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There is a lot there to agree with. I, also, recognize physics. It is a wonderful way to describe solid objects and their movement according to the Laws of Nature.
My logical argument against Jesus rising from the dead or walking on water is physics. Physics dictates those things to be impossible. If you choose to ignore physics then more power to you, but I choose to recognize them.
3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb
Mark and Luke were not eye-witnesses, so my first paragraph is not wrong.
If someone could have fabricated a fictional biography of a man that was at least 4 times as long as Jesus' biography, what makes you think Jesus' couldn't have been fabricated as well? Even Appolonius' biography is grounded in history as your quote says.
By the way, it would help that you post a link to where you got your quote from, it's a requirement of the T&C of this site. Just a friendly reminder.
3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb
Logic dictates that there was no beginning and there will be no end. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only change forms. The universe is just one enormous ball of energy, so the universe could have never been created nor can it ever be destroyed.
The universe has always existed in one form or another and will continue to always exist in one form or another for eternity. Even your consciousness is energy, meaning you too are infinite and eternal.
3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb
I'd say you are close minded for believing it couldn't have been fabricated.
Greek mythology is pretty damn complex, yet it is total bunk. I don't see why the bible couldn't be put in the same category. Rome did keep up with the moon and stars movements, they could have easily backtracked within their records and found a day that fell on an eclipse.
3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by charles1952
Did Abraham Lincoln's speech have him levitating in the air or shooting fireballs out of his eyes? If not, then you are comparing apples to oranges.
3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb
Argument from incredulity. You can't imagine how 40 different authors could have connections between their books, since you can't imagine that it is impossible without god.
The books have to have been written in a certain order yes? So what makes you think they couldn't have used the earlier books as a reference to make those connections? What makes you think those connections couldn't have been interpolated at a later date?
Also, when you have the reference for these prophecies right at your fingertips, and the money and connections TPTB have, what makes you think they couldn't be self-fulfilling these prophecies? They have a guidebook in the bible, and they are following those guidelines to a tee. Don't agree? Argument from incredulity. See, that can go both ways.
Hebrew English
Adam Man
Seth Appointed
Enosh Mortal
Kenan Sorrow;
Mahalalel The Blessed God
Jared Shall come down
Enoch Teaching
Methuselah His death shall bring
Lamech The Despairing
Noah Rest, or comfort.
That's rather remarkable: Man (is) appointed mortal sorrow; (but) the Blessed God shall come down teaching (that) His death shall bring (the) despairing rest.
3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb
Not everything from the first century survives today. Rome charted star maps and recorded the constellations and their movements, they were pagan, they would have. Google "Roman astronomy" and you will know it is true that they did.
3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb
The evidence is that energy cannot be created nor destroyed, that's a scientific fact. What is the universe but an enormous ball of energy? Everything is energy in one form or another, meaning everything within the universe could have never been created and it can never be destroyed, because everything is energy. That's basic logic and will hold up to scrutiny. Who's to say our big bang was the first?
3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb
One man wrote all of Genesis, Moses. What makes you think he couldn't have intentionally coded the names in himself? Man is the one who created language, so of course a book written in language could have been coded, especially if that code is within a book written by one man.
That's not a very good example because Genesis has only one author, your point was that of 40 different authors.edit on 22-11-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)
3NL1GHT3N3D1
The standards I use for the miracles are physics, which say that the miracles Jesus performed were impossible. Those are my standards, what are yours?edit on 22-11-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)
3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by arpgme
Not strange at all. Rome (who legalized Christianity and put the NT together) were avid astronomers and were also pagan. They kept up with the skies movements just like many other cultures in those times. I don't find it too far out of the question to think they could have set up the crucifixion scenario around the time of the eclipse after the fact.
One man wrote all of Genesis, Moses.
The style and manner in which those books are written give no room to believe, or even to suppose, they were written by Moses; for it is altogether the style and manner of another person speaking of Moses.
In Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers, (for every thing in Genesis is prior to the times of Moses and not the least allusion is made to him therein,) the whole, I say, of these books is in the third person; it is always, the Lord said unto Moses, or Moses said unto the Lord; or Moses said unto the people, or the people said unto Moses; and this is the style and manner that historians use in speaking of the person whose lives and actions they are writing. It may be said, that a man may speak of himself in the third person, and, therefore, it may be supposed that Moses did; but supposition proves nothing; and if the advocates for the belief that Moses wrote those books himself have nothing better to advance than supposition, they may as well be silent.
