Christians V Freemasons?

WarminIndy
reply to post by CX

 

My brother is a Freemason and also Celtic Pagan. I am a Christian. We get along well and no arguments between us. Christians are reacting to the mythology surrounding Freemasons, and yet very little of it is true.Freemasons, the first victim of conspiracy theorism....

Free Masons the first victim? funny.

There are many books on Freemason's. Once they receive the 33rd degree they know that all Mason's worship Satan.

Good try.

If Satan's messengers disguise themselves as preachers of righteousness, what do they have to do first? Define righteous behaviour. We know it's armies number as the sands of the seas. How does it raise so many to battle Christ?

"Love is tolerance."
Preached endlessly by the pulpit known as mass media.
The population comes to believe that those who are tolerant of anything and everything are actually the epitome of love, and conversely, those that are intolerant are "haters".

Perception was altered.

In the very same way, an unborn baby went from a life and blessing to a clump of cells, a nuisance, and a burden to be killed on demand. The baby never changed. So what was changed?

Our perception of the baby.

A hypnotist can whisper the words "you will see the audience as naked ", and the volunteer up on stage opens his eyes, and perceives
a fully clothed audience as naked. How?

His perception was altered.


Now look at your post and the characteristicss which you have assigned to both the "Christian" and the "mason". The Christian is slated in your post and the mason glows as "lovely" and "not a bad bone in his body".

Can I ask, upon what basis do you perceive it as such? In other words, who came along and whispered in your mind that is affecting your assessment of each? You certainly have been given a set of criteria which determines how you are perceiving each of them, yes? Who gave you that criteria? You have determined already which is righteous and which is foul and clearly laid it before us. You have clearly concluded that the mason is LOVELY. And therefore, the "Christian" is UNLOVELY.

Who defined for you what constitutes LOVELY and UNLOVELY?

Satan's messengers come as preachers of righteousness. As such, they will define for the masses what constitutes what. In which case, ought you not to be more concerned about getting clear on just how the human mind is so easily led away from truth that they can no longer perceive it even if it bit them on the nose? Do you think that the masses in Noah's day thought that they were continually pursuing wickedness and evil? Of course they didn't. They hadn't a clue. Why not?

Their perception was altered.

Fraudfinder

WarminIndy
reply to post by CX

 

My brother is a Freemason and also Celtic Pagan. I am a Christian. We get along well and no arguments between us. Christians are reacting to the mythology surrounding Freemasons, and yet very little of it is true.Freemasons, the first victim of conspiracy theorism....

Free Masons the first victim?

funny.

There are many books on Freemason's. Once they receive the 33rd degree they know that all Mason's worship Satan.

Good try.

When did you receive your 33rd?

seriously, there are thousands of 33rd degree masons, all of whom had a belief in God, the one and only creator of all, and you expect anyone who is not an idiot, to believe that they all denounced God and did the proverbial 180 when the got their 33rd? I will say this, if you believe that, you deserve to hold the knowledge you think you have. Common sense be damned!

BurbGirl378
Someone really needs to talk to the Staff members that answer the telephones at your Lodges. When I called the telephone number that was given to me and inquired about becoming a member I was told "You can't just 'join' the Masons. You have to be sponsored." To which I replied, "OK, thank you, goodbye," and didn't look back... Until I found ATS, anyway.

You may have caught an uninformed brother, or one who really sucks and explaining things. First and foremost, you have to come to masonry. Once you do that, you do need a sponsor, but you can get one by visiting the lodge and speaking to anyone there. Once you look at who you know, there is a real good chance you already know a mason, but didn't know he was one. If you don't know any, then someone (probably several ) members will speak with you and determine if they will sponsor you. Seriously, as long as you are a normal, non-criminal, non atheist, and a good man, then you fit the criteria.

reply to post by Akragon


Akragon: "A 'Holy God' would not be Wrathful..."

God is who he says he is not what we think he is. A good judge must punish and send criminals to jail. Fallen men hate God because God is good and we're not.

Most men, even the irreligious, claim some degree of love or affection toward God. Nevertheless, the Scriptures testify that fallen man cannot love God. In fact, the Scriptures teach that, prior to conversion, all of Adam's race hates God and lives at war against Him (Rom 1:30; 5:10). This hostility exists because a morally corrupt creature simply cannot tolerate a holy and righteous God or bear to submit to His will.

