Liminality and Mysticism / Spirituality / Religion: Part Two

Ok, here is where I discuss mysticism a bit. Now contrary to
what some might think, I'm not going to put mysticism up
on a pedestal either, nor shamanism which I haven't even
mentioned. Shamanism tends to be more 'primitive' which
in this case is good.. (less corruption and nonsense), but
it's really just a form of spirituality/religion with some
liminality thrown in.

Now in it's most simple form, mysticism is the honing of
the intellect, both rational and not-rational and in
particular the intuition, in an effort to transform oneself
into an 'exotic truth finding machine'. Well at least that's
how I take it. I know that there are spiritual and religious
corruptions in all 'mystical systems'.

Which leads me to an important topic: beginning 'mystics'
are generally indistinguishable from spiritual and religious
people.. they have all these concepts floating around their
minds which govern their behavior. These concepts are
corruptions created by other minds.. some fairly useful
and some harmful.

Now an 'intermediate mystic' starts to hone their body
and mind by means of various techniques such as
meditation, yoga asana, and various 'spiritual practices'.
Now many or all of these practices are 'corrupted' with
all these concepts that aren't true.. but really that
doesn't matter at this stage.. if a person 'gets better'
by jumping up and down on his or her left foot and
screaming rutabagas! then who cares? At least it
works. Really typical of this stage are all these silly
concepts involving 'chakras' (and people don't even
use 'chakras' the way they were originally designed
to be used in the East), and especially 'energy'. All
this fanciful talk about 'energy'.

Well an intermediate mystic does start to FEEL
something.. something powerful.. and at some
point they can't take the forever 'teasing' of the
Divine.. always so close.. but always infinitely
far away. They've read all the spiritual books
and tried all the spiritual theories.. and they
are no closer than the day they started really..
their life is still an unstable house of cards..
They get positively vicious whenever some
wise-ass trickster say, comes along and tells
them they are full of crap. That is the tricksters
job you know.. one of their jobs.

I've met very few intermediate mystics who
leave behind this BS stage and truly 'go for it'.
Those few I've seen who 'go for it' have nearly
universally been abused as children, or had such
a tough life, that their 'internal boundaries' are
already quite damaged. In fact the final barrier
which keeps an intermediate mystic from a state
of true 'grace' (perpetual liminality) is the clinging
to human form; whether it be physical form, or
the fanciful stories bout soul and spirit. It takes
a supreme act of will to shred all the concepts
that have originated on other people's minds
that you have sucked up and bolted into place.

An 'advanced' (no connotation of superior or holy
or enlightened or any nonsense like that) mystic
is a person who has abandoned all human form,
all reliance upon what people think about them;
or what role they might have in society.

An 'advanced' mystic is someone who doesn't need
concepts to feel whole; doesn't care about other
people's memes; who doesn't give a rats ass about
holy books and spiritual books and gimmicks. This
is because they are whole.. without needing even
the concept of being alive or dead; spiritual or
physical. They come to live at the crossroads of
science and the so-called supernatural.

When no concepts hold you prisoner; when you
don't need concepts to be happy or creative or
satisfied; when you don't need concepts to
find meaning in life or death or whatever.. then
you are FREE. There is no house of cards you need
to maintain. There is nothing to maintain at all.
This freedom from nonsense means you have
access to your mind in new ways; you have
tons of creative energy.. you can take in any
concept you want and turn it on it's head and
play with it.. you can mold together hundreds
of concepts from all fields of human thought..
and do whatever you want with it.. because
none of it IS YOU or NEEDS to be YOU.

So what IS such a mystic. Well in some ways
they don't know either. And they don't want
or need to know. They simply ARE. There is
nothing to become. There is no 'emptiness'
to attain or 'maintain'. None of that silly
emptiness stuff. There is no boundary
between emptiness and fullness.. between
aloneness and total compassion..

This then, is the gift of the path of the seeker.

Now are there 'supernatural' things which are
seen and done? Well that's not important. For
a liminal mystic, all thoughts and forms and
beings are transitory. Sometimes a liminal
mystic will do something to ease suffering
if they can; or take up some cause. But they
don't need to do so. But most will.. its fun.

This doesn't mean that they are 'enlightened'
or necessarily even wise or accomplished.
But freedom is a mighty gift and enables many
possibilities if one make the effort.

Well that's what I wanted to communicate about;
the difference between liminality and all the
other paths which may lead to liminatlity, but are
often painful exercises in futility.

My 2 cents.

