End this media-promoted, "kung-fu" madness!

To add one more thing... This entire thread is utterly, utterly ridiculous. Say you have a bunch of noobs doing 'kung fu' and trying to hit each other... So what? Can it not be fun for them? Say you have people joining an 'MMA' gym and fighting each other UFC style... Can they not get a kick out of it, if that is the way they roll? personally, I'm not all about that kind of thing, but everybody is different. Violence is a part of human nature, It always has been and it always will be. It can never be erradicated, nor should it be. The very capacity for violence is what gives rise to our capacity for peacefulness. The least of our worries is martial artists going around thinking they know kung fu and having the occasional battle of fisticuffs. Martial Arts is not the root of our violent nature, and it does not cause a person to become violent and go out and attack people. If anything, it has the complete opposite effect. If you're arguing about UFC type of glorification of violence, that is perhaps another issue. I think the OP is suggesting that traditional martial arts such as karate and kung fu have to go... Should we ban sports, too? football, soccer, ice hockey, car racing, heck, even tennis (when they smash their rackets in rage)... If this thread is a troll, congratulations, I guess.

Early this year I was promoted to Qinglong in Shaolin Paochui Kung Fu by the Shaolin Athletic Association in Beijing, POC. I've also studied Chen family Taijiquan and Wing Chun for significant periods of time and had a smattering of experience with a handful of other arts (6 months of Wu Taijiquan, some Kickboxing and Jujitsu, a little informal Aikijitsu and WW2 era combatives). I'm going to restrict myself to talking about Kung Fu here as it's the only art in which I'm really qualified enough to have a (meaningful) opinion.

First, in reference to the video of two Kung Fu fighters going at it in the 50s. This fight was a cataclysmic failure -- pretty much everyone involved was horrified by the lack of combative skill exhibited (including the fighters themselves). I was in conversation once with a student of one of the older fighters' disciples, but sadly it was many years ago, and I can't remember much of what he said. What does stick out is that this experience caused the master in question to completely alter the way he taught martial arts, and he introduced free-sparring shortly after the debacle.

It's also worth putting this fight in context. Chinese martial arts were made illegal under Ching rule from 1644 to 1911, and a huge amount of skill and knowledge went underground at this point. Much of it disappeared forever. Then, just a few years later, Kung Fu was outlawed AGAIN under Communism. At this point, some masters took the little martial knowledge they'd inherited / resuscitated overseas to escape persecution, or, like the Chen family in Chenjiagou, practised in secret at great risk. So, when we look at Kung Fu from this time period, we're seeing an art that's been stunted by persecution, and not yet recovered.

Eventually, the PRC realised the cultural value of Chinese martial arts, and lifted the ban. This is where modern Wushu came from (as distinguished from Wushu, which is a catchall term for Chinese martial arts, much like Kung Fu). There has been a real effort in the years since to revive Kung Fu's effectiveness and rediscover the ways in which it used to be trained. Some arts (like Chen Taiji, or Shaolin Paochui) are relatively similar as they were passed on privately behind closed doors. Others had to be almost rebuilt from the ground up. The most noticeable evolution in trying to make Kung Fu effective again has been the creation of Sanda and San Shou (alternate rules for free sparring with Kung Fu techniques which, over time, has evolved into a style of Chinese Kickboxing) and full contact push hands competition (stand up grappling -- the quality of which varies dramatically).

The second thing I'd like to add is that someone earlier mentioned an instance where a group of Kung Fu masters fought Muay Thai guys and got decimated. That may well be true. But, it's also true that China and Thailand organise regular competitions between Muay Thai fighters and Kung Fu guys (of numerous styles) and that by and large, the Chinese win most of the matches.

Regarding making Kung Fu (or martial arts in general) illegal. That's just ridiculous. Yes, obviously, as a rank holder in Kung Fu, I'm biased. But, any martial art requires years of physical and mental training to master, and it often involves losing quite a few fights on the way up. These things serve to give most real martial artists a very mature outlook on physical violence.

Contrast with that the ease of picking up a gun, and its relative lethality compared to Kung Fu, and the comparison becomes pretty much meaningless.

only through the first page but i just wanted to say this is a lame thread.
i have trained most of my life. catch wrestling mostly.
it teaches self defense, control, and confidence among other things.

it is no where near the same thing.

my child can not accidentally take my submission knowledge with me in her backpack and brandish it in the class room.
dylan and eric can not brandish kung fu at columbine and mow down their classmates.

see the difference?

the sandy hook kid??

pic up a gun and you can become an instant killing machine either by accident or because youre a loon.
if you take a king fu class(which is beautiful but not practical btw) are you instantly a nasty mofo or do you have to train for years and years to have the ability to kill like a gun?
joke thread

BASSPLYR
Personally I think Kung Fu is the most deadly martial art. Mostly due to its stealthyness. I mean Ninjitsu is supposed to be stealthy but is it really? I"

are you serious?
to each is own i guess?
kung fu is a beautiful art. i think it teaches discipline, respect, and fitness and thats about it.
i hope people continue to teach and learn because i want those styles to survive but theyre not what i would call deadly arts. not by a long shot

reply to post by swanne


I hope you are sarcastic because I think every young woman should be trained in some martial art, my daughter especially. You might as well say ..hey let's dumb down the nation and make it illegal to know how to defend yourself. It's a double edge sword, there will always be those who will wield any knowledge for bad and those that will need that knowledge to defend against it.