But granting the grammatical right, that Moses might speak of himself in the third person, because any man might speak of himself in that manner, it cannot be admitted as a fact in those books, that it is Moses who speaks, without rendering Moses truly ridiculous and absurd:
--for example, Numbers xii. 3: "Now the man Moses was very MEEK, above all the men which were on the face of the earth."
If Moses said this of himself, instead of being the meekest of men, he was one of the most vain and arrogant coxcombs; and the advocates for those books may now take which side they please, for both sides are against them:
if Moses was not the author, the books are without authority;
and if he was the author, the author is without credit, because to boast of meekness is the reverse of meekness, and is a lie in sentiment.
When we read in the books ascribed to Moses, Joshua, etc., that they (the Israelites) came by stealth upon whole nations of people, who, as the history itself shews, had given them no offence; that they put all those nations to the sword; that they spared neither age nor infancy; that they utterly destroyed men, women and children; that they left not a soul to breathe; expressions that are repeated over and over again in those books, and that too with exulting ferocity; are we sure these things are facts? are we sure that the Creator of man commissioned those things to be done? Are we sure that the books that tell us so were written by his authority?
It is not the antiquity of a tale that is an evidence of its truth; on the contrary, it is a symptom of its being fabulous; for the more ancient any history pretends to be, the more it has the resemblance of a fable. The origin of every nation is buried in fabulous tradition, and that of the Jews is as much to be suspected as any other.
To charger the commission of things upon the Almighty, which in their own nature, and by every rule of moral justice, are crimes, as all assassination is, and more especially the assassination of infants, is matter of serious concern.The Bible tells us, that those assassinations were done by the express command of God. To believe therefore the Bible to be true, we must unbelieve all our belief in the moral justice of God; for wherein could crying or smiling infants offend? And to read the Bible without horror, we must undo every thing that is tender, sympathising, and benevolent in the heart of man. Speaking for myself, if I had no other evidence that the Bible is fabulous, than the sacrifice I must make to believe it to be true, that alone would be sufficient to determine my choice.
The Romans. The first Roman calendar was said to have been created by Romulus at the founding of Rome in 753 B.C.E. The original Roman calendar was based on the lunar month, and the year was thought to contain ten lunar months. Later, Numa Pompilius added the months January and February (Januarius and Februarius). Tarquinius Priscus (616-579 B.C.E.), an Etruscan king, made further refinements. His calendar was 355 days long, with an extra month after February every two years. This extra month was at first called Mercedinus, "payment for work," and was a time when land leases were paid. Later, this extra month was known as Intercalans. The Pontifex Maximus would determine the length of Intercalans, to bring the calndar in line with the Solar Year.
Julius Caesar According to Pliny the Elder, there were three calendars in the Roman Empire at the time of Julius Caesar (shown at left): the Chaldean, Egyptian, and Greek calendars. All of these calendars could trace their origins to the Babylonian calendar. Pliny the Elder also tells us that Julius Caesar adopted a strictly solar calendar on the advice of the Egyptian astronomer Sosigenes of Alexandria. Sosigenes calculated the Solar Year to have 365.25 days (365 days and 6 hours).
To accomodate this quarter-day discrepancy, Julius Caesar adopted a calendar of 365 days like the Egyptians, but made every fourth year a leap year on the advice of Egyptian astronomer Sosigenes of Alexandria. This new calendar was strictly based on the Solar Year, with no attempt to reconcile it with the Lunar Month.
Astronomy is the oldest of the natural sciences, dating back to antiquity, with its origins in the religious, mythological, and astrological practices of pre-history: vestiges of these are still found in astrology, a discipline long interwoven with public and governmental astronomy, and not completely disentangled from it until a few centuries ago in the Western World (see astrology and astronomy). In some cultures astronomical data was used for astrological prognostication.
Ancient astronomers were able to differentiate between stars and planets, as stars remain relatively fixed over the centuries while planets will move an appreciable amount during a comparatively short time.