Atheism is an absurd idea that produces mental illness

Was there not a rather nice request from SO to ask for us all to give a silence on religious intolerance for the holiday seasons?!

How much is that to ask of a person who owns the damn site to give it a rest for a "1 whole week?!"

Are you freaking kidding me

ETA: To Lucid Lunacy and whoever else I don't care about on the thread: Whatever.
Kinda sick of the nonsense on this site lately anyway. Have at it. Don't care.

snypwsd
God didnt create religon, people with schizophrenia did.

You bring up a valid point. People hear 'voices' today. There are psychiatrically ill people today that have spans of delusion. No reason not to think it wasn't just as true in Biblical times. Those people either needed an exorcist or were prophets. Perhaps

Although I'm personally in favor of:

“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.”

― Mark Twain

unb3k44n7
Was there not a rather nice request from SO to ask for us all to give a silence on religious intolerance

Not a request I will ever adhere to. I fully respect his power and privilege to punish me for it. As you said, he's the Site Owner. A good one too.

To Lucid Lunacy and whoever else I don't care about on the thread: Whatever.

Well I am sorry you don't care. I care about your thoughts on the matter. I very much appreciate ATS, both staff and community at large. First and foremost I post out of principle, and if those principles are in conflict with ATS I will side with my principles. Silencing my thoughts on religion would qualify. My convictions and honesty is what I offer ATS to begin with. I can appreciate the benevolence of what SO was intending, but in the grand scheme I see it detrimental to many things.

So let me get this straight.

People who thought it was a good idea to live according to the words of a burning bush are the sane ones?

mahatche
So let me get this straight.

People who thought it was a good idea to live according to the words of a burning bush are the sane ones?

I wouldn't put it in such childish terms as that, but yup. The so-called normal people are the insane ones.

The Spiritual Gift of Madness: The Failure of Psychiatry and the Rise of the Mad Pride Movement

You are so right, asking question and not just accepting what your told
is utterly irresponsible, checking the facts instead of believing something
based on the merit of the religion of the person telling you is the epitome
of mental illness. Demanding the truth instead of lies is just such a poor judgment call.

Religion breeds paranoia, fear and anger more than any of the goody lovey
feeling many attribute to it. Religion has a real problem with honesty as
well, at least that's what i have seen.

reply to post by BlueMule


I get the impression you take the pluralist position (based on other threads as well). That religion is true. Religious gods are true. In the sense they are all valid spiritual paths. Yet… there is obvious conflicts. Glaring foundational conflicts between the World's religions on dogmatic level. To take a pluralist position is to fail to recognize them… that's not rational. How are those drastic differences reconciled? That would render the creator schizophrenic or at the least incompetent. Both being direct violations of the religious predicates normally prescribed to 'god' i.e omniscience and omnipotence.

As far as sanity is concerned you'd at least have to declare one religion as truthful (in lieu of those differences). Now that being rational is another matter entirely! You could be consistent in your religious beliefs, but doing so on faith alone is not rational at all. Reason and faith are by definition mutually exclusive. To 'take a leap of faith' means to do so without reason. Belief without reason is faith.

What are you really advocating? I don't want to put words in your mouth. So please correct and clarify. What is your position in regards to religion? All religions?

If it's a specific one please say so. If it's a pluralist position please reconcile.

TL;DR

But I'm sure it was a Cool Story Bro.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


THANK YOU! That was extremely helpful ! I had not heard of these and had to look them up... (Pandeism and Panendeism)
Checked out what some Physicists said about it. Not really any answers, but did say it works as good as any of the other models we have going for us.
Thanks again,
Happy Christmas Day..!

Thanks for the post LL and Merry Christmas!

Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by BlueMule

 

I get the impression you take the pluralist position (based on other threads as well). That religion is true. Religious gods are true.

True vs false, eh? It seems like a no-brainer to think of religion in terms of true vs false, fact vs fiction doesn't it. Which one, if any, is true and factual is a seemingly reasonable question. But it isn't. It isn't the right way to approach religion at all.

