Spirituality as Costume

reply to post by Itisnowagain

Babies are born without words and ideas.
Words and concepts are secondary.

Babies are also born without teeth, hair, the ability to walk, the ability to see past a few feet in front of their face, the ability to hold their head up, to chew, to clean themselves. Is the ideal you're proposing? That we should act like babies? Is cleaning oneself secondary to laying in one's own poop?

Please state in words what reality is.

Reality can appear as a word but what is it made of? What is the present moment made of?
In this moment are there only words arising or is there colour and sound and sensation?

I've passed through these doors long ago. I recognize the moment by simply existing. Making a principle of it isn't in any way rewarding for me.

Aphorism
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

If it is beyond all those then why is he talking about it? Why are we conceptualizing it? The very fact that we conceptualize it makes it conceptual. There's nothing of spirituality outside of conception.

If you were anywhere near being enlightened you'd know that experiences in certain realms or in certain states of consciousness don't translate that easily into words, it's occult philosophy/esotericism /mysticism 101.

The map is not the territory.

"I must state clearly that my teaching is a method to experience reality and not reality itself, just as a finger pointing at the moon is not the moon itself. A thinking person makes use of the finger to see the moon. A person who only looks at the finger and mistakes it for the moon will never see the real moon."

I agree with you that spirituality is a costume to many people. I would hesitate to say that all people wear it as a costume. Most people that know me personally have no idea what my spirituality is. They just know that I'm a helpful, honest person. ATS knows about my beliefs, because I want to try to help people that might need a little direction finding their own spirituality.

The fact that our own truths are relative to our own experience doesn't negate their value to the community. You see, I have been able to judge the kind of experiences I was having by comparing it with other people's stories. When I found similarities in actual experience, those are the one I would listen too more closely. I'm not just seeking spiritual answers - I'm seeking the Holy Grail of Philosophy: Truth. I believe truth is out there somewhere waiting to be discovered.

Spirituality can be based on different motives. There are many spiritual teachings that lead to narcissism and self-worship. Personally, I ended up on the path called "seeking happiness", and its working out pretty well for me. I wish you well on your own personal spiritual journey.

reply to post by Aphorism


Can I just say that Hitler was a #ing lunatic? And even though he was "spiritual", his spirituality was deranged and dangerous?

May God protect us from ever having to deal with someone with such a conservative, xenophobic spirituality.

I know, nowadays, no such ideology exists, other than Islamofascism.

Why?

I don't choke at the thought of it. Spiritual is not easy to define, but you can generally say that spiritual means: highly meaningful; spiritual may also possess existential and metaphysical qualities.

Hitlers belief partook of all 3. He literally believed in some primal, dark force - lets call that Oden, after the Norse god - that he associated with the power of will - abusing Nietzsches ubermench concept.

But man, was Hitler and his cronies ever stupid. What else could they expect? You can't impose your will on people without reaching an end. Your will isn't infinite; and your will has to operate against countering wills. Hitlers racism and hatred for anyone other than "Aryans" prevented him from ever building a reliable coalition, and thus, from ever recognizing how unreliable his twisted philosophy was.

I'd like to say, thank heavens that monster is gone, and lets forever be on guard against people like him.

One needs only look at every single supposed guru or spiritual teacher to realize they all follow a formula. One notable attribute is the very excellent beards. The long beard has grown into a symbol of wisdom that rarely a sage is seen without one. But I have a hard time equating the beard with wisdom when it is more a sign of laziness, or better, irony—one can imagine what insights lie hidden in that bristled mess. They are always seated, because perhaps they are too spiritual to stand. But these subtle displays and submissions to imagery associated with wisdom is a sign not of wisdom itself, but that one wants to appear spiritual, one wants to be associated with “spirituality”, and therefore must adopt the markings of those who are also spiritual, so that he may convince himself, and hopefully his followers, that he is too.

Let me suggest a different theory of spirituality.

Spirituality is when you begin to see mind, and physical reality, as having an ontological substance of their own.