KPB

reply to post by KellyPrettyBear

Well thanks for that, it really seemed to give the mystic a great or refined description. I feel that is an important message, which a lot of humanity may miss if we don't take a finer look at where their path leads. True bliss could go missing.

reply to post by KellyPrettyBear


Hmmm,

That sounds like 'me' a 'Truth finding Machine'... ha ha !!

It also sounds like Google to be fair but I like how you roll....

Overall I agree with these Hermetic principles you put forward....

But I do recognise them as Hermetic principles..however...

After reading some Liminal writings, it does remind me of Hermes Trismegistus a lot....

reply to post by snoopy11


Well.... uh.. thanks for the reply I guess. People
do tend to see themselves in others.. do tend
to find justification for their path in others
writings, whether that was intended or not.

The truth is, that writings about liminalty are
not very actionable.. as the human habit is
to pile concept upon concept upon concept
and then to worship that concept and to obey
that concept; then to complain about being
a prisoner of that concept.

Its an AWFULLY nasty loop that humanity has
nailed and glued and duct-taped itself into.

KPB

I think I get it…maybe, sort of…

So, we can 'have our concepts, we're just not supposed to 'attach' to them?

KellyPrettyBear
reply to post by snoopy11

 

The truth is, that writings about liminalty are
not very actionable.. as the human habit is
to pile concept upon concept upon concept
and then to worship that concept and to obey
that concept; then to complain about being
a prisoner of that concept.

Its an AWFULLY nasty loop that humanity has
nailed and glued and duct-taped itself into.

KPB

You seem very down on humanity yet we are only children in a childish civilisation that might not even last that long, not long enough to reach the stars and the heights of our imaginations.

I dont complain.
I dont worship.
I obey no concept.

Not all humanity is trapped like that, I will wait for you in the stars when your technology finally catches up.

lostgirl
I think I get it…maybe, sort of…

So, we can 'have our concepts, we're just not supposed to 'attach' to them?

That's pretty much it. But let me put it this way:

If you seek to define yourself in an 'ultimate sense' you make
yourself into a monster.

If you seek to define 'god' in an 'ultimate sense' you make
yourself into a monster.

Anything else you want to do with concepts is not dangerous;
it's when you mess with the 'self-making circuits' to define
'yourself' or 'god' that's when you get in trouble.

If you don't play the game which can't be won (permanently
and in 'infinity' defining 'yourself' and 'god') then you gain
the freedom to be immensely creative; immensely free.

KPB

reply to post by KellyPrettyBear

Caught in conceptual reality and perhaps its more about saying what you are not and forgetting what you are! I suppose that would mean you would have to discard even the thoughts but not deny them!

ancientthunder
reply to post by KellyPrettyBear

 

Caught in conceptual reality and perhaps its more about saying what you are not and forgetting what you are! I suppose that would mean you would have to discard even the thoughts but not deny them!

edit on 30-11-2013 by ancientthunder because: green line jump

We are all 'one' because most of us can process any set
of symbols; the symbols will keep flying by in our
unconscious and conscious minds.. but that doesn't
matter. Once you fully see that 'defining yourself'
or 'defining god' brings nothing but pain and suffering,
the habit to make the fundamental mistake fades away.

Now are we ONE on other levels? Sure seems so. Lots of
evidence for that. But I'm not going to base my self-image
on that.. I'm not going to form a self-image at all..

Now I have formed a self-image based upon being honest
and loving from time to time.. but that fades too.. and
the natural human state is to be honest and loving
without depending upon concepts to prop that up.

Have you ever seen two babies or toddlers interact
with each other? They can be of any race.. their
parents of any political or religious backgrounds..
and the babies / toddlers know how to act without
depending on any concepts to guide them.. it's
built in how to be..

Concepts can be really cool and useful... so long
as they are kept OPTIONAL. Once you make even
one necessary ... they all become tyrants!

KPB

KellyPrettyBear
Have you ever seen two babies or toddlers interact
with each other? They can be of any race.. their
parents of any political or religious backgrounds..
and the babies / toddlers know how to act without
depending on any concepts to guide them.. it's
built in how to be..
KPB

Which brings us to a wonderful quote (albeit merely an English translation of one) by Jesus 'presumably of' Nazareth:

"Unless you are as one of these [i.e. little children], you cannot enter the Kingdom of God."

And I know you know that the phrase, "Kingdom of God" is metaphorical. Even Jesus was referring to our 'inner'/spiritual selves, rather than any particular 'Heaven'…

reply to post by lostgirl


LOl.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

That said, as I've said numerous times, Jesus the Nazarene
never promoted any of the horrible crimes that Christianity
has. So chuck out that corrupted 99% and then you'll be in
fine shape.