It is important to note that most who claim a genuine love for God know very little about His attributes and works as Scripture describes them. Therefore, the god they love is nothing more than a figment of their own imagination. They have made a god in their own image, and they love what they have made. As God declares through the psalmist, “You thought that I was altogether like you; but I will rebuke you.” (Psa 50:21).

If most men, even those who consider themselves religious, were to investigate the Scriptures, they would most certainly find a God much different from the god they claim as the object of their affections. If they took at face value the Scripture's teaching on such divine attributes as holiness, justice, sovereignty, and wrath, they would most likely respond in disgust and declare, “My God's not like that!” or, “I could never love a God like that!” Thus, we would quickly see that when fallen men meets the God of the Scriptures, his only reaction is repulsion and rejection. What is the reason for this adverse reaction? Again, it has to do with who man is at the very core of his nature. If man were holy and righteous by nature, then he could easily love a holy and righteous God. However, man is by nature depraved, and therefore he cannot. ~ Paul Washer

That's why Christ is important for He alone can saves you. The Holiness of God points you to Christ and this is why the war is raging against Him (and His saints) and to take your focus off of Him. Deceptions in religions have only one purpose: To blind you from the Gospel that saves (1 Corinthians 15). The first doctrine to be denied is the doctrine of judgment: "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die.' (Genesis 3:4). There's nothing new under the sun. Once this doctrine is removed men is free to do whatever they wish because in their mind there is no eternal consequences.

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." (Heb 9:27)

"But the LORD shall endure for ever:
he hath prepared his throne for judgment.
And he shall judge the world in righteousness,
he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness."
-- Psalms 9:7-8

"isn't that the definition of "organized religion" though? Join a club, go on sunday... listen to the leader of the club tell you stories..."

I have stated that Salvation is a PERSON. It's not about being part of a denomination or a group. You will only understand what coming together on Sunday means once you are born again by RECEIVING Christ. There are a lot of deceptions out there and my hope is to shed some light later on once I can start my own threads. A lot of people on here do not know what true biblical Christianity is and I'm sure there are a lot of them genuinely searching for the right path but are lost in all this confusions. I have been down this path of seeking before and have encountered the true and living God.

"in a sense I suppose... But like you've stated, we can be Born again... and again!"

Born again is a one time event that is not repeated. The first birth is of the flesh and the second is of God.

reply to post by network dude


Are you a Mason?

I am not asking if a family member is a Mason, .........are you?

Mason rituals do NOT speak out the name of their god but only in metaphoric language.

Like I said before...... there are MANY Mason books out for sale from ex-masons who tell their story.

reply to post by Fraudfinder


Yes. I am. I have been for over 7 years.
How long have you been a 33rd?

We refer to God as the Grand Architect of the Universe so nobody has to feel left out.

Ex masons. Usually an ex mason either was kicked out for going against his oath, or they quit because their new CHURCH tells them masonry isn't compatible. So either way, they might have an agenda. Why not get information from current members? The ones with no agenda.

reply to post by VoiceInTheWilderness


AMEN......brother or sister!

It is good to hear a new voice and you are an answer to one of my prayers to God asking that my brothers and sisters come to this website so they may be able to teach, show proper moral teachings and set the example but more importantly your spirit is awake and you know your place and why you are here.

Please continue preaching the Good News. I am here to assistant in any way.

God Bless you and your family.

network dude
reply to post by Fraudfinder

 

Yes. I am. I have been for over 7 years.
How long have you been a 33rd?

We refer to God as the Grand Architect of the Universe so nobody has to feel left out.

Ex masons. Usually an ex mason either was kicked out for going against his oath, or they quit because their new CHURCH tells them masonry isn't compatible. So either way, they might have an agenda. Why not get information from current members? The ones with no agenda.

edit on 26-11-2013 by network dude because: poster edited post

I thought so.

I have to be careful....I think someone likes to report me the SECOND I get off thread but Masons and their teachings by Albert Pike suffice for me.

reply to post by VoiceInTheWilderness

God is who he says he is not what we think he is. A good judge must punish and send criminals to jail. Fallen men hate God because God is good and we're not.