In the sense they are all valid spiritual paths. Yet… there is obvious conflicts. Glaring foundational conflicts between the World's religions on dogmatic level. To take a pluralist position is to fail to recognize them… that's not rational. How are those drastic differences reconciled?

By penetrating the crunchy exoteric level and reaching the creamy esoteric level and beyond.

'All religions, all this singing, one song.
The differences are just illusion and vanity.
The sun's light looks a little different on this
wall than it does on that wall, and a lot different
on this other one, but it's still one light.'

~ Rumi

That would render the creator schizophrenic or at the least incompetent. Both being direct violations of the religious predicates normally prescribed to 'god' i.e omniscience and omnipotence.

But you're looking at 'pluralism' from the stationary myopic perspective of your local cultural concepts of 'creator'. You have not transcended your local culture, your local concepts. But that's exactly what a mystic must do. Why are you not equally able to look at the concept of creator from the perspective of, say, Brahmanism? Why are you automatically defaulting to your own local concepts? Perhaps because you're neither a mystic nor a comparativist? Perhaps because you're stuck on the exoteric level of your local time and place?

As far as sanity is concerned you'd at least have to declare one religion as truthful (in lieu of those differences). Now that being rational is another matter entirely! You could be consistent in your religious beliefs, but doing so on faith alone is not rational at all. Reason and faith are by definition mutually exclusive. To 'take a leap of faith' means to do so without reason. Belief without reason is faith.

“The cultural wars and debates out there between what’s usually called science and religion are again, I think simplistic to the extreme. The religion side is often parodied as the kind of most literalistic and intolerant forms of fundamentalism and the scientific side is often parodied as the most materialistic and intolerant forms of scientism. So you have pure faith on one side and pure reason on the other and we’re supposed to believe, somehow, that these two things don’t meet in the middle. I find that completely unconvincing.” -Jeffrey Kripal

What are you really advocating?

1. Comparativism as a modern mystical tradition that cuts through the BS from BOTH sides- yours and theirs.

I've posted this vid numerous times and I doubt a single person has actually watched it. Well I'll keep at it. Consider it my Christmas present to you, LL.



2. Shakespearean mystical ideas.

a. The idea of an inclusive system, a grand spiritual synthesis, reconciling religious extremes in an integrated vision of union with the Divine Love.

b. The idea of syncretic mythology, in which all archaic mythological figures and events are available as a thesaurus of glyphs or token symbols - the personal language of the new metaphysical system.

c. The idea of this concordance of mythological (and historical) figures simply as a Memory System, a tabulated chart of all that can be known, of history, of the other world, and of the inner worlds, and in particular of spiritual conditions and moral types.

d. The idea of this system as a theatre.

e. The idea of these images as internally structured poetic images - the idea of the single image as a package of precisely folded multiple meanings, consistent with the meanings of a unified system.

f. The idea of as-if-actual visualization as the first practical essential for effective meditation (as in St Ignatius Loyola's Spiritual Disciplines, as well as in Cabbala)

g. The idea of meditation as a conjuring, by ritual magic, of hallucinatory figures - with whom conversations can be held, and who communicate intuitive, imaginative visions and clairvoyance.

h. The idea of drama as a ritual for the manipulation of the soul.

3. Defending parapsychology against the shenanigans of pseudo-skeptic activists.

If it's a specific one please say so. If it's a pluralist position please reconcile.

“Christian, Jew, Muslim, shaman, Zoroastrian, stone, ground, mountain, river, each has a secret way of being with the mystery, unique and not to be judged” ― Rumi

I do not think all Atheists have a mental illness. I do find it amusing though, how so many claim they are above Christianity as in....... things written down in a book by men they do not know or have ever met.... and is the point made by so many Atheists towards Christians, however

Atheists get a lot of their information from science facts proposed by scientists, whom they in all likely hood have not met. These scientists write books and theories etc.. that the Atheists take word for word sometimes. Sometimes these scientists and their facts are found out to be wrong. This makes hypocrites out of many Atheists.

