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Right. That makes sense. Aphorism thinks therefore he's not. Next.
In philosophy, idealism is the group of philosophies which assert that reality, or reality as we can know it, is fundamentally mental, mentally constructed, or otherwise immaterial. Epistemologically, idealism manifests as a skepticism about the possibility of knowing any mind-independent thing.
As an ontological doctrine, idealism goes further, asserting that all entities are composed of mind or spirit.[2] Idealism thus rejects physicalist and dualist theories that fail to ascribe priority to the mind.
Idealism
AlienView
All of Existence is Dependent Upon Mind and Without Mind Nothing Exists.
How can we show anything to exist without a mind defining it? Not energy, not matter, but mind is the fundamental principle of all of existence. Can you show an existent or even a non-existent state existing independently of mind?
Aphorism
reply to post by AlienView
How can we show anything to exist without a mind defining it? Not energy, not matter, but mind is the fundamental principle of all of existence. Can you show an existent or even a non-existent state existing independently of mind?
In order for this to be true, one must first explain what mind is and how it exists, because to my eyes there is no such thing. Saying that everything is dependent on what amounts to nothing is illogical. Something is not fundamental if it doesn't exist.
How can we show anything to exist without a mind defining it?
Right. And this mind is not stored in a brain, obviously, or the brain would exist. There are no electrons flowing in neural pathways, because electrons don't exist. The only solution I can see to this is if you define "mind" to be equivalent to "God." In that case, welcome to the world of believers. I now certify you as an official Theist.
All of Existence is Dependent Upon Mind and Without Mind Nothing Exists.
Yep, that's pretty much what a Theist would say, if he was defining "mind" as "God." OK, I understand. You're proving the existence of God, and fooling everyone into thinking you're talking about something else. Good work.
Can you show an existent or even a non-existent state existing independently of mind?
Aphorism
reply to post by The GUT
Right. That makes sense. Aphorism thinks therefore he's not. Next.
Yet you could never produce something called a mind if you searched your whole life. Folk psychology at its finest. Too easy.edit on 23-11-2013 by Aphorism because: (no reason given)
AlienView
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
The problem I have here is trying to define and understand consciousness. Many times I get into debates on the issue of whether AI [artificial intelligence, computers] can become conscious and often the naysayers who say it can not happen can not adequately define consciousness. What is conscious? How conscious? Conscious of what, of who?
You see I'm not sure what consciousness is - are you? 'Mind' on the other hand, which is also open to interpretation, can be viewed as a prime concept - we can not perceive, communicate, or inter-react without mind. And I can not understand how anything can exist without mind.
arpgme
reply to post by AlienView
No. I agree with you completely.
In order to prove anything you must first exist. If it isn't EXPERIENCED (awareness/mind) then there is no way to study it.
By experience, I mean seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling and our 6th sense of Feeling.
Before " I Know" I must first "Be".
One thing, many realities. And it exists whether you are there to witness it or not.
Trying to produce mind as evidence would be like shining a flashlight in a dark room. Shining the flashlight on various things, and saying, "That's the source of this light." That which encompasses all cannot be encompassed. You can't fit the ocean in a cup so to say
Aphorism
reply to post by The GUT
Right. That makes sense. Aphorism thinks therefore he's not. Next.
Yet you could never produce something called a mind if you searched your whole life. Folk psychology at its finest. Too easy.edit on 23-11-2013 by Aphorism because: (no reason given)
AlienView
All of Existence is Dependent Upon Mind and Without Mind Nothing Exists.
Those so called dualist theories wouldn't be there without mind. We created noises into letters into words into theories. Without any of that, their is no duality. Without the 5 senses, whom would experience duality? Without the senses, their wouldn't be anything besides self and the experience of I AM. Almost like deep dreamless sleep
ojdidit
You, my friend, are an Idealist. Congratulations!
In philosophy, idealism is the group of philosophies which assert that reality, or reality as we can know it, is fundamentally mental, mentally constructed, or otherwise immaterial. Epistemologically, idealism manifests as a skepticism about the possibility of knowing any mind-independent thing.
As an ontological doctrine, idealism goes further, asserting that all entities are composed of mind or spirit.[2] Idealism thus rejects physicalist and dualist theories that fail to ascribe priority to the mind.
Idealismedit on 23-11-2013 by ojdidit because: (no reason given)edit on 23-11-2013 by ojdidit because: (no reason given)
Without your mind, what would your experience be? Would their even be a "your"? I think you're dismissing the notion just because of your bias on the word "new age" and anything to do with it. You're not allowing your self to delve into the concept of no concept. Perhaps you're afraid, it is quite frightening at first. It is the true death. To be honest, theirs nothing new about it.
swanne
AlienView
All of Existence is Dependent Upon Mind and Without Mind Nothing Exists.
Oh boy. Not again.
As a guy deeply involved in sciences I have many arguments which falsify this absurd theory. But I'm tired of just posting them over and over. Everyone just wants to believe what they see in New Age channels. I think this time I'll let them believe.
edit on 23-11-2013 by swanne because: (no reason given)
You're skipping a step. Take away my mind, your mind, and all others. Then what experience or duality is their? Just silence but silence doesn't describe it, nothing can. More like infinity. If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is there to hear it, does it make a sound? No, because their is no differentiation between the tree and its surroundings. No differentiation between the noise and background noise, just one wave of existence. If you walked to the tree the next day, and saw it on the ground you will imagine the the sound it made when falling. That imagined sound and the so called real sound are no different. Both received by the mind but generated from different places. If you're in a dream and you don't know it's a dream, it's reality. If in that dream you realize it's a dream, you then become god subject and object. Able to create at will. That is who you are
winofiend
arpgme
reply to post by AlienView
No. I agree with you completely.
In order to prove anything you must first exist. If it isn't EXPERIENCED (awareness/mind) then there is no way to study it.
By experience, I mean seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling and our 6th sense of Feeling.
Before " I Know" I must first "Be".
I disagree with this.
What happens if you read about an experience. You are experience the reading.. but not the event that you are reading about. But do you deny by default that the event took place? Why read about it then.
So events occur without the mind to experience it. But for us to experience it, we require the mind.
Without the mind, the reality does not cease to exist, only our experience of it.
This is one concept I think has been hijacked by people who have no understanding of what it is trying to teach, and it has taken off on it's own.... erroneous is it's use..
Everything you experience is your reality. Everything you experience is perceived by you. Your perception makes it what it is. Good or bad, happy or unhappy, love or jealous. You have that perception. But regardless of how you perceive it, the reality of it still exists without judgement.
One thing can be observed by many, and many different perceptions of the same thing can be taken away from it.
An event may result in one man's good fortune and another man's misfortune. Yet the same event has taken place. Their mind's judgment defines their reality.
You see someone walking up the road towards you. She is your ex lover. Your friend next to you, greets her. She is his new lover. You both see the same person, yet both feel two opposite things.
One thing, many realities. And it exists whether you are there to witness it or not.
AlienView
reply to post by iamea
Yes but 'what if'' is a mental construct, a state of mind - I can not comprehend any state of existence without mind defining it - Mind must exist first - was there ever an existent state without mind? = that woud be impossible and illogical.
iamea
AlienView
reply to post by iamea
Yes but 'what if'' is a mental construct, a state of mind - I can not comprehend any state of existence without mind defining it - Mind must exist first - was there ever an existent state without mind? = that woud be impossible and illogical.
Consciousness can exist without the mind present, really, I woke up from a dream one night, looked at my hands and got the shock of my life, as i said to myself "WTF ARE THEY"