BASSPLYR
reply to post by boncho

 

Also about neck breaking. I don't know about watered down mma where they are never trained nor drilled to break necks in combative situations and no mma is not a combative situation.

The technique is very simple to perform and easy to apply especially in a clinch.

im still reading and i may have missed it but what technique are you talking about?
neck breaking from the clinch? huh

ive been in a clinch a thousand times easy. i had peoples heads in my plum and my head has been in theirs. i am lost on what you are talking about..

if im clinched and my opponents head is in my plum, i can pull their face forward for knees and/or i can control their body movement. that is is what it is for.
neck breaking? not so much

this thread is hilarious

CardiffGiant

kung fu is a beautiful art. i think it teaches discipline, respect, and fitness and thats about it.
i hope people continue to teach and learn because i want those styles to survive but theyre not what i would call deadly arts. not by a long shot

This is turning into something from bullshido.com... I don't want to agree with the OP at all, but I strongly disagree with your statement. Chinese kung fu originally was, and still is, an art designed for killing if the need arises. Just because you have never seen authentic kung fu, does not mean that the arts are not effective. I also cannot point to any cases or references here other than my own experience, so we will have to agree to disagree

swanne or whatever your name is. i think you are way off in all of this.

martial arts, any style is a fabulous thing to learn for any age/sex.
it can teach so many different things to so many individuals.
my daughter is 14 months old and i will teach her to grapple.

i dont know of anyone that takes up the martial arts to become a killing machine. i dont see martial arts students out there playing the knock out game. i dont see them gang banging and such.
there is a lot of discipline to be learned.

i am amazed really at all the people going on about their classical northern/southern style kung fu and their chi gong..
the din mak? ok bloodsport.

im sorry but youre not going to learn the ways of the ancients, the monks by learnng bak mei from your new york born sifu at the strip mall. not going to happen.

if you want to learn a martial art for the beauty of it. for the calming effects. for the discipline. for the physical/mental fitness then you absolutely should take up wing chun or tai chi etc etc.

if you want to learn how to fight and/or how to defend yourself well then you should get on the mat and grapple or(preferably both) take up muay thai.
its been proven time and time again. the last almost 20 years of the ufc has brought it into our homes via the tv. its been happening down in brazil for 75 years.
the gracies have been putting their jui jitsu up against all comers for 75ish years and it works. theyve proven that.
the catch wrestlers have been doing the same in the states. a lot of the old catch wrestlers were working guys. in the mines and on the farms. they hit the carnival circuit and took it nation wide. these catch wrestlers were doing what the gracies did in brazil they put it to the test.
99% of the time it goes to the mat and when that happens your praying mantis style will not help you.
you can take your tai chi into the ring with even a novice muay thai practitioner and you are going to have a ahrd time.

catch wrestling was my choice. there was a small cluster of old timers that knew it and were passing it on where i lived. i was already wrestling in school so it made sense.
i have had plenty of fights. never against my will or that wasnt pre planned. i dont go out and kill people. i have never met a martial artist that does this.
i dont know what has caused you to think this way.

i wish every person would learn some form of martial arts. those classical chinese styles are beautiful. i wish i knew some of them. i hope they never fade away.
its great for the person and the competitions/demonstrations are fantastic.

that said, if you really want to be able to defend yourself in a real situation it would be a bad choice to learn one of these styles.
stick to grappling(whatever discipline you choose) or(preferably both) the muay thai.
its effective and it has been proven.

chances are there is no catch wrestling around you but i am sure there is some form of jui jitsu accessible. if you are in junior high or high school i highly recommend the wrestling program.
you will learn greco or folk style wrestling and you would be amazed at the control you learn.
if you got into a real life situation you would fare well with your wrestling

Tasmanaut

CardiffGiant

kung fu is a beautiful art. i think it teaches discipline, respect, and fitness and thats about it.
i hope people continue to teach and learn because i want those styles to survive but theyre not what i would call deadly arts. not by a long shot

This is turning into something from bullshido.com... I don't want to agree with the OP at all, but I strongly disagree with your statement. Chinese kung fu originally was, and still is, an art designed for killing if the need arises. Just because you have never seen authentic kung fu, does not mean that the arts are not effective. I also cannot point to any cases or references here other than my own experience, so we will have to agree to disagree

why is it from bullshido?
because i dont think kung fu is a practical art for real life situations?
sorry but i dont.
has it not been proven that most fights wind up on the ground? from the ppv ufc fights to the backyard brawl crap on youtube. 99% of the time it hits the ground.
that is real life correct?
so what is mr kung fu or tai chi going to do when it winds up on the ground? this is a serious question.
hell i remember the hallway fights at school. two kids start to go at it throwing wild punches and sure enough to th ground it goes. either from a takedown(usually a trip/fall) but thats where it goes.

