that Tiger Moms raised children who took more from society than they gave to it. Apparently, this was because the children were "over-achievers." I doubted that Tiger Children were more criminal than other children. It also seems to me that the Tiger Children are simply saying to the world, "If you give us so much money, we'll do this for you." The world then thinks it over and says, "OK, fine with us."

I don't follow poet1b's assertion that they are acting in a reprehensible manner when they make those deals. Yes, the free market has flaws, but I don't see how Tiger Moms share any of the blame for that.

With respect,
Charles1952

my point was that the world does not in fact say "OK, fine with us"
ill use social games as my example here
there are people out there (im not one of them) who would be willing to pay $1 or so for a virtual decoration in farmville
to this individual this is worth one dollar because "hey its only a dollar" and they get some level of enjoyment out of it
now if you go to that same person and ask them if its ok with them that zynga is making billions of dollars off of virtual decorations etc. that take very little work to produce (and can be reproduced ad infinitum at incalculably small sums of money) and dont add anything positive to society you are going to get some pretty negative responses
people essentially think that no this is not ok with them but they support it anyway because they dont think about the long term implications of their actions or dont know where that money is going and in what kind of volume (and sometimes it can be extremely difficult to find out where your money is going to end up making it virtually impossible for consumers to make informed decisions about where and how they want to spend their money)

poet was essentially saying raising people that take advantage of a broken system is going to make that system even more broken
its like designing a building around a central pillar that has structural damage..... if youre stupid enough to use that pillar in your design in the first place you probably want to avoid putting any kind of stress on it =

Great thread, great perspective. I do admire that trait that tiger moms have to push their kids to success and have utter control over their kids behavior... but then I think where is the child, the scraped knees and ruffled hair. I'd like to find a balance in between.

reply to post by charles1952


Impulse control is good, but as I pointed out in the Op, Tiger Mom isn't pushing impulse control, she is pushing total control, to the exclusion of everything normal children do for a normal childhood, in search of institutional credentials for income security later on in the life.

Did you read the link in the Op, or do any research on your own? I alway think the smart thing to do, is do some research on the subject before posting an opinion that doesn't line up with the facts.

www.npr.org...

there will be fevered debate over Chua's tough love strategies, which include ironclad bans on such Western indulgences as sleepovers, play dates, and any extracurricular activities except practicing musical instruments ... which must be the violin or piano.

Impulse control is not buying things that you can not control, not having too much to drink, not mouthing off to others.
What Tiger Mom advocates is total control, and that is unhealthy.

Sure, everyone feels degrees of insecurity at times, same as they feel depressed, angry, and all kinds of negative emotions, which at times are appropriate, but these emotions are not something to embrace as a positive lifestyle. Living in fear, which is what living in a constant state of insecurity means, is very unhealthy in so many ways.

I don't know what you mean by "Preppers". If you mean people who prepare for life, then you are not getting my point. One can prepare for life without living in a constant state of insecurity, delusions of superiority, and an obsessive need for constant control.

A superiority complex is never good, it is arrogance, and arrogance blinds one to one's own weaknesses, and leads directly to hypocrisy, the door through which all evil marches, and this is very bad for society. It is good to know ones strengths, but equally good to know one's limitations.

I think Tiger Moms are more likely to raise children that will be white collar criminals than soccer moms. Rampant corruption is one of the characteristics of the culture from which Tiger Mom originates, and the other ethnic groups she claims to be superior.

The typical 16 hour a day programmer, who helped to pioneer the software industry over the last thirty years, was not Tiger Moms children. Most programmers, before it became such a prestigious career choice, did not get college degrees. The began programming in high school, got jobs because they proved that they could take on the complex task, and did so not because they were told to do so by their parents, but because they were passionate about programming. Back in the day, programming was not what all the Tiger Moms were pushing their children to learn.

Most programmers engaged in sleepovers and play dates as children, they were stoners who liked to party and engage in pre-marital sex. I know plenty of these people. If they played a musical instrument, it was not a violin, or a piano, it was a guitar, or drums. There was the time, when programmers could demand what they wanted for a salary, and then the politicians flooded the country with third world graduates, and the state of software development has been in decline ever since.