KPB

KellyPrettyBear
reply to post by lostgirl

 

LOl.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

That said, as I've said numerous times, Jesus the Nazarene
never promoted any of the horrible crimes that Christianity
has. So chuck out that corrupted 99% and then you'll be in
fine shape.
KPB

Hey, I was not tweaking you…Honestly, I thought it was a lovely affirmation of what you posted!

I most definitely do not buy in to the "concept" of Jesus (don't even like to think of Him 'as' that name) that most so-called 'Christians' have been sucked into….

The 'Jeshua' of Gallilee (sp?) my life experience has introduced me to is a much, much, lovelier (and infinitely more loving) 'person' than most of the world knows….

reply to post by lostgirl


Well using the name Jeshua adds a layer of sophistication
which *absolutely* wipes away all those harmful memes
which have been floating around for all these millennia.
*cough*.

KPB

KellyPrettyBear
reply to post by lostgirl

 

Well using the name Jeshua adds a layer of sophistication
which *absolutely* wipes away all those harmful memes
which have been floating around for all these millennia.
*cough*.
KPB

Well, I had to call him something you'd recognize, how else could you have known who I was referring to?

I mean, come on, I get the whole thing about not 'defining' ourselves or God or anyone, but we do all need 'names' to go by…and if we are speaking about any given 'person', we've got to have a common 'identifier' in order to mutually 'recognize' the person…

Tell ya what, how about I start calling him 'Pardner' (as in, "Howdy Pardner!")…

…but then again if he happens to come up in other threads, you and I are the only ones who will know what I'm talking about, so I'll have to go around qualifying the 'name', i.e. "Oh you know, that guy all the 'Christians' got wrong…"

KPB, maybe you need to consider that - not letting go of 'semantics' can make for as many difficulties as not letting go of concepts…hhmm?

I'll see that *cough* and raise you a double throat clearing! LOL

reply to post by lostgirl


Semantics isn't the point.

Babies crawl around and smile and giggle and play.

I don't seem them calling on a fictional character to maintain
this blessed state.

You see, even IF Jeshua existed at all, and that is highly disputed
by history, we apparently have little or NO accurate words spoken
by him.. and even if we had some semi-accurate words.. so what?
Why do you want to help create this 'thought-form' which people
fight and die over? Do you really believe that does you or anyone
the slightest good?

Any 'goodness' that flows through you, is FROM you.. it's not from
'god' or 'Jesus' or 'angels' or anything like that.. I know you've
said that you have some confidence issues.. well you don't
need to create beings from your imagination in order to be
strong.. *I* believe in you.. or I wouldn't be having this conversation
with you.

That's my observation. That's the observation of a lot of highly
intelligent and loving people; none of whom damn people to
hell for not agreeing with them.

Anyone who believes in hell has ZERO credibility. Any book
which promotes hell (and the Bible barely if at all does)
has ZERO credibility. Now I don't think you believe in
hell.. but I'm mentioning this for others who might read
this response..

As so many people pair up Jeshua/Jesus with HELL. You
think that's crazy don't you? That's beyond crazy.

KPB

reply to post by KellyPrettyBear


and yet you defined yourself quite a bit it that post, interesting.

OceanSpray
reply to post by KellyPrettyBear

 

and yet you defined yourself quite a bit it that post, interesting.

Well to have a conversation I have to say something.
Other than when having a conversation there is no
need to do that. To be more precise, the act of posting
about this subject temporarily creates the thing you
are noting.

Good observation.

KPB

KellyPrettyBear

When no concepts hold you prisoner; when you
don't need concepts to be happy or creative or
satisfied; when you don't need concepts to
find meaning in life or death or whatever.. then
you are FREE. There is no house of cards you need
to maintain. There is nothing to maintain at all.
This freedom from nonsense means you have
access to your mind in new ways; you have
tons of creative energy.. you can take in any
concept you want and turn it on it's head and
play with it.. you can mold together hundreds
of concepts from all fields of human thought..
and do whatever you want with it.. because
none of it IS YOU or NEEDS to be YOU.

KPB

I find this advice to be very powerful.

Thanks!

peace

reply to post by dodol


It boggles my mind that this isn't intuitively obvious to the most casual of observers. I first noticed this 40 years ago.

reply to post by KellyPrettyBear

As so many people pair up Jeshua/Jesus with HELL. You think that's crazy don't you? That's beyond crazy.

What is funny, is we cant really be sure what exists, cause in a way we are all just avatars. Are avatars real?