Dangerous Philosophy: The Illusion of Free Will

reply to post by Redboxin


Because you aren't dismissing free will.
Free will still exists but not in the context in time of which the choice was made.

You are still you, you still make your choices.
The choice is yours to make.

No one else but you is making the choice.

So you are still accountable for your choice as it has been determined in the fifth dimension.
And thus, the effect of that choice has been calculated and you follow the flow of time along this path.

Just because you made the choice already, doesn't mean it wasn't your choice to begin with even though you haven't made the choice yet.

adjensen
reply to post by Wang Tang

 

Premise 1) In order for humans to possess free will, there can only be a single future.

I'm not sure why you are coming to this conclusion, as there is no inherent connection between those two concepts (if, for example, Many Worlds was valid, the act of making a free willed choice would be the thing that determined which of the two possible universes you would continue in.)

The bigger problem, though, is that there is no evidence for the Many Worlds theory, which competes with the Copenhagen Interpretation for an explanation as to why things work differently on a quantum level, but I think that the real issue is that we don't sufficiently understand the quantum world to the point where we can't dismiss quantum phenomenon as issues of observation or comprehension. Things get spooky at that level, but they may just be spooky because we lack the technology to make accurate observations of what's really going on.

Thank you, you bring up some good points.

Regarding your first point, I made a note after my argument where I said "single future" does not eliminate the possibility of there being parallel universes, it simply means there is one "actual" future that is more "actual" than the other futures. This interpretation does leave room for free will. However, Many Worlds Theory does not leave room for this interpretation as having certain futures that are more "actual" than others would cause waveform collapses.

Your second point regarding the Copenhagen Interpretation is a very good objection as theoretical physicists are split between the Many Worlds Interpretation and the Copenhagen Interpretation, with the Copenhagen side forming a slight majority. As you can see I side with the Many Worlds Interpretation because it follows from Schrodinger's Equation without the arbitrary phenomenon of "wavefunction collapse" that Bohr attributed to it due to our inability to measure the exact location of particles.

reply to post by Wang Tang


Because humans are so social, and so impressionable
by other's memes, we are functionally, in many ways,
colony creatures. Our unconscious minds are programmed
for the most part, by ancient society through current
society, family, friends and co-workers.

Even if we somehow claim a bit of personal space for
ourselves in our own minds; even if we rebel hard to
rise above our programming, we are so branded by
this programming, because it paints the canvas upon
which we rebel.

Without even restoring to metaphysics, it is easily
demonstrable that we have little free will.

Thoughts and desires flow from we know not where..
from unconscious mind to conscious mind. For all
we know, all our thoughts are scripted. The barrier
between unconscious and conscious is near absolute;
even someone highly trained in accessing nontraditional
states of mind can access but a smidgeon more.

We are colony creatures and life is a collaborative
effort. It's absurd to ponder free will except in the
most limited case, against this overpowering backdrop.

KPB

reply to post by KellyPrettyBear


Thank you for your thoughtful response I can tell you have thought about this thoroughly. Do you think it is dangerous that the Western world is largely based on the assumption of Free Will when it seems we have so little or none at all? Because it seems to me there are practical benefits to a system based on the illusion of free will but I have not quite thought through the negative implications of a system based on this illusion.

reply to post by Wang Tang


From my own knowledge I actually think it is exactly the opposite. It is instead dangerous philosophy to think free will is an illusion. We all have the choice to do the right or wrong, virtues or sins, die or live, etc.

Determinism, in my honest opinion, which I was an adherer a couple of years ago, made me think my life was all pre-determined and because of this I always tried to find it's meaning which lead me into the occult which in return only brang me some problems, I won't delve into this again I swear.

Watch out for what you think because this kind of thought could really screw the life of many because of how the human mind/brain really works, dangerous stuff indeed to think as you just did.