Jail is far different then a lake of fire...

And God didn't write the bible so your argument is irrelevant... in any case the OT God is NOT my God

That's why Christ is important for He alone can saves you. The Holiness of God points you to Christ and this is why the war is raging against Him (and His saints) and to take your focus off of Him. Deceptions in religions have only one purpose: To blind you from the Gospel that saves (1 Corinthians 15).

uh huh...

Notice you posted a verse from Paul... not the gospels?

And Hebrews 9:27 does not disprove reincarnation if that is why you posted it... read the entire chapter. This only shows you do not know what you're talking about

I have stated that Salvation is a PERSON. It's not about being part of a denomination or a group. You will only understand what coming together on Sunday means once you are born again by RECEIVING Christ. There are a lot of deceptions out there and my hope is to shed some light later on once I can start my own threads. A lot of people on here do not know what true biblical Christianity is and I'm sure there are a lot of them genuinely searching for the right path but are lost in all this confusions. I have been down this path of seeking before and have encountered the true and living God.

I'll be sure to look for your threads in the future...

Born again is a one time event that is not repeated. The first birth is of the flesh and the second is of God.

Yes I know what you've been taught... and I know all about your doctrine...

SO what about the third or forth birth... Or the tenth for that matter?

CX
I am most definitely no expert in either Christianity nor Freemasonry, so i thought rather than rant my head off like i feel like doing, i'd ask your opinions.

Now when my Christian family member heard that the others were masons, the atmosphere turned immediately. Absolute hatred for the Freemasons, lots of names for them, not directly towards my other family member, but at the practices of the lodges.

I explained that the Masons i knew, also went to church and worshiped God, but she was unphased. It was "different" than the proper way, and that the Masons had "rituals and temples".

To be honest, i wanted to say, "What...rituals and temples like the Christian church?.....or every other religion out there? Instead i just changed the subject, because there would be no talking to this person. I won't bother wasting my time trying to talk to someone who has a "my way or no way" attitude. I also didn't want to add to the atmosphere with other family members around.

I appreciate that there are a million and one conspiracies surround Freemasonry, but isn't there also about Christianity?

I don't know enough about the subject to know how to respond intelligently, so how exactly does the whole church and Freemasonry thing work? Do/can they co-exist? Ordinarily i'd leave it, but as it most probably rear it's very ugly head again, i thought i'd ask.

They do co-exist; but its a separate HIDDEN order. The Templars (Latin meaning TEMPLE) are the keepers (A MUCH HIGHER ORDER-EVEN MORE SO THAN THE POPE RCC), guardians of the sacred knowledge of mans origins; or truth of Cosmic Order and mans creation which was not of an evolutionary "Darwinistic" vein ape turns into human (laughable). These ideas were esoteric in tradition. "Life manifestd as the being we know as homo sapiens did not originate on this planet, but was implanted here by more advanced spiritual beings who came from elsewhere. Knowledge of man's true origins and the blueprint for his evolutionary destiny was periodically transmitted by these beings to humans who were sufficiently evolved to receive this knowledge (demigods). The latter, generally known in the tradition as "initiates" have kept the knowledge intact by passing it on the worthy successors." Ibid Gaitan Delaforge "The Templar Tradition".

A tradition handed down would be the proper building of temples (and so the Freemason builder becomes integral to the process). These were constructed for the sole purpose to contact the higher angels, gods or divine and were built upon junction or ley lines that transmutted cosmic and telluic currents (like a river of energy tapped into). Your problem is explaining that the Templar Knights (masons known as in this time period) were of The Order Of Melchisedek (Priest/King of Salem) (genesis 14, 18-20) and keep the tradition of human origin sacred, created off planet by others. So I suppose you have the arguement of natural vs supernatural and a belief system to chose from and thus defend. I come from Masonic tradition 33rd degree, and they strenuously believe in the Bible (old testament). The Knights Templar were the guardians of the Gnostic Principles of the Essenes living in Qumran, destroyed in 70AD by the Roman Army. They were the Hebreic sect that left the 'Dead Sea Scrolls' found by a goat herder in 1948. You have no idea what the Templars/Freemasons were tasked with in preserving this tradition of off worlders creating the human.