In my own case. I can talk about the brain, intersubjective dynamics, and explain how they both regulate mind. But I don't mean to say that the brain or either the dynamics which work between people are "spiritual". Rather, whats spiritual is the subjective meanings that form in the minds of individuals. When I say I feel a spiritual connection with you, I'm trying to emphasize the existence of a common thread, meaning, and subjective quality, that unites both our experiences.

It's hard to say what this is. Spiritual is an entirely right brain concept that the left brain struggles to make sense of. It want's a "representation" - but it can't be adequately represented. Spiritual is an emotional concept. It permeates everything, and exists within everything, and possess a power to unite everything as one.

Spirituality is a veil which defines much less than it hides. It seeks to cover up one’s desires, one’s vanity, one’s sensuality‚ for the sake of one’s desires, one’s vanity, one’s sensuality. A paradox; confusion through obfuscation; security through obscurity

I think you might be getting a tad bit caught up in the philosophy of "what" spirituality means.

In practice, we see spirituality as a good thing. In practice, we don't treat the spirituality of Hitler, which was more of an occultism, as being actually spiritual.

To be spiritual is to recognize baseline concepts like love, kindness, compassion. Of course, one can become all Julius Evola about it and say "war - pain - destruction" are all "spiritual" too. Yes, sure you can say that. But there is something deranged about emphasizing these concepts over those which unite us. Why? It's quite simple. People want to be happy. People want to be at peace and experience a sense of wellbeing.

If your spirituality does not embrace these concepts, does not elevate these concepts, as they deserve to be, than you are deranged, your morality is deranged, your sense of reality is deranged. This type of spirituality often leads to collective insanity - Hitler, Stalin, and Mao, are all perfect examples of how each took their spirituality so seriously that they dissociated from the real trauma they were causing.

reply to post by Aphorism

Or the evil route? No spirituality at all? Is that perhaps more spiritual?

And thats a deranged thing to even ask.

I, personally, as a psychologist, would wonder to myself: why am I asking this?

Lets put things into focus. What kind of world would emerge from the idea that no spirituality would be more spiritual? What you even call "the evil route". Its a bit of an insane, radical, unstable thing to ask.

You may gravitate to such thoughts thinking you're being really "profound", but my friend, spirituality is simple. Whether our concepts are "representations" or 'costumes" as you put it, doesn't change the simple facts that spirituality brings to our awareness. It is good to be good. It is important to be mindful. And it is wise to seek the happiness and wellbeing of all sentient creatures.

I'd also like to say, I'm disturbed by threads like this. You disturb me Aphorism.

Let me tell you what I "feel" about your personality.

Have you suffered much in your life? If no, that explains much. If yes, how have you understood that suffering?

In a world where you don't care about me, because Hitlerian "spirituality" emphasizes all those inane things found in the philosophy of the thule society, a combination of theosophy, wagnerian spirituality and germanic mysticism, in which the individual becomes elevated to "god" status - and the abject concerns of Nietzsche - a man who well deserved to lose his mind, and paradoxically, be taken care of his sister (even though by his standard, he deserved death; how mysterious the world is) I am afraid.

It is such an easy thing to understand goodness, but there always seems to be these hell-raisers, these egoistically charged, isolationist types, who don't feel any organic connection with other human beings.

Take this fact, and digest it.

We have a mind, we have a brain and we have interpersonal relationships. The mind is regulated by the brains autonomic and limbic processes. The mind is also regulated by its interpersonal relationships. The mind is thus embodied, and relational. Do you dispute this? Well. You shouldn't. Its been established by neuroscience.

What's funny, really funny, is, if I had a record of your personal history, particularly of the first 2 years of your life, I could explain why you have this melancholy focus on whatever this thread is trying to create awareness (it appears to me like your supporting Hitlers spirituality, and deriding conventional spirituality).

What kind of relationship did you have with your mama? In the first two years of life, the brain completes 5/6 of it's growth. During this time period, the "biosocial organ" i.e. the brain, undergoes enormous plastic development which receives the majority of it's input from its primary caregiver. What was the nature of your attachment?