Thruthseek3r

reply to post by thruthseek3r


Ah yes this is valuable insight that you just presented because you know firsthand how dangerous this philosophy can truly be. What worries me is that it is the danger of believing in the illusion of free will, and not the truth of it, that seems to convince people to take the side of free will. This brings up the question: How valuable is the truth if it is more destructive than a lie? While this question applies to the problem of free will, it is a question that also applies in many other aspects of our lives that I think most people never come close to resolving.

Wang Tang
reply to post by KellyPrettyBear

 

Thank you for your thoughtful response I can tell you have thought about this thoroughly. Do you think it is dangerous that the Western world is largely based on the assumption of Free Will when it seems we have so little or none at all? Because it seems to me there are practical benefits to a system based on the illusion of free will but I have not quite thought through the negative implications of a system based on this illusion.

People do not like seeing they are caged even if they are. Humanity is suffering from Stockholms syndrome and most do not see it.

Watch out for what you think because this kind of thought could really screw the life of many because of how the human mind/brain really works, dangerous stuff indeed to think as you just did.

Just because things are predetermined do not mean the individual should not act as best as it can. Since the proof of what you have evolved to is how you act under pressure and Earth is probably as much pressure you will ever feel if you have higher ideals and a high sense of right and wrong.

Free will is in fact the nastiest thing ever created since it is letting things that should not be allowed to occur just because souls need to be tested. The destruction a ego insane soul can create is remarkable. But that show how little they have evolved.

reply to post by Wang Tang


I have a problem with your statement that says that freewill doesn't exist when multiple futures are possible.

If I have many futures to choose from, aren't I free to choose many different outcomes to a situation?

I don't understand what you mean.

reply to post by LittleByLittle

People do not like seeing they are caged even if they are. Humanity is suffering from Stockholms syndrome and most do not see it.

Correct.

A fascinating topic that encourages one to think outside the boundaries of conventional wisdom. I am still very much undecided on whether Free will is an illusion or not. There appears to be compelling reasonable information for each argument and I simply cannot conclude which is more likely to be correct.

I would have to agree with the previous poster whom suggested that seeing Free Will as an Illusion is the more "dangerous" philosophy as it encourages you to take less responsibility for your actions and makes your life appear more meaningless.

Nevertheless, I cannot shake off this strong persistent feeling that I know how this all plays out and I agreed to this before incarnating into this human vessel. Maybe this fits in more with what member Sovaka was saying before.

reply to post by Dark Ghost


A person without little access to their unconscious is a pure prisoner.
A person with some sort of access to their unconscious feels like
they are consenting to life and thus feel they have actual free will.

But life is group effort; and the more you realize that, the more
actual free will you have. The more you think you are a solitary
actor, the more illusion of free will; but the less actual.

KPB

reply to post by bitsforbytes


Not only are all futures possible, all futures actually happen. You are not choosing a future because you go through all of your possible futures. There is no you that is more actual than any other; the only reason you are under the impression that this is the actual you is because you are currently experiencing it. However, every other you in all of the other parallel universes also experience this phenomenon of feeling like the actual you.

So what about the other universes?

Why should I care about them?


I am not trolling, I am genuinely asking. Only questions will bring us to the truth.

Dark Ghost
A fascinating topic that encourages one to think outside the boundaries of conventional wisdom. I am still very much undecided on whether Free will is an illusion or not. There appears to be compelling reasonable information for each argument and I simply cannot conclude which is more likely to be correct.

I would have to agree with the previous poster whom suggested that seeing Free Will as an Illusion is the more "dangerous" philosophy as it encourages you to take less responsibility for your actions and makes your life appear more meaningless.

Nevertheless, I cannot shake off this strong persistent feeling that I know how this all plays out and I agreed to this before incarnating into this human vessel. Maybe this fits in more with what member Sovaka was saying before.