Fraudfinder
WarminIndy
reply to post by CX

WarminIndy
My brother is a Freemason and also Celtic Pagan. I am a Christian. We get along well and no arguments between us. Christians are reacting to the mythology surrounding Freemasons, and yet very little of it is true.Freemasons, the first victim of conspiracy theorism.

Fraudfinder
Free Masons the first victim?

funny.
There are many books on Freemason's. Once they receive the 33rd degree they know that all Mason's worship Satan.
Good try.

And right back at you Oh knowlegeable one. Its not the books as reference you sort of have to be within the 'cult' and know how to decifer everyones degrees in the dark by simple handshake (gotta be in pitch black dark or it doesnt work). Satanic? by nature or implication; that is just too funny (unless you are accusing Melchizedek (priest of Salem/NEWER known location JERUSELEM) the devil.

Fraudfinder
reply to post by VoiceInTheWilderness

[iFraudfinder
AMEN......brother or sister!

"Sister" would be a Job's Daughter, also very Satanic in reference as you would imply (not sure how that works but you will find a way).

reply to post by Akragon


RE: Fraudfinder
Thank you for the warm welcome brother. I'm male for future reference.

Akragon: "Jail is far different then a lake of fire..."

Authority and submission goes together. Is this not a true axiom? Try and rebel against authority and see what will happen (not recommended). Christians are commanded to respect earthly authorities (Romans 13) because all authorities on earth are from God and it reflects the nature and being of God. All that God created points to himself for the heavens declare the glory of God (Psa 19). Marriage is sacred for it images Christ and the Church this is why a husband is exhorted to love his wife no matter what because it images Christ's love for His church. To distort marriage is to distort the Gospel and the things of God. Physical birth helps us to understand spiritual birth. When a child enters the world people gather around to celebrate/rejoice. When one sinner repents and turns to God (he is born again, second birth) heaven rejoices: "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance." (Luke 15:7) This is why in the New Testament you'll learn a lot about adoption.

The Sun, the Moon and the Stars are all there to point us back to God and with this in mind you can see how easily one can pervert God's creation and worship the creation rather than the Creator. Likewise, God is absolute and therefore submission to God must also be absolute. Herein lies the problem: How can a finite being such as yourself submit to an absolute and Holy God perfectly? This is the key to find our way back to God. Whoever submitted to God absolutely and perfectly must be God himself for only absolute can submit absolutely. Do you know of one name under heaven that have submitted to an absolute God perfectly without sin? Christ Jesus was obedient even unto death.

Authority and Submission points us all back to the Father (Authority) and the Son (Submission). When we submit and serve one another we image Christ. When we rebel against God we image that serpent of old. Just look around, it's everywhere... you can't miss God.

At home: Parents (Authority) --> Child (Submission)
At church: Elders (Authority) --> Saints (Submission)
In Society: Governments (Authority) --> People (Submission)

If you deny Christ then you have this problem to deal with: Authority without Submission.

What do you think will happen when you rebel against God's Holy Law?

"... because as there is an infinite evil in sin, as being committed against a God of infinite majesty and glory, the punishment to which it subjects the sinner must likewise be infinite... But because the sufferings of the ... [human] cannot be infinite in degree or value, they must be infinite in duration." ~ Richard Rawlins

The enemy of your soul don't want you to know the true and living God and Jesus Christ your only hope and Saviour. This is why false Christs and gods have been erected to cause confusion and lead people astray.

"And God didn't write the bible so your argument is irrelevant..."

Who are we to believe: You (with no authority) or Christ Jesus who has all authority both in heaven and on earth (Matt 28:18)? With that kind of authority you don't think He's capable of preserving His words? What is the one name that demons are afraid of and trembles at? The enemy of our souls have two primary targets: 1) Jesus Christ 2) His word. To receive Christ is to receive His word. You can't accept one and reject the other. Christ's resurrection proves His claim and He now has ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY and is seated at the right hand of God.

"Notice you posted a verse from Paul... not the gospels?"

Both the OT and NT points to Christ (and it's too lengthy for me to get into that at this moment). What is the Gospel? His death and resurrection. Did Paul say anything contrary to that?