There is no mental illness in choosing to try and sort out what they deem are the facts though. However I do not care for the way they have been treating the Christians as of late. Don't like Christmas, who cares? No one, go home, make your coffee chill out. Want to celebrate solstice, do so? Want to celebrate without baby Jesus...then by all means do so.


One of the religions mentioned by the op is Buddhism. I have been learning all about Buddhism and its origins lately. Siddharta Gautama was an odd sort; he cared not for women, thought they were only filled with lust, envy, and silliness and were unimportant. Yet I can still see the good in Buddhism, how over time things have changed yet the religion as a whole has remained mostly intact. My point is I am not a Buddhist, I disagree with some of its teachings but will pay a Buddhsit the same respect I pay a Christian, an Atheist a Muslim etc.... Why can't others do the same?

All religions and non alike have their good parts and bad

To the people who celebrate Christmas...Merry Christmas and to those who don't....have a good day

reply to post by bwinwright


Ranting wall of text from the OP or what. They might want to try shorter paragraphs.

I'm an atheist because I'm logical and only believe facts I can measure or observe, or that can be measured or observed by fellow scientists.

The higher the IQ the more likely someone is to be an atheist. The better the education in the sciences someone has, the less likely they are to be religious.

Therefore: the better someone understands the physical function of the universe, the less likely they are to be religious.

Get over religious delusions, live within the facts.

reply to post by bwinwright


While I can agree with you on some of this, there are elements that I cannot.

1. Not all Atheists hate the idea of an ordered, structured religion. The basic definition of an Atheist (at least, to one of my friends) is that they are a person that believes that they are in control of their life, and that the "greater force" (God, Divine Consciousness, Thing that oversees us, etc) does not exist.

2. If you were to compare the difference between my Atheist friends, and those that are Christian, the only major difference is that one may pray, and another will do nothing. Both help people out, live their lives the best way that they can, and try to make the best decisions possible.

3. If you want to call Atheist a "bad idea", then you might as well call all religions a bad idea. All of them are based on a belief. For example, the Bible, Koran, Book of Mormon, Egyptian book of the dead, etc that currently exist today has been changed, altered, mistranslated, or even passed down incorrectly. NOTE: Excluding Scientology, as the sci-fy book it's based on is still relatively recent in comparison to the others .

Now, we can argue about the authenticity of said books until I go to purgatory - not my purpose with these points. I could also say that it's absurd to follow the writings of a book that might not be the entire account of what happened, as opposed to not following the book.

4. Atheism does not promote mental illnesses any more than any established religion. For example, I could use that logic to say that Islam promotes mental illness because a lot of the terrorists follow Islam and blow themselves up. Or, I could also say Christianity also promotes mental illness because strict followers deal out punishments to other people because by definition they have sinned (as far as mental illnesses go, homophobia and mass hysteria come to mind...Witch burning was a awesome idea; bet the Atheists came up with that one ).

Now, I don't have my copy of DSM-IV on hand, but I'm sure there's a disorder where the patient believes that they are doing the work of God, Allah, Buddha, by injuring or killing certain people. Also, most of the beliefs in something outside of the normal (aka, reincarnation, ghosts, psychic abilities) is mentioned in DSM-IV, so by that logic alone I have a mental disorder alright, as do anyone else that believes that they've seen something religious, paranormal or metaphysical. Sounds like most Atheists are safe

5. The main point to all this is that it's a belief - you purpose it needs to be taken care of with education and forgiveness. Isn't the fact that you are ranting about this showing that you are ignorant of what Atheism is?

