Things I just don't understand and questions I cannot get answered

reply to post by Brotherman

Thats fair enough, I wrote that in that manner as to not attract the prove it crowd, also it may overlap nicely in the Venn but as far as its significance within my application to what I believe versus what I know is still ongoing, then again I guess the same can be said for anyone with questions on similar sciences with similar beliefs

Heh. The attack of the Is/Not, Prove it bots. I have to say, being new here, I don't really know what the over all crowd is like, but I have to say I'm surprised that they didn't swarm this thread and happy that they haven't.

That's a big reason I phrased everything in questions; I'd like to hear how people deal with these issues, not to be told they don't exist and I just don't understand basic yadda yadda and where's my evidence?. To this day, and I do not exaggerate in the least, in all the discussions boards I have ever visited, I have seen an is not/prove it bot accept a piece of evidence exactly 0 times. A perfect 0-fer. Nothing is ever good enough because it is not about the evidence, it's about dismissing the evidence as a default.

Uh, whatever. I am wary of Certainists, as I, myself, suffer from terminal agnsotia.

reply to post by BlueMoonJoe


I don't understand in certain things how so many are very quick to make a firm stance when there is literally oceans of information towards one topic that it is impossible for a normal person to read and understand it all, this is where I am at, I have a pre notion of things, but with all the information available before I get through enough of all of it from all sides I have to remain neutral. I have had the attack of the bots in other threads hell one time I got a comment that I linked a vid from youtube the comment was like yeah youtube proof, it was quickly dismissed until pointed out that the youtube video was a recording of a video that aired in chinese media which was pretty relative to the op presented. Before that it was the video is fake. You will find those here but it isn't as bad as other places and for the most part if members keep civil here great learning and discussion actually takes place which is very rewarding in ways as I have had so much presented to me on this site.

reply to post by BlueMoonJoe


You're over-thinking this. Intelligence isn't as special as intelligent entities seem to think it is.

Intelligence is simply an elaboration of such common natural phenomena as feedback and homeostasis. Natural selection did the elaborating. It is all very wonderful, but there is not much about its evolution that is mysterious.

*

By the way, Brotherman, I suspect that the people who say the human brain 'lay idle' for some 200,000 years are talking through their hats. Maybe it took all that time to get to civilisational first base, or maybe we had to wait for some external event that triggered the evolution of modern culture and civilisation. Maybe it was simply a question of reaching a certain critical mass with respect to population.

I'm sure our ancestors used their full mental capacity, just as we do. There is nothing about a hunter-gatherer existence that selects for stupidity; quite the opposite, I should say.

reply to post by Astyanax


The evidence suggests otherwise.

reply to post by Brotherman


What evidence suggests otherwise?

reply to post by Astyanax


Read the whole paper I linked on page one, it clearly speaks for itself. They do make mention of changes in environment that could cause a massive change in learning behavior. I would imagine it would take at least 45 minutes to an hour to get through that one but it is worth the read if you are interested in these types of things.

Here I re linked for you

reply to post by Brotherman


Read it long ago; it's an old article. Ramachandran agrees with me. From your link:

I suggest that the so-called big bang occurred because certain critical environmental triggers acted on a brain that had already become big for some other reason. Source

Our brains weren't 'lying idle', he says; they were already hard at work.

reply to post by Astyanax

You're over-thinking this. Intelligence isn't as special as intelligent entities seem to think it is.

It's not?

Intelligence is simply an elaboration of such common natural phenomena as feedback and homeostasis. Natural selection did the elaborating. It is all very wonderful, but there is not much about its evolution that is mysterious.


Uh, all else aside, nothing in this discussion is "simply" anything. If it's no mystery, please explain when it arrived on the scene and how it arose from unintelligent matter. And please be specific. So far, you really haven't said anything with these vague assertions.

reply to post by BlueMoonJoe

Nothing in this discussion is "simply" anything.

Why not?