Tiger Mom talks about her children being number 1, but when was the last time a child raised by a Tiger Mom had a number 1 record, or won American idol?

How about the example of the institutional bureaucrat who has maneuvered themselves in a position where they have enormous control on whether or not certain projects get approved or disapproved, and are therefore able to set their own price in terms of bribes for their approval.

Is this bureaucrat getting back what they are putting in to society, or are they crooks whose lives are a negative?

reply to post by sirhumperdink

raising people that take advantage of a broken system is going to make that system even more broken

Thanks, yes, nice way of putting it.

This is what I see everyday, a broken system getting more and more dysfunctional.

And I see Tiger Moms as a part of the problem.

It is getting harder and harder for people passionate about making something happen in this world, as opposed to working for prestige and power, to keep the whole system running.

Yes, I see drug addicts and welfare moms as every bit as big of a problem.

ketsuko
Part of me wonders how soon the day is coming when corporations will start trolling through high schools to pick our their prospective future talents and basically signing contracts with them forming a modern apprentice structure. Essentially, we'll educate/train you, but you belong to us for a period not to exceed x years on these terms ...

But I digress ...

You can dislike what is said all you want, but it cannot be denied that certain ethnic/cultural groups have tended to succeed wherever they go. I would have added Germans to this. They have also tended to do pretty well for themselves as a group. However, if you look around the world, you will tend to see the same cultural groups coming to the top and succeeding again and again, even in the face of persecution.

Obviously, there is something they are doing right, and yes, Jews and some Asian cultures are in that mix. I would agree that a feeling of belief in their culture is part of it. If they didn't believe in their culture, they would have no reason to have adhered to it and preserved it for as long as they have. Look at Jews especially who have been exiles in the world for so long and yet persist.

We already do that, it's called 'The Military.' Probably the whole idea, and you nailed it.

reply to post by poet1b

Dear poet1b,

Thanks a lot for the thorough response. There are several issues that you've raised, and it would take some time to go through them all, but if you thinks it's really worthwhile, I suppose we can.

Let me get my feet on the ground first, with a firm understanding of your point (or conclusion). I'm only expressing what I think you're saying, so I could have it wrong.

Tiger Mom's steer their children into thoughts and activities which provide financial success, but give the children an entirely different childhood from what traditional American children have. This is bad for society because (and here I'm not clear)

A.) The kids become white collar criminals,

B.) They don't devote their life to social causes,

C.) They don't become famous musicians or celebrities, or

D.) They figure out a way to get more from the system than they put in.

Which of those, if not all of them, are you objecting to? Or is there some other way in which you think they're bad for society?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


Either you are not reading what I am posting, or instead of considering what I am saying, you are choosing to reinterpret what I am posting, rather than considering the actual points I am making.

Instead of trying to start over, how about if we continue with the journey and you try to respond to my response to your previous post.

Do you still claim a superiority complex is good? A virtue?

Do you see how the reality of how programmers were raised is quite different than the methods pushed by Tiger Mom.

Do you see how the example of the institutional bureaucrat is applicable, and a more likely outcome of Tiger Moms recommended child raising techniques?

Do you recognize the historical patterns of cultural failures of the cultures that Tiger Mom claims to be superior?

Oh, and the link I posted Tiger Mom brags about her daughters accomplishments in classical music, and I just pointed out that to claim to be number one, we should see her on American Idol, or at least some of these top musical talents getting some top hits.

Let's look at the reality, the people who get to the top are not raised the way Tiger Mom raises her children. They are typically Americans or Europeans who were allowed, even encouraged, to enjoy their childhoods.