For example, I went out on Halloween this year, and a guy passed me a pamphlet that said, upon opening the first page "You are a sinner, and the price you will pay is death". I looked at him, and made a comment that I don't drink, hold the door open for people, and try to help others. He looked at me, and said, "Yes, that may be true, and God blesses you for it; however, you still have sinned, and Jesus is your only hope". To me, that's an absurd idea, because what that says is that nomatter what I do, I'm a sinner, so I might as just well run someone over, because I'm still a sinner (missing the rolling-eyes smiley).

This next example shows how everyone should react, regardless of which religion you are from, and which religions you consider "absurd".

I was walking my usual stretch of road one nice summer day. On my way back, I ran into two people dressed in suits and ties. They asked if I had some time to stop and chat, which I did. Now, they didn't instantly tell me that I was a sinner, but they asked what I felt my purpose in life was.

Instead of telling them that I was Agnostic, I simply told them that I didn't know where my place in life was. I lived in the moment, respected others as long as they respected me, didn't partake in activities that I felt would harm me in the future, and made just enough to live, but not be overly greedy. Imagine their surprise when I told them what religion I partake in. Not only that, but there were no looks of disgust, no offers to save me, nothing. They asked for permission to lead a prayer, and asked for permission to leave their material with me - The feel I got was that they would only do this with my consent, and not push the issue if I didn't want it.

My point OP? Maybe, you are the one that needs educating. Not all Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Agnostics are alike, just as not all Atheists fall into the same boat. As a last example, I could take this post and assume that everyone in your religion is a bigot, just as you can assume all Agnostics like to butt into conversations about other religions. We both know that all people in your religious beliefs are not bigots, and that I am the only one in my religious niche that likes to nitpick about other religions.

-fossilera

reply to post by bwinwright


Thanks for your rant, although I didn't get past the first sentence. I find that people I see ranting on street corners appear -- more often than not -- to be suffering from mental illness. I'm figuring it isn't a lot different on the internet.

Wow, its like it was aimed at me, an atheist who suffers mental illness..

Nice try at a troll but no cigar...

The problem is you actually don't understand an atheist, you think we don't believe in an intelligent force which actually most do and you say we don't believe in a god like image which is also wrong. With the vastness of space and the millions of years of time in this planets creation we have evolved from literally NOTHING to what we are today, we were never created in some garden of Eden.

Your 'god' I believe was more god like and not the figure portrayed, rather an alien species that visited and possibly aided the early humans to move ahead faster, these would be considered gods to them. I see THEM as the intelligent forces behind our evolution.

As for faith, yes I have it but its in myself, not in some divine story created to control, our duty as intelligent beings is to survive and learn, not to worship, worshipping anything simply detracts from the learning.

I refuse to get into the "but who designed the aliens, and who designed the things that created the aliens" etc to ultimate levels of boredom. I much prefer the scientific tried and tested idea of evolution from cell matter, our cells adapted to their environment and the process expanded.

Lest we forget one of the largest creators and forms of mental illness...Religion..

Right back at cha...

reply to post by bwinwright

I don't believe in the god athiests don't believe in either.

Here's an idea for a bumper sticker: God prefers agnostics.

That's not a statement that a single unseen Supreme Being actually exists or doesn't.

Agnosticism is the logical balance between the robotically-programmed extremes/absolutes of religions and atheism. However, there are 2 basic types of agnostics, as I see it: the right kind and the wrong kind. The former are those with enough honesty and accuracy to acknowledge that the unseen or unexplained is simply UNKNOWN. The latter are those who claim that EVERYTHING of the unexplained is eternally outside of science and eternally UNKNOWABLE, which is an entirely religious claim of mere BELIEF.

Whether it's God or simply Nature - however either would be properly defined - that made humanity an intelligent species, the purpose of our being endowed with an intellect is for us to truly USE it, not to blindly follow any (actual or de facto) religion or anything else of the ghastly-corrupt existing political world.

And this is my rant in reply.....