And about Heb 9:27: I'm not surprised that this verse is being twisted to prove reincarnation. The Bible does not teach reincarnation and I have stated in my earlier post that Scriptures is under Christ's Lordship. God reveals things to his children through his Holy Spirit confirmed by scriptures.

"Yes I know what you've been taught... and I know all about your doctrine..."

It's one thing to know and it's another thing to accept and believe. Many know Christ intellectually but not many have received Him.

reply to post by VoiceInTheWilderness


Sigh

Where to start...

From the top I suppose...

Authority requires submission. Is this not a true axiom?

Yes...

Try and rebel against authority and see what will happen (not recommended). Christians are commanded to respect earthly authorities (Romans 13) because all authorities on earth are from God and it reflects the nature and being of God.

Yet another false truth from Paul... there isn't a single government on earth that is trust worthy... And IF you believe there is... you haven't been paying attention

Physical birth helps us to understand spiritual birth. When a child enters the world people gather around to celebrate/rejoice. When one sinner repents and turns to God (he is born again, second birth) heaven rejoices:

So the muslim that repents is no different then the Christian who repents, or the agnostic... or anyone else for that matter... There is no need to accept a label to do this...

The Sun, the Moon and the Stars are all there to point us back to God and with this in mind you can see how easily one can pervert God's creation and worship the creation rather than the Creator. Likewise, God is absolute and therefore submission to God must also be absolute.

Which I agree with... but the so called "God" of the OT is not the Father of creation... and the proof of this is in the gospels...

Herein lies the problem: How can a finite being such as yourself submit to an absolute and Holy God perfectly? This is the key to find our way back to God.

Just because I disagree with the Christian dogmatic view of the bible does not mean I need to find God... You assume far too much my friend

Authority and Submission points us all back to the Father (Authority) and the Son (Submission). When we submit and serve one another we image Christ. When we rebel against God we image that serpent of old. Just look around, it's everywhere... you can't miss God.

Likewise when you submit to a tyrant... you are also subject to the tyrants commands... The OT promotes hatred and self loathing... and so do many Christian denominaions

At church: Elders (Authority) --> Saints (Submission)

LMAO!! saints?!?!

In Society: Governments (Authority) --> People (Submission)

WRONG!!

Government = agenda which is not in the interest of anyone but themselves... Don't be blind brother...

What do you think will happen when you rebel against God's Holy Law?

Gods HOLY LAW is love... NOT the bible

The enemy of your soul don't want you to know the true and living God and Jesus Christ your only hope and Saviour. This is why false Christs and gods have been erected to cause confusion and lead people astray.

And again you assume that I don't know God or Jesus... assumptions are a waste of time you know

Who are we to believe: You (with no authority) or Christ Jesus who has all authority both in heaven and on earth

Jesus didn't write the book either my friend...

With that kind of authority you don't think He's capable of preserving His words? What is the one name that demons are afraid of and trembles at? The enemy of our souls have two primary targets: 1) Jesus Christ 2) His word. To receive Christ is to receive His word.

And Preaching proves nothing

You can't accept one and reject the other. Christ's resurrection proves His claim and He now has ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY and is seated at the right hand of God.

Except there is absolutely no proof he resurrected in the first place aside from the bible... Which is why people call that a circular argument... the bible is the authority because the bible says so...

Both the OT and NT points to Christ (and it's too lengthy for me to get into that at this moment). What is the Gospel? His death and resurrection. Did Paul say anything contrary to that?

the gospel(s) are four books... and Paul's writing has nothing to do with any of them

And about Heb 9:27: I'm not surprised that this verse is being twisted to prove reincarnation. The Bible does not teach reincarnation and I have stated in my earlier post that Scriptures is under Christ's Lordship. God reveals things to his children through his Holy Spirit confirmed by scriptures.

And again... that is what you've been taught, which is far from the truth... and I didn't say Hebrews 9:27 proves reincarnation... you should probably read peoples writing before you make a reply

It's one thing to know and it's another thing to accept and believe. Many know Christ intellectually but not many have received Him.

Likewise... there are many who read the bible... but few that see the problems with it... at least in your religion

there are also many who love to preach about what they've been taught even on these forums, but are clueless as to what love and respect are...