If your attachment was not very good; if you grew up surrounded by a lot of violence and aggression, it's not much of a surprise that your brain networks - particular your subcortical networks - bias your attention towards these sorts of morbid subjects.

You know who suffered intense attachment trauma? You guessed it: Herr Adolph Hitler.

reply to post by Astrocyte


You've done all you can to paint me as Evil—someone you've never met in your life—comparing me to Hitler, implying psychological breaks from reality, who is isolated, feels no organic connection etc. etc. etc. I often wonder why someone would fantasize to this extent that they would seek to slander someone they've never met, all to defend their precious words and ideas, their "spirituality". You've constructed an enemy, a bogey man out of your conjecture. As we know, Hitler did the same. I wonder what a psychologist would say about this?

I think the point of your posts was to prove that you're a psychologist—there wasn't a sentence that went by without an attempt to affirm your desired vocation with jargon. To some, that might elevate you to an authority of some sort; although it is my opinion that such a desire to present oneself as an authority on this subject is laughable and particularly slimy. However, it is still nonetheless a matter of opinions—nothing has changed this fact—and you have a right to them. Of course, your assessments and "feelings" towards who I am are works of complete fiction, but I can see how going on the offensive is a good defence when someone is putting your most precious ideals in a bad light. You evoke the pathos. Readers are easily swayed by such rhetoric.

The most interesting thing is how you say spiritual is difficult to define being that it is a "right-brained concept", but then continue on in the very next sentence and following paragraphs to educate me on what spirituality is—or at least what it should be according to Astrocyte—and that I am deranged, having lost touch with reality if I don't agree with your opinion. This is a fine example of the idealistic tendency, one that I tried to show Hitler was particularly guilty of.

But where is the love, compassion and caring within this action? How is this elevating these concepts? How is calling me deranged an example of love, compassion and caring? That's correct; it isn't. And this is how the idealistic man defends his ideals, his spirituality—by contradicting his spirituality on the way to see it realized.

reply to post by Aphorism

You've done all you can to paint me as Evil—someone you've never met in your life—comparing me to Hitler, implying psychological breaks from reality, who is isolated, feels no organic connection etc. etc. etc. I often wonder why someone would fantasize to this extent that they would seek to slander someone they've never met, all to defend their precious words and ideas, their "spirituality". You've constructed an enemy, a bogey man out of your conjecture. As we know, Hitler did the same. I wonder what a psychologist would say about this?

So whats the purpose of this thread then? What are you trying to accomplish? What are you trying to increase awareness of?

Like I said, I am "basing" this on the simple fact that you desired to write up a thread like this, desired to question the value of conventional spirituality, decided to deride and see in mostly negative terms the congregation of individuals at churches, mosques, temples. Why?

Maybe you're not used to someone who doesn't bother to address your philosophical inquiries, and wants you to get to the point. What are you trying to do by writing up this thread?

As a research psychologist and psychotherapist, I'm just curious. You know why Hitlerwas such a whackjob? Because he and his whackjob yokel friends of his got so lost in philosophy and ideas about art and spirituality, that they broke connection with the real world, with the subjective lives of other individuals, with the reality of suffering, trauma, pain; of the basic human need and desire for peace, happiness and well-being.

think the point of your posts was to prove that you're a psychologist—there wasn't a sentence that went by without an attempt to affirm your desired vocation with jargon

Ah yes. You got me! This is one big ploy, self deception, to show off my intellectual abilities and knowledge.

Why, again, do you seek to cast things in such a destructive, and ultimately useless way.

Let me offer you an alternative explanation. I suffered a major trauma in my early adolescence. My entire life, my entire journey, has brought me to a very deep awareness and understanding of how important being embodied is - being aware of your somatomotor processing (and the myriad cognitive/emotional interactions which occur between the body and mind) and how basically dependent we all are on each for support and self regulation.

This is why I have written what I did. The language I use, the concepts I make reference to, all extend from this basic spiritual awareness to inculcate integration in the body, and between individuals.