Have you ever thought, I mean taken a step outside of your closed mind, and put some serious thought into. That maybe, just maybe TPTB created religion God/ Mohamed (you name you're Saviour) to control the masses of the yesteryears, to create a form of public order and rules to live by. Also, to give people hope in their time of need, when there was none... I must say, I have only been preached to in RE (religious education) at junior school and that was in the Christian Faith. But in my eyes that was enough to have good understanding that hogwash and religion are never far apart.

I see greater likelihood of the original stories manifested of the supposed Messiahs, being actual descendnts from other planets. When you have a good think about it, the possibility of an advanced physical technological civilisation creating us, compared to a spiritual, non physical God. That supposedly put their saviours out years ago, when the world of the "Now" has been in the greatest need of being shown the way. This God of yours, in my eyes does not exist. If he did, he wouldn't have let all the pain in the world that's happened since, happen.

Take a step outside and see, Who's seen by society as the more likely to have a metal illness the person who believes in a spiritual mythical being from another realm, (originating from a fabricated story from the powers that be) that may or may not exist? Or belief in a physical being from another planet that many have seen, has been well documented throughout history, and the more science evolves, looks more and more certain every day.

That's my 2 cents.

GORR

reply to post by bwinwright


Hey, you're entitled to this opinion, I don't think your chosen deity agrees with your stance, but that's between you and him/her/it I suppose.

Come the day of your judgement, if you believe being hateful is the way through, then so be it.

It's your (after)life!

bwinwright
Atheism is an absurd idea that produces mental illness

Um .... nope. Here's a quick education for you on what produces mental illness -
(and atheism isn't there) Web MD - What Causes Mental Illness

False, illogical, and absurd beliefs naturally lead to mental disease and discord.

False, illogical, and absurd beliefs naturally lead to mental illness and discord. Sure, those things CAN do that. And organized religions are full of false, illogical, and absurd beliefs. A few examples of false, illogical and absurd beliefs of organized religions that have lead to mental illness and/or discord ...

- Onanism .. God is going to send you to hell because you practice birth control. One billion Catholics are supposed to be following this teaching of their church. Imagine the damage done to people who have been forced to pop out baby after baby after baby, all because they think God wants them to. Babies they can't afford. The tension that follows ... the poverty ... the mental problems the children will have being 'just one more' of a dozen kids in the family ...

- Eid al-Adha ... One billion Muslims celebrating a man, who may or may not have existed, trying to murder his son at the command of 'heavenly voices'. And the brutal Old Testament mentality of the people who not only celebrate this but who also believe that stoning a person to death because they don't believe in God like them is a good thing. Brutal "I"m right and everyone else is expendable" attitude. 'Life is cheap' attitude. Imagine the damage done to people ...

- Moses, Joshua ... 1/2 the planet is of the 'Abrahamic' thought process and they celebrate Moses and Joshua invading a peaceful land; butchering every living thing; sacking and stealing the goods; and claiming that land as their own all at the supposed command of their 'God'. If that were to happen today, we'd call these people terrorists and yet 1/2 the planet thinks these people are heroes.

All destructive behavior is the result of error or false beliefs.

And 'god' believing people throughout history have been just as guilty of destructive behavior based on error or false religious beliefs as those who don't believe in God.


To the OP ... I'm sorry but you haven't proven that Atheism causes mental illness. You stated that the false, illogical, and absurd beliefs of atheists naturally lead to mental disease and discord, but you haven't shown how atheism supposedly does that. I've shown how certain religious beliefs do. I'm just not seeing your point being made.

I think my biggest gripe is that the atheists I met equate belief in a higher power with belief in the bible.
Their line of thinking is that if you believe in god; that belief automatically makes you a christian. Of course, these are mostly Western christians I'm talking about.
It's a rather strange line of thinking.
It IS possible to believe in a higher form that created all of this without adhering to any religion.
I think I would consider myself a Deist. I believe in a original creator, but I'm highly suspicious of the idea that he/she/it participates in our daily lives and the universe around us.
To me, he's more of a watchmaker that simply put it together and set it in motion and then leaves it to do what it's supposed to do.