Free speech "nazis" : "We know in Germany...where free speech can lead to: National Socialism c

Clemens Heni, director of the Berlin International Center for the Study of Antisemitism, has crafted a piece of double speak that would make George Orwel blush: Germany is not allowed free speech because it might lead to Nazism!

Germany has no free speech and for good reason. We know in Germany and Austria where free speech can lead to: National Socialism.

m.theglobeandmail.com...

I know this thread will probably get shutdown, but just to show you, why that is...

There isn't much of a story here though, is there?

Someone says something stupid and is mocked as a result seems to be the gist of it.

KingIcarus
There isn't much of a story here though, is there?

Someone says something stupid and is mocked as a result seems to be the gist of it.

Yeah, I guess silencing free speech is never a headliner or anything, I mean the entire nation was up in arms over what a reality tv star said, but that's tv, that's important, this is just the entire country of Germany. (sarcasm)

Sorry - what free speech has been silenced here?

If you're complaining about Mein Kampf being effectively banned in Germany then that's just stupid, imo of course. Plenty of things are banned/illegal in Germany relating to Nazism - not really out of any fear that it'll make a comeback, more that - as it turned out - Nazism was an extremely destructive force that has shamed Germany for decades.

Of course, modern Germans have no need to be ashamed of something that happened before they were even born - but lets not forget that the living grandparents of many modern Germans actively took part in Nazism so it remains an issue that the country collectively agonises over to some degree.

filosophia

KingIcarus
There isn't much of a story here though, is there?

Someone says something stupid and is mocked as a result seems to be the gist of it.

Yeah, I guess silencing free speech is never a headliner or anything, I mean the entire nation was up in arms over what a reality tv star said, but that's tv, that's important, this is just the entire country of Germany. (sarcasm)

maybe it has something to do with this, and the relationship it has to the past
www.bbc.co.uk...

How are people supposed to remember their history if certain parts are made illegal to discuss?
That's a surer path to doing the same thing over again if that's really their concern.
Let somebody think they have power next thing you know they start telling everyone what they may and may not do.
Not much has changed since mankind first decided they needed "leadership".

reply to post by Asktheanimals


I can assure you that Nazism is extremely well taught in German schools - but instead of poring over the complete lies and nationalistic fervour that underpinned it, they focus on the inconsistencies and hypocrisy of the Nazi ideal.

In any event, even in Germany, it is very easy to find a copy of Mein Kampf if you so wished - millions of them were printed after all. The German people have simply decided that no more should be printed and that it shouldn't be available through libraries, schools, universities and suchlike.

It isn't wildly different to the way a lot of books are on the US banned list. I don't see people complaining that 'free speech' is being strangled because they can't get Huckleberry Finn or Catcher in the Rye out of their local library in some states.

you know, I think the people of Germany can determine what groups they will allow. we here in America and from other countries should stay the hell out of their political business, unless it has a direct effect on us. I get tired of the way we stick our noses in other countries business....the rest of the world has a hell of a lot more real and historical common sense about these situations, than we do here in the US.

reply to post by KingIcarus


Sorry but "the people" did not decide this,

But last week the government abruptly cancelled the project, citing complaints from some Holocaust survivors. It also announced plans to try to stop any attempt to publish the book after the copyright expires.
The decision stunned the institute and set up a showdown with the historians who vowed to press ahead. “We will certainly continue with that project,” said the institute’s director Andreas Wirsching, who added that funding will be found elsewhere. “I think we need a sort of reference, scientific reference, of this text which is a very important historical source. We need a sort of reference which attracts attention and which doesn’t allow others to publish less serious work.”

The government is going against their own laws to prevent the book from being published even with scholarly criticism of it.

reply to post by KingIcarus

I can assure you that Nazism is extremely well taught in German schools - but instead of poring over the complete lies and nationalistic fervour that underpinned it, they focus on the inconsistencies and hypocrisy of the Nazi ideal.

I hope they do spend SOME time on the positive aspects of the Nazi Party ...AS IT WAS SEEN..by those who came to energetically support and back them right into power.