The most interesting thing is how you say spiritual is difficult to define being that it is a "right-brained concept", but then continue on in the very next sentence and following paragraphs to educate me on what spirituality is—or at least what it should be according to Astrocyte—and that I am deranged, having lost touch with reality if I don't agree with your opinion.

It is both difficult to define, and yet the majority of us - those of us not cognitively damaged, and unaware of our cognitive distortions - come to the simple understanding that being spiritual entails some sort left brain knowledge: kindness, compassion, goodness, patience, mindfulness - these are traits that make one wise.

You may not like this. Again, I do not know what happened in your childhood to make you so bloody arrogant and disengaged from the human community - because, hello: if you don't feel the need to emphasize the above integrative traits, you do not feel "a part" of the human community, at least not to the point to let your actions, thoughts, and feelings be guided by that integrative awareness.

But where is the love, compassion and caring within this action? How is this elevating these concepts? How is calling me deranged an example of love, compassion and caring? That's correct; it isn't. And this is how the idealistic man defends his ideals, his spirituality—by contradicting his spirituality on the way to see it realized.

Who cares if theres contradition, here? Whats the alternative? I want people to be happy, thrive, and experience wellbeing, ASWELL as whatever darkness you seem to be promoting?

No. I'll act rationally thank you very much. I'll embrace that which promotes integration between mind/body, and between individuals within the human collective. If it's a "contradiction" to you, and a "sign of hypocricy", again, it's because your brain isn't working as effectively as it should be.

reply to post by Astrocyte


This will be my final comment in this thread: following this post, I will delete myATS cookie that links me to it.
Your philosophy is too unimportant and inconsequential for me to put too much energy in rebutting. I will say this though:

I was reading a book the other day on the sociology of sociopathy. Basically, how do sociopaths operate within society, and how do people see them?

In this thread, you've implied something through out, but haven't had the balls to just say it. I think you came real close with your closing line:

Or the evil route? No spirituality at all? Is that perhaps more spiritual?

But, knowing how incredibly anti-social that statement is, you wisely left it at that. But I suspect that might be your own philosophical outlook since this entire thread basically argued towards this direction.

My spirituality may be "integrative", but it is not obsequious. Rather, it can be quite aggressive against assholes (not saying you're an asshole, only that this subject matter you've been discussing, and what I think your own position might be, would allow you to be an asshole) . Against people who are unfair, bullies, in short, against people who don't seek the welfare of other people. Such people need to be aggressed against, as history - Hitler - has quite amply shown us.

Anywho. I think you've been so allusive, walking around what you would just like to say, because it would be shameful to just outright say it. Charles1952, as is his usual style, I believe misunderstood what you meant with this thread. You aren't being a public servant by "raising awareness". Rather, you're being a snake, and like all snakes, you need to hide in the grass so as not to be seen. But a perceptive person can see the grass moving. And if he understands the spirituality your talking about, he can well figure out that there is a snake in the grass.

A snake out in the open is bound to get a pitchfork in it's back. People don't like them, and for good reason.

I want to live in a world where people care about each others well being. Where if someone gets sick, whether physically or mentally, people will be there to support them and stand by them in their moment of need.

reply to post by Astrocyte

I think these posts drive the OP's point home.

Those ranting against just missed it because they are busy trying to distance their "spirituality" from Hitler's.

reply to post by Astrocyte


I am a real person like anyone else, yet you would see me dehumanized, made out to be a “snake” incapable of social function, disengaged from the world, irrational, perverted in life and spirituality, a sociopath who spreads darkness, so that you may defend...what? I still haven’t figured it out. For “spirituality”? For your opinions? For your desire to see happiness in the world?

I am real. I have value. I help people. I give people happiness. I give people comfort. I write. I love. I have fun. Just like you. These are all actions of which your “spirituality”, your “peace”, your “well-being” are entirely incapable of. “Peace” has never lent a hand to someone in need. “Happiness” has never put food in a person’s mouth. “Spirituality” has never raised a loving child. And you would see me fall before them—to destroy a real person before your ideology? That is the point of this thread.