I do not know how far the predetermined my life is or other lives are. It does not have to be 100% predetermined vs free will. There might be little things that are allowed to deviate that are manipulated so that they do not interfere with the plan.

reply to post by Wang Tang


If free will is mostly an illusion, then it doesn't matter whether
people believe in free will or not.

If free will is not an illusion, but people's life circumstances
are so constrained that they have little effective free will
then it doesn't matter whether they believe in free will
or not.

The only people who have any significant free will, are those
who realize how limited free will really is; they at least can
make the most of what is possible.

I mean if all possiblities are all happening at once and I am "trapped" in this one then I am free to do as I wish in this one because in my world I can imagine just about anything I want. Like an infinite amount of possibilities happening at once.

Where is the illusion? In my shoes I can almost do as I want. Where is it that freewill is not happening?

bitsforbytes
So what about the other universes?

Why should I care about them?

edit on 4-12-2013 by bitsforbytes because: (no reason given)

I just threw a pen on my sleeping wife, that is not freewill?

Nothing pops out of the unconscious into the conscious until
it meets one of three criteria:

1) it is a fight or flight type instinctual need.
2) it has 'rolled around in the unconscious and been thoroughly processed
based upon accumulated past events, and thus leading to an action.
3) the 'x' factor; fate / luck / other influences.

You wouldn't throw a pen at your wife, unless 1 or more of those 3 had
already happened and been processed in your unconscious mind, probably
for a while.

Our conscious personalities function more as social modules; they function
to record who we think that we are and who others think that we are,
then we take social actions as necessary. The conscious mind is really
the 'social module'. Much of the rest of so-called 'human consciousness'
is in fact unconscious processing.

These things should be obvious to school children, if humans were free.

KPB

reply to post by KellyPrettyBear


So you have summed up all of my life decisions based on three criteria which one is pretty vague "the X factor".

So I guess programming an artificial intelligence as smart as humans is not that hard after all.

You do understand that we have emotions too. Life is not just a big rational decision making fest. Someday you love eggs the next year you can " I am sick of eggs man!". Why do we have tastes? Why do I love a certain color ? Music can make me act violent like it can make me cry.

I don't understand your definition of freewill.

Wang Tang
reply to post by bitsforbytes

 

Not only are all futures possible, all futures actually happen. You are not choosing a future because you go through all of your possible futures. There is no you that is more actual than any other; the only reason you are under the impression that this is the actual you is because you are currently experiencing it. However, every other you in all of the other parallel universes also experience this phenomenon of feeling like the actual you.

But the person who wear you name in the so called other reality is not you (if there is other realities and I am very skeptical to that idea except as a though experiment). Name and body is not you. You are the exact single unique consciousness that has had your experience. Once you deviate in one single action the deviation increases if not there is a process to counter the deviation.

I can even think of ways to in a single time reality make it seem to the players of that reality that they even can move between realities without there being several realities. If you control all data in the mind of the player by the input you can make them believe anything.

Some people say that reality have shifted for them and they are in another version of earth history. Only shift the memory and the input to make them have a this has changed part and they will believe it happened even if it did not. There is one very good reason for me that not believe in this shifts and that is because why would they choose to shift to this version of earth. If you shift, you shift into somewhere that is nice, not the work in progress.

reply to post by bitsforbytes


Yah, emotions fall under instinctive needs, #1.

The reason you don't understand my definition of
free will is that we nearly have none.

Even when we think that we are acting due to
a logical reason, something like 90% of that
logical reason is just 'cover' on top of the
real processing that was done unconsciously.

#3 is hard to define.. that's where you can play
with quantum stuff.. and anachronistic entities
who really control the world and we don't know
it and those kind of theories.

But really #3 is more of a smoke screen; those
metaphysical meanderings in the #3 category
serve little purpose, as we are enslaved before
those even come into effect.

But don't fret about it.. if circumstances come
to pass where you come to understand more
about free will and can live with more free will,
then you will have that option. If they don't,
then you won't have that option.

KPB