Krazysh0t
The reason for all the companies requiring a college degree is because of the government's insane idea to make sure every kid can "afford" to go to college. I put afford in quotes since they aren't really affording it, just paying for it through credit that they probably won't be able to repay (ever). With all these kids getting degrees, it severely devalues them. Basically it allows a corporation to ask a potential employee, "Well all these other people have degrees. You with your experience, why don't you have a degree?" It's absurd, because any rational person knows that most jobs are learned through real world experience.

edit on 12-1-2014 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)

Personally, I don't have a degree. But, I've got about 20 years in my field. The only time the issue of a degree comes up is if I look for employment at a law firm, hospital, or university/school. They are intense with the idea that "Well, we have degrees...so you surely MUST need one too."

So, I stick to the business areas beyond those three. And I chuckle when I hear about people doing the same job I'm doing...and still paying off their college loans.


But, more to the point...this whole "Everyone deserves a college degree" BS....Is a complete fallacy and I utterly agree with your position on them. There are TONS of professions we as a society NEED that do NOT need or require degrees for!!! And perfectly respectful lines of work, too. Plumbers. Electricians. Etc.

All we have now is a production assembly line to place people into debt. These kids have no freaking clue what they want, which is why they swing for the fences with degrees in "video game design" and "fashion design". No value in the real world.

reply to post by zeroBelief

All we have now is a production assembly line to place people into debt. These kids have no freaking clue what they want, which is why they swing for the fences with degrees in "video game design" and "fashion design". No value in the real world.

Exactly, and the institutions that insist on degrees really want to weed out anyone who dares to challenge institutional authority.

They want mindless obedience. If they tell you to dump tons of radioactive waste into the ocean, do it. If they tell you to hire 12 year olds and work them 12 hour days seven days a week for survival wages, do it. Don't question anything.

poet1b
reply to post by zeroBelief

 

All we have now is a production assembly line to place people into debt. These kids have no freaking clue what they want, which is why they swing for the fences with degrees in "video game design" and "fashion design". No value in the real world.

Exactly, and the institutions that insist on degrees really want to weed out anyone who dares to challenge institutional authority.

They want mindless obedience. If they tell you to dump tons of radioactive waste into the ocean, do it. If they tell you to hire 12 year olds and work them 12 hour days seven days a week for survival wages, do it. Don't question anything.

At least we're not QUITE yet where they are in the UK...where they are privatizing the schools...with CORPORATIONS running them.....and the CORPORATIONS are doing "work training" classes...where students are "learning on the job", performing FREE menial labor for the corporation....

I truly hope we don't end up there any time soon....

reply to post by poet1b

Dear poet1b.

Do you still claim a superiority complex is good? A virtue?

I never claimed it was a virtue. I specifically said it wasn't a virtue or a non-virtue. If a person accurately assess his skills as superior, then he is being truthful and accurate. That is good for society.

Do you see how the reality of how programmers were raised is quite different than the methods pushed by Tiger Mom.

Former doper programmers were raised differently than Tiger Mom software engineers or doctors, yes.

Do you see how the example of the institutional bureaucrat is applicable, and a more likely outcome of Tiger Moms recommended child raising techniques?

No, and you don't either. Please show some evidence.

Do you recognize the historical patterns of cultural failures of the cultures that Tiger Mom claims to be superior?

No. At least if they are failures, they aren't much worse than ours.

Oh, and the link I posted Tiger Mom brags about her daughters accomplishments in classical music, and I just pointed out that to claim to be number one, we should see her on American Idol, or at least some of these top musical talents getting some top hits.

You do know that the Tiger Mom book was published in 2011, right? Would you care to give it a little time to work? And what percentage of American children are raised that way? They won't be a factor for years to come.

Let's look at the reality, the people who get to the top are not raised the way Tiger Mom raises her children. They are typically Americans or Europeans who were allowed, even encouraged, to enjoy their childhoods.

If you're saying that the leaders in their fields today are largely people who weren't raised according to Tiger Mom standards, I agree. The vast majority of anything in this country is done by people who aren't raised to Tiger Mom standards. So?

Now, since fair's fair, you can answer my single, relatively simple question. Thanks.