It’s time to start actually practicing compassion, actually helping our fellow man, actually being peaceful, actually being loving, instead of promising it, thinking about it, praying to it; and this involves little to no thought towards spiritual matters, which amounts to an over-infatuation with the immaterial over the material, and hopes and desires over what actually occurs. I would destroy the immaterial six million times before I would see one material being fall.

Because what has the immaterial done for us?

Farewell

reply to post by Aphorism


Wow, you really do sound like an extremist.

I don't have the time or energy to argue back and forth with you as it would be pointless, but I will tell you what my first impression of you was: a militant materialist looking for trouble.

You seem to be stuck in a false dichotomy, things are not all black or white even though people love to put up opposites.

Yes, spirituality can be a costume, there are cult leaders, fake gurus, people wearing spirituality as a costume, an image, but there are also genuinely warm and loving people living up to their code of spirituality, or at the very least trying. Many spiritual paths have wise teachings, and I do believe they have a somewhat positive influence on society.
Take meditation for example, different types of meditation has existed probably since the dawn of man, and meditation do have verifiable effects on the brain and the mind including increased compassion, science has shown this, and esoteric paths the whole world over have known this for thousands and thousands of years.

Aphorism
Because what has the immaterial done for us?

That is the point - the materialist is all about 'what's in it for me'.

reply to post by TheLaughingGod

Wow, you really do sound like an extremist.

I don't have the time or energy to argue back and forth with you as it would be pointless, but I will tell you what my first impression of you was: a militant materialist looking for trouble.

You seem to be stuck in a false dichotomy, things are not all black or white even though people love to put up opposites.

Yes, spirituality can be a costume, there are cult leaders, fake gurus, people wearing spirituality as a costume, an image, but there are also genuinely warm and loving people living up to their code of spirituality, or at the very least trying. Many spiritual paths have wise teachings, and I do believe they have a somewhat positive influence on society.
Take meditation for example, different types of meditation has existed probably since the dawn of man, and meditation do have verifiable effects on the brain and the mind including increased compassion, science has shown this, and esoteric paths the whole world over have known this for thousands and thousands of years.

Well we don't have to argue at all. We can talk about it. But it seems to be your intent to label me and walk away, just like everyone else putting their spirituality before others. I haven't expected anything else. If only they practiced what they preached, the world would probably be a better place.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

That is the point - the materialist is all about 'what's in it for me'.

The immaterialist speaks. What was once nothing shows itself as something as soon as it wants something. A materialist in a spiritual disguise.

reply to post by Aphorism

Aphorism
If all we know about reality is the impulses of our senses—according to what idealism proposes—then it must be that it is our senses doing the interpreting, and all holograms, mathematics, "knowledge", exist purely within our senses and mind. Therefor, what is outside of sense is chaos

Is there an 'outside'?

In philosophy, idealism is the group of philosophies which assert that reality, or reality as we can know it, is fundamentally mental, mentally constructed, or otherwise immaterial.

en.wikipedia.org...
Is reality 'immaterial'?
Can it ever be proved that you are not just dreaming?

Aphorism
What was once nothing shows itself as something as soon as it wants something.

What could nothing (the non conceptual) want?
No thing is everything!!

When one is lost in concepts (words and ideas) then one will always be wanting more than there is - unfulfilled one seeks that which will make it feel better - it seeks elsewhere - it thinks fulfilment is hidden in things (concepts).
It is only when the non conceptual is found that everything is found to be here filling the hole.

Aphorism
The immaterialist speaks.

Speech is immaterial.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

Can it ever be proved that you are not just dreaming?

Can you prove that you are not awake? These questions help no one.

What could nothing (the non conceptual) want?
No thing is everything!!

It wants to wear a costume and it fights to do so. Even to this moment.

Speech is immaterial.

This might be the strangest thing I've ever read.

reply to post by Aphorism

What is speech made of?
What is hearing made of?