Look around the forum... you'll see what I mean

reply to post by Akragon


You agree that Authority and Submission goes together. Where do you think that comes from? I'll keep it short this time and save the rest for the future so that it doesn't have to keep going back and forth.

"I didn't say Hebrews 9:27 proves reincarnation"
Thanks for the clarification. What you actually said was that it doesn't disprove reincarnation.

Yet another false truth from Paul... there isn't a single government on earth that is trust worthy... And IF you believe there is... you haven't been paying attention

PAUL: This is another topic and you'll only understand Paul once you know who Christ is from the Bible (I'll do a walkthrough later on God willing), remember that scriptures is under Christ's Lordship.

GOVERNMENT: There is wisdom in submitting and we are not to do so blindly and Bible have examples of this. Our submission is first to God and then to men that we are under. Right now I'm under ATS' authority as I post here and the principle of Authority & Submission is at work. Christians are not supposed to take the mark of the beast so we're not to submit blindly. As you can see, the devil wants to mess with Authority/Submission.

"WRONG!! Government = agenda which is not in the interest of anyone but themselves... Don't be blind brother..."

You miss my point friend. The principle is there (Authority & Submission). This does not mean that the principle is played out perfectly. Corrupt rulers will act corruptly. We are fallen and so the way we do things are not always perfect but the principle is there and that's the point. Those in authority should rule with love but that doesn't always happen in this fallen world.

My point is that all of this Authority/Submission points us all back to the Father (Authority) and the Son (Submission) who rules with perfect love and righteousness.

"So the muslim that repents is no different then the Christian who repents, or the agnostic... or anyone else for that matter... There is no need to accept a label to do this..."

There is a difference: Father (Authority) and Son (Submission). Repentance toward God and faith in his Son. This is why a born again Christian can never be a Mason. Biblical conversion involves the Father and the Son. I'll prove this later on.

"Which I agree with... but the so called "God" of the OT is not the Father of creation... and the proof of this is in the gospels..."

You can't separate the Father and the Son. The two are ONE. I'll prove this later on straight from the Bible.

"the gospel(s) are four books... and Paul's writing has nothing to do with any of them"

There's a bit of confusion in your understanding. The Gospel is a SPECIFIC message and Paul lays out the message in 1 Corinthians 15 which you can check it against:

"Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem." (Luke 24:45-47)

"Gods HOLY LAW is love... NOT the bible"

I don't think you realize what you just said. Love = Submission. "but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father..." (John 14:31)

God is love. Love is Trinitarian in nature. This is why you can't separate the Father and the Son. Because we're fallen we see things a little twisted. We see submission as bad and something to be avoided but from God's perspective submission is love. You can't find a better example than Christ.

"Just because I disagree with the Christian dogmatic view of the bible does not mean I need to find God... You assume far too much my friend."

Wasn't assuming. I said that as a general statement for all of us. There are so many religions and the key to find our way back to God is through the one who came forth from God. This is why Jesus is the only way back and the way back is submission.

"Likewise when you submit to a tyrant... you are also subject to the tyrants commands... The OT promotes hatred and self loathing... and so do many Christian denominations"

Refer back to previous posts. Men by nature hate God because God is good and we're not. This is why I don't bother with posts that attack God the Father because a man that is not born again can't have a proper view/understanding of God.

"And again you assume that I don't know God or Jesus... assumptions are a waste of time you know."

I am in no position to declare who does or who doesn't but scriptures command believers to test the spirits. The bible talks a lot about falsehood and counterfeits. Hopefully you'll understand more of where I'm coming from later on.

Thanks for the discussion friend and you can have the last word.

reply to post by VoiceInTheWilderness


Regardless of whether or not we agree on these issues... I appreciate the manor in which you've replied... This forum needs more people like you... And a star for your time

now where were we...

"I didn't say Hebrews 9:27 proves reincarnation"
Thanks for the clarification. What you actually said was that it doesn't disprove reincarnation.

Correct...

PAUL: This is another topic and you'll only understand Paul once you know who Christ is from the Bible (I'll do a walkthrough later on God willing), remember that scriptures is under Christ's Lordship.

I understand Paul... And I don't like what he has to say...