With respect,
Charles1952

Just an observation. I listened to the "tiger mom" speak.. really listened to her. I couldnt figure out if she was trying to convince me or herself that she was so awesome and knew what she was talking about. MANY Chinese and Chinese-Americans took issue with her claimimg this was THE Chinese way and THE correct way, when she illustrated the verbal abuse and belittling she did to her own children when they made mistakes. I personally take issue with many of her "methods".. unless it was my intention to build emotionally stunted robots.

reply to post by Advantage

Dear Advantage,

You may very well be correct, I expect you are, that harm can come from having a Tiger Mom. I'm beginning to think that any conceivable style of parenting has drawbacks.

I do not know the details of the Tiger Mom method. I don't know if it is flexible enough for parents with different personalities to apply it differently.

I think society faces a far greater danger from Single Moms, than from Tiger Moms. And I thought that was the point of the OP, that Tiger Children were bad for society.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


A superiority complex isn't just an assessment of one's skills to be superior, whether accurate or not, it is an overall belief that one is superior. In Tiger Mom's case, she is wrong, and that is being delusional.

Tiger's Mom culture of origin is a culture that has been stagnate for over a millennium, that went from being an empire, where no one had any rights, to that of being a communist state where no one has any rights. If Chinese culture, and the other cultures she identifies as superior, are in fact superior, what is she doing here. We should be willing to sell everything in order to get into the country where her culture originated, instead of the other way around.

"Former doper programmers?" You mean the people who pioneered the last tech revolution, and then there were the dopers/alcies who pioneered the one before that. When it comes to tech break through, the people who grew up living normal childhoods, who believed in enjoying life, have a much higher success rate than Tiger Mom's children.

Children who grow up forced into total conformity, as Tiger Mom advocates, are much more likely to become institutional bureaucrats, but I guess it would would be hard to fix statistics on that one.

Mother's from third world countries have been raising their children the way Tiger Mom describes for generations, the same that Tiger Mom's mother raised her. This is nothing new, just more out in the open.

The vast majority of anything in this country is done by people who aren't raised to Tiger Mom standards. So?

This country has been the most successful country in the history of mankind, so Tiger Mom should be trying to figure out why western nations are so successful, instead of trying to claim the ways of the failed culture from which she comes is superior.

Tiger Mom's steer their children into thoughts and activities which provide financial success, but give the children an entirely different childhood from what traditional American children have. This is bad for society because (and here I'm not clear)

It is a proven system for failure, as a society, as a culture, and as an economy. She teaches her kids classical music, and does not let them learn anything else, because she wants to turn us back to the 18th century.

I don't want to live in a world controlled by arrogant, paranoid, control freaks.

reply to post by poet1b


My ex-wife is Asian. We have a daughter together. Her parenting methods go beyond insane and has directly impacted our child in a very negative manner. I know several Asian mothers who are absolutely cruel to their kids. Now I'm sure not all Asian mothers are this way, in fact I'm sure it's a safe bet to say they aren't. But many are and it's deemed "OK". Beating kids that don't do well in school isn't OK. Making children kneel in salt and /or frozen peas because they failed a test isn't OK. Telling a child you don't love them because they got a C- on a paper isn't OK.

It's abuse, plain and simple and should be investigated by the authorities and the CPS. Cruelty isn't a cultural thing, it's a vicious circle kind of thing. The parents do it to their children because they were victims themselves. As is the case with my ex, which is a hard thing for me to deal with as I want to hate her for what she has done and continues to do. But I have to realize that she has a problem brought on by her experiences with her abusive mother.

Bottom line: It needs to stop. Asian parents who abuse their children either physically or emotionally (as this Tiger Mom obvious does) isn't OK and we should actively work to stop it.

reply to post by Auricom


My Asian baby moma has the same problem, although she isn't that cruel.

It is a very big part of the reason why we are not together. I had to leave her to get more control over how my daughter was raised. I know plenty of Asian moms, most are not cruel, but they want to exclude everything in their children's lives but academic success, and I think that is wrong.

If children are ever going to learn to be imaginative, and therefore innovative, they need to be given a level of freedom. This is the real success to U.S. Culture.