If it's no mystery, please explain when it arrived on the scene and how it arose from unintelligent matter.

When it arrived depends on your definition of intelligence. If you're talking human intelligence, probably around the time of Homo habilis, give or take a few ten thousand years. How it arose from unintelligent matter is well known; the mechanism of evolution by natural selection has over 150 years of development behind it.

reply to post by BlueMoonJoe

Is a tree not intelligent?
Is it just the human species that is considered 'intelligent'?
Questioning existence is the strangest thing.

Who wants to know What?


Why did the concept 'individual' arise?

reply to post by Astyanax

Why not?

Because in my experience, when one reduces the dazzling majesty of the development of life on earth by saying it's simply this or it's just that, they inevitably follow such with a vague and empty "explanation" that doesn't explain anything. It's like waving the magic wand of "confers a survival advantage" over every trait and somehow believing that one has explained anything. Something that explains everything explains nothing.

When it arrived depends on your definition of intelligence. If you're talking human intelligence, probably around the time of Homo habilis, give or take a few ten thousand years. How it arose from unintelligent matter is well known; the mechanism of evolution by natural selection has over 150 years of development behind it.

That doesn't explain anything at all. Selection doesn't create; it selects what has already emerged. How intelligence or consciousness emerged is a complete mystery.

BlueMoonJoe
Which leads us back to the where we started: when, exactly, did intelligence and purpose and intention come into the picture and by what alchemy did they arise from a universe sans intelligence, purpose, or intention?

By retro-causal psychic functioning- temporal loop baby yeah!

reply to post by BlueMoonJoe
Hi blue moon.I may have some info for you on the mechanism for creation.A few years ago while drawing near to GOD, I asked similar questions and the answers HE responded with, were answers that took time for me to assimilate according to my level of wisdom at that time.HE was most patient and considerate of my level of learning.HE often roused me from deep sleep states to a dream state, where HE would gently leave instructions in a step by step morning by morning manner.I recorded these dream instructions by both writing them down and more importantly (at least for me), drawing them.This process went on for 4 years.During that time HE showed me the mechanism for turning HIS Thoughts into vibrations, the shape of gravity,the structure of the soul of man, the structure of the atom, including the internal structure of the sub-atomic particles, why they are massless,why they are all the colors of the rainbow,the spiritual and scientific purposes for the Cords of Orion, why our neighbors who inhahit the planets in the Orion Constellation are interested in our progress,what HIS Power looks like in motion,and many many other scientific and spiritual phenomenon both directly and indirectly connected to some of your questions.HIS SON offers each of us many promises, and I simply put my trust in a few of them.HE said ask and you will receive, so I asked.If you can accept the understanding that the word Wisdom as used in the Bible and the word Science as used in modern day vernacular to describe the nature of things, are both referring to the same thing and lead to the same place, then I think I have info you would enjoy hearing.If not that's ok.The images HE showed me to draw were all connected to the same purposes and amazingly all drawn on the same page (I drew a lot as a child).HE showed me how to draw the first image which took many months, then to my surprise, showed me how to superimpose the next complex image on top of what i had already drawn the info in the next image was both connected to the previous image and contained further info as well.HE repeated this 5 times.My computer time is up.More later.GOD Bless

reply to post by BlueMoonJoe


That's fine. I'll go on thinking what I think, you go on believing what you believe, everyone's happy.

BlueMoonJoe
reply to post by Astyanax

 

Why not?

Because in my experience, when one reduces the dazzling majesty of the development of life on earth by saying it's simply this or it's just that, they inevitably follow such with a vague and empty "explanation" that doesn't explain anything. It's like waving the magic wand of "confers a survival advantage" over every trait and somehow believing that one has explained anything. Something that explains everything explains nothing.

When it arrived depends on your definition of intelligence. If you're talking human intelligence, probably around the time of Homo habilis, give or take a few ten thousand years. How it arose from unintelligent matter is well known; the mechanism of evolution by natural selection has over 150 years of development behind it.