GOVERNMENT: There is wisdom in submitting and we are not to do so blindly and Bible have examples of this. Our submission is first to God and then to men that we are under. Right now I'm under ATS' authority as I post here and the principle of Authority & Submission is at work. Christians are not supposed to take the mark of the beast so we're not to submit blindly. As you can see, the devil wants to mess with Authority/Submission.

And you don't see the contradiction in this as opposed to what you said previously?

You miss my point friend. The principle is there (Authority & Submission). This does not mean that the principle is played out perfectly. Corrupt rulers will act corruptly. We are fallen and so the way we do things are not always perfect but the principle is there and that's the point. Those in authority should rule with love but that doesn't always happen in this fallen world.

And knowing this... you still state that we should submit to those that are corrupt as opposed to standing up for our right to live freely in what is supposed to be a free world?

We are not "Fallen" this is something you've been taught based on a ancient myth in Genesis...

My point is that all of this Authority/Submission points us all back to the Father (Authority) and the Son (Submission) who rules with perfect love and righteousness.

And unfortunately we as a species are oppressed by the very people who rule us... There is no love in their ways, only lies and deceit

There is a difference: Father (Authority) and Son (Submission). Repentance toward God and faith in his Son. This is why a born again Christian can never be a Mason. Biblical conversion involves the Father and the Son. I'll prove this later on.

As far as I know Freemasonry allowed anyone to be of any Faith... as long as they have some belief in God... So I do believe you are incorrect

You can't separate the Father and the Son. The two are ONE. I'll prove this later on straight from the Bible.

Pointless... I've heard every argument that the OT God is the Father... None of which hold any weight in my eyes

There's a bit of confusion in your understanding. The Gospel is a SPECIFIC message and Paul lays out the message in 1 Corinthians 15

Incorrect... the gospel is the word of Jesus... found in four books within the bible, and Thomas if one knows his word

I don't think you realize what you just said. Love = Submission.

I know exactly what I just said... Love = Selflessness .... Submission to God perhaps... because as its written "God is love"... Submission to a tyrant is blindness...

And we know what happens when the blind follow the blind... don't we

God is love. Love is Trinitarian in nature.

God isn't a trinity... Nor is the word Found in the book... Nor was it taught by any of the apostles... or Paul for that matter... it was something that was fabricated 300+ years after the fact... and don't bother trying to explain it please... I know all the arguments you could possibly put forth... I've heard all of them and have been hearing the same arguments for the past 10 years... ITs completely pointless trying to explain the trinity, dancing through an elaborate explanation that contradicts what Jesus said in the first place

Mark 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

NOT three in one... NOT three equals one... ONE GOD... the Father

Men by nature hate God because God is good and we're not.

Again... Something you've been taught... which is incorrect. How can men hate something they do not know?

By explaining to people that God is wrathful, jealous, envious, prideful and all the other garbage the OT tells you about God... not only does one direct people away from the true God... but it shows the person explaining such things does not know God anyways.... and around we go

Such is the dance which I groove to every time I speak to Christians.... or at least most times.

This is why I don't bother with posts that attack God the Father because a man that is not born again can't have a proper view/understanding of God.

Likewise... a man that has been blinded by the preaching of organized religion usually has little to no understanding of God either... Heres a news flash... God isn't in a book, nor does he dwell in any house made with the hands of men

I am in no position to declare who does or who doesn't but scriptures command believers to test the spirits.

This is true... and you might want to read through the OT a few times... and test that spirit

I promise you he/she/it is not who you think

Thanks for the discussion friend and you can have the last word.

You're quite welcome... shame you have to run... I like you

And try to look past my apparent attitude... I cut straight to the point... sometimes im a bit harsh... but I mean no harm

reply to post by Akragon


Thanks for the friendly discussion. I'm tempted to reply but I must hold back. Have a nice day friend.

Fraudfinder
Masons and their teachings by Albert Pike suffice for me.

Which one's I wonder? The real teachings, or the out of context, chopped up versions your church tells you exist? (just a hint, look up those quotes you think you know, and read the whole page, not just the version you have seen.) Pike was a Christian.

Can't serve 2 masters, that came from Christ himself. My brother Is a freemason, but I still love him and would do just about anything for him (except join his lodge, LOL).