I think if a school setting focuses on only the hindsight and negative, then it's a simple matter to say 'Look how stupid they were! That can NEVER happen again....of course not! We wouldn't fall for it!'.

It's my opinion that a very powerful course on it may be, from day 1, presenting the whole thing as the Germans had it presented before anyone could have known better ...and see by midterms, without ever backing up from the Pro-position ...how many students actually come to agree with things the second half can be shown for truth behind the propaganda I'll bet an uncomfortable number WOULD fall for.

All this in the educational setting, of course.

jimmyx
you know, I think the people of Germany can determine what groups they will allow. we here in America and from other countries should stay the hell out of their political business, unless it has a direct effect on us. I get tired of the way we stick our noses in other countries business....the rest of the world has a hell of a lot more real and historical common sense about these situations, than we do here in the US.

What are you implying here? That me making a thread about this somehow is similar to America's invasion of Iraq? I'm flattered but it's not the same thing.

America is not interferring with this decision, if anything they would praise the silencing of free speech, so yeah, so much for nonintervention.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I understand there is some focus on the positive notion of a united Germany under Nazism, and indeed the growth of German influence on Europe. I think that gets a bit overshadowed by some of the other stuff though.

It is worth remembering that there are a couple of very good reasons for the popularity of the Nazis at the time.

1. Germany had been utterly humiliated after the First World War and was in utterly dreadful decline. The Nazis offered hope, and the promise of making Germany powerful again - which was very attractive at the time because ordinary Germans had become poor and had seen ther living standards plummet. The Nazis also blamed the Jews for Germany's state which was very clever as Jewish businesses were amongst the few success stories of post-WWI Germany, something ordinary people could see in their own neighbourhoods. It was probably the Nazi's masterstroke actually.

2. There was quite a significant anti-Nazi movement within Germany, but this was brutally crushed at every opportunity. Again, anti-Nazi dissent was painted as 'Jewish lies'.

reply to post by KingIcarus

I understand there is some focus on the positive notion of a united Germany under Nazism, and indeed the growth of German influence on Europe. I think that gets a bit overshadowed by some of the other stuff though.

Let me back up and clarify that because I've gotten my paws into hot soup before over being totally misunderstood there. The emotions and current sentiments among some segments are still so powerful as to make it anything but a historic context, far too often. I am 100% and totally focused on presentation of history on it. Nothing more.

I see nothing..absolutely nothing whatsoever positive that actually DID come from that organization and political movement. Nothing. Everything accomplished was accomplished by Germans...who happened to be motivated at gun point, at times, by that system.

What I point out is that Nazis didn't force their way into power over the top of a scared public. They were rallied in....celebrated...demanded to take power and save the Reichland. At the time, they LOOKED like they could, would and ..for a time..did.

It's that play on propaganda which made normal people fall for something so totally, that even at the end of the war ...many Germans were in states of utter shock to be faced, directly, with what had been done in their name all that time, as the record and living accounts indicate.

Excluding HOW that all came to happen by the positive light people HAD fallen for? Well...Thats how we repeat it while confidently declaring it can't happen again, IMO.

filosophia

jimmyx
you know, I think the people of Germany can determine what groups they will allow. we here in America and from other countries should stay the hell out of their political business, unless it has a direct effect on us. I get tired of the way we stick our noses in other countries business....the rest of the world has a hell of a lot more real and historical common sense about these situations, than we do here in the US.

What are you implying here? That me making a thread about this somehow is similar to America's invasion of Iraq? I'm flattered but it's not the same thing.

America is not interferring with this decision, if anything they would praise the silencing of free speech, so yeah, so much for nonintervention.

edit on 22-12-2013 by filosophia because: (no reason given)

invasion of Iraq?...huh?...in my opinion, Germany and it's people have a lot better handle on propaganda, from it's subtle beginnings of nationalistic pride, to it's horrendous catastrophic failure....I think Americans should actually try to learn from historical failures, rather than stick their noses in the sand, and say it could never happen here. ignorance and pride are no substitutes for wisdom.