That doesn't explain anything at all. Selection doesn't create; it selects what has already emerged. How intelligence or consciousness emerged is a complete mystery.

It hardly requires a leap of faith or warrants delusions of grandeur to scratch this itch. Without researching and relying solely on my well grounded eduction i'd put money on intelligence and consciousness evolving along with more complex body forms and sensory features. At the end of the day all we're really talking about here are electrical and chemical processes.

reply to post by helldiver

It hardly requires a leap of faith or warrants delusions of grandeur to scratch this itch. Without researching and relying solely on my well grounded eduction i'd put money on intelligence and consciousness evolving along with more complex body forms and sensory features. At the end of the day all we're really talking about here are electrical and chemical processes.

Heh. Hardly. At the end of the day, just as at the beginning, we are talking about something far more than electrical and chemical processes.

Face it, (or not, as is the more popular approach) by all materialist definitions, consciousness IS supernatural because it cannot be explained nor derived by the laws of physics or chemistry.

In fact, if it wasn't something each and every one of us experiences as our most primary and intimate experience, we would have no way whatsoever to prove that it even exists. In facter, we can't prove it exists. In factest, it is a complete mystery how it has arisen from insensate matter in the first place.

Consciousness IS supernatural. Try how one might, that simply cannot be explained away. It is a complete leap of faith to believe that it just evolved along with more complex forms.

Astyanax
reply to post by BlueMoonJoe

 

That's fine. I'll go on thinking what I think, you go on believing what you believe, everyone's happy.

Lol, I like how you worded that.
When you boil it down though what you "think" is really only a belief.
Quad

BlueMoonJoe
reply to post by helldiver

 

It hardly requires a leap of faith or warrants delusions of grandeur to scratch this itch. Without researching and relying solely on my well grounded eduction i'd put money on intelligence and consciousness evolving along with more complex body forms and sensory features. At the end of the day all we're really talking about here are electrical and chemical processes.

Heh. Hardly. At the end of the day, just as at the beginning, we are talking about something far more than electrical and chemical processes.

Face it, (or not, as is the more popular approach) by all materialist definitions, consciousness IS supernatural because it cannot be explained nor derived by the laws of physics or chemistry.

In fact, if it wasn't something each and every one of us experiences as our most primary and intimate experience, we would have no way whatsoever to prove that it even exists. In facter, we can't prove it exists. In factest, it is a complete mystery how it has arisen from insensate matter in the first place.

Consciousness IS supernatural. Try how one might, that simply cannot be explained away. It is a complete leap of faith to believe that it just evolved along with more complex forms.

I'd agree that it is the definition of consciousness that poses a problem but disagree entirely that it's existence is a complete mystery.

Would you disagree that even simple photoreceptors as precursors to the complex eye would require a sufficient nervous system?

Intelligence and consciousness can surely be validated by natural evolution. Keep in mind that natural evolution can't explain why we, or life in general exists, any more than it can explain why the universe exists.

I think you are arguing the philosophical and not the evolutionary.

reply to post by BlueMoonJoe


Lol wow more BluemoonJoe arguments from ignorance??

'We cannot explain x, therefore it's supernatural/a god....'

If some of us have to induce spectres and phantasms to explain our gaps in knowledge, maybe, just maybe this 'leap' in intelligence wasn't all that great...

Prezbo369
reply to post by BlueMoonJoe

 

Lol wow more BluemoomJoe arguments from ignorance??

'We cannot explain x, therefore it's supernatural/a god....'

Way to go on answering a few of those questions! GOOD JOB!
Your intellectual faculties are ASTOUNDING!
Thanks for adding that useful information for all of us.
We mine as well shut the thread down now......huh?

Seriously,
If you have something intellectual or important you want to add then please do so.
If not then please do not troll.
Think about the questions at hand. How would you address them? Do not be afraid to think for yourself.

God gave you an outstanding computing system...........try putting it to use
Quad