"Free Speech" does not, contrary to popular belief, mean that you can say what you want without fear of consequence. It just means you can say whatever you want, but you accept the consequence of what you said. That consequence could be a court case for slander, or a jail term for the promotion of Nazism (illegal in Germany).

Also Mein Kampf is no longer illegal to own within Germany, and even when it was, it was still readily obtainable for scholastic purposes. You just had to be able to demonstrate a reason. It is however, out of print within Germany, and they won't permit new copies to be printed within Germany. Thats all.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I completely get your point.

I think the 'positive' angle is presented as Germans working together can achieve big things. Obviously, that should be focused on something other than Nazism, but it's a fair point.

FWIW, Germany is an extremely 'together' country - more so than most. I think a lot of that comes from the collective need to come to terms with the past.

As for Mein Kampf, I'm sure there'll be a point in Germany's future where it can be normalised and the restrictions on it be lifted. I actually read it at university (I'm a Brit) and it's absurd almost to the point of ridiculousness - it's also painfully boring for the main part. I think for Germans though it's simply too powerful a symbol of their national tragedy at present. It really wasn't all that long ago really.

I suspect attitudes might begin to change when there's no-one left who lived in that period... it's just tricky for their government as the copyright expires before they've reached that point.

reply to post by KingIcarus


I can understand that completely, for how you explain the sensitivity, now that I stop by how you put that.

I recall an afternoon I mentioned a name from the Vietnam war to my dad and I had a very different impression of the man's conduct and Service history within the public eye. (Not a public figure and not important on names). Despite the fact we'd talked about almost everything, and some really ugly aspects of general history to that war? Saying that one name in a positive context brought a visceral reaction which was as close to unprovoked physical attack as I think I ever saw him come. He didn't even realize he'd come half way to doing it either...as the shock and horror in his eyes a moment later showed so clearly.

It shocked me to my toes...

So in that way? Hmm... I do see your point.

reply to post by filosophia


“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.”
― Voltaire
Remember, discussion reduced the "official victim" count from 6 million to 1.5 million jews.
I guess the jews who started the holocaust lie forgot to check with the census.
I'm not saying jews didn't die, buy christians, muslims, Buddhists, Etc. died as well, and not in the way you are lead to believe either.
And history is written by the victor.
Any suppression of discussion is blatant coverup in action....
There are things we are not allowed to discuss on ATS...Hmm...

Wrabbit2000
I hope they do spend SOME time on the positive aspects of the Nazi Party ...AS IT WAS SEEN..by those who came to energetically support and back them right into power.

I think if a school setting focuses on only the hindsight and negative, then it's a simple matter to say 'Look how stupid they were! That can NEVER happen again....of course not! We wouldn't fall for it!'.

It's my opinion that a very powerful course on it may be, from day 1, presenting the whole thing as the Germans had it presented before anyone could have known better ...and see by midterms, without ever backing up from the Pro-position ...how many students actually come to agree with things the second half can be shown for truth behind the propaganda I'll bet an uncomfortable number WOULD fall for.

All this in the educational setting, of course.

I agree with you 100%.

Perhaps some governments would like to downplay many aspects of Nazi Germany so that people won't notice how many parallels there are in many governments today.

How easy would it be to make comparisons between the Gestapo and the NSA? Could people tell the difference between Hitler's justifications for war and those in use today? Or what happened to Jews, Gypsies, and other undesireables in countries that Germany occupied as compared to people in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.?

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Wrabbit2000
I can understand that completely, for how you explain the sensitivity, now that I stop by how you put that.

Excellent post.
The picture you shared of the situation with your father is on the spot.
I'm very impressed.

ETA: OT:
As KingIcarus stated, there is more than enough thorough evaluation, investigation and analysis into the history of the Nazi regime.

However, those who sent our country into the darkest episode in our history, persecuted, terrorized, tortured and murdered countless people and set the world on fire in a war that killed millions and millions of people, and thus left a mark on this nation for generations... simply lost their right of free speech.
(Yes, committing genocide and starting a worldwar can actually end your right of free speech.)