i also dont think what is taught today in the strip malls and the ymca's can really be compared to the ancients.
take an ancient form of shoulin kung fu. 2,000 years ago these guys were dedicating their life to it. it was their way of life. training their mind and training their body.
that is not even close to the same thing as what is being taught today.
you going to the strip mall dojo or the sifu's garage 3 days a week for 90 minutes to train in between work/school, family, life, etc is not the same thing. i dont care how much chi gong you practice.

how does it work in the modern kung fu school? i really do want to know

even if you walk into a high school wrestling club you will see the guys on the mat, grappling, learning their positions and transitions. in the jiu jitsu school you will see the same. you will see full contact grappling. people tapping out and getting tapped out.
go into a muay thai center and you will see some controlled damage happening.

how does it go in a kung fu school?

i took tae kwon do when i was around 10.
i remember lots of hand techniques. lots of forms. lots of cardio. lots of air kicking and board breaking for belt tests. i dont recall any actual fighting.
is it the same in kung fu?
im sorry but doing the din mak on the wooden man is not pratical. do you agree or no?

after all that is said though, i still wish people would practice it. it is beautiful and it is ancient. i wish i knew some of those styles. i just dont find it pratical for people that really want to learn defense.
just my opinion.

reply to post by CardiffGiant


On the ground is no different than standing up, the position changes but the principle remains the same. However,If you end up on the ground, you've already done something wrong. There are many practical ways to avoid being taken to the ground, I won't elaborate. I like to have friendly sparring and wrestling sessions with my friends sometime, I used to be afraid of grappling and being taken down, since I've been studying tai chi, It is much harder to take me down, and I can out wrestle stronger people using much less force and no agression. I'm not amazing at it, but a person hell bent on taking you down like a rampaging bull is very easy to deal with.

I do agree that most of the systems, teachers and students today are completely useless for self defense. I view it like this. Think of martial arts schools analogous to religions. At one point in time someone may have been a very good fighter, and they tried to transmit that to others, in the same way that once upon a time a man may have stumbled upon a spiritual truth and tried to transmit that to others. The message has been diluted and the practicality all but lost. But that doesn't mean there is no truth to it. In the end it is just one human body and it moves in the particular way it does, there is an efficient way to move and an inefficient way to move. Everything is Kung Fu, but if a person doesn't understand that first, they will learn nothing

I don't believe in forms or techniques personally, but in principles. For example, rather than, 'person punches like this, you block in this way then do x y z.', you respond in an appropriate way to certain kinds of energy and intent that is direct at you in a natural spontaneous response... easier said than done I suppose...

edit: I sound like a massive arrogant jerk. I'm sorry, this is one of my favourite subjects, I don't mean to come across this way. I really know very little about the things I say other than what I have experienced personally, please don't take offense, I'm not taking offense either

Tasmanaut
reply to post by CardiffGiant

 

On the ground is no different than standing up, the position changes but the principle remains the same. However,If you end up on the ground, you've already done something wrong. There are many practical ways to avoid being taken to the ground, I won't elaborate. I like to have friendly sparring and wrestling sessions with my friends sometime, I used to be afraid of grappling and being taken down, since I've been studying tai chi, It is much harder to take me down, and I can out wrestle stronger people using much less force and no agression.


I don't believe in forms or techniques personally, but in principles. For example, rather than, 'person punches like this, you block in this way then do x y z.', you respond in an appropriate way to certain kinds of energy and intent that is direct at you in a natural spontaneous response... easier said than done I suppose...

edit: I sound like a massive arrogant jerk. I'm sorry, this is one of my favourite subjects, I don't mean to come across this way. I really know very little about the things I say other than what I have experienced personally, please don't take offense, I'm not taking offense either

edit on 2-12-2013 by Tasmanaut because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-12-2013 by Tasmanaut because: (no reason given)

first, you dont sound like a jerk at all. this is one of y favorite topics as well and i will talk to you and go back and forth with you all day. i love t. thanks for the conversation. i love to get other peoples opinion.

not, on to it.

you said if you are on the ground then you have done something wrong. i disagree. that may be true for you.. not true for me. i have trained standing on my feet but i am far better and far more comfortable on the ground. some people, believe it or not go to the ground on purpose and for many different reasons.
for some, the ground is a better spot because they are physically a weaker person. on the ground this person can utilize leverage, control, and stamina. these are things that can be learned.
for some people, even if they threw a well timed blow, it would be ineffective on their opponent because of their relative sizes.
personally, i do not want to get hit in the face. on the ground, it can still happen but to a much less damaging effect. for you to throw a blow that hurts me or does damage from the ground, you would have to have me mounted and be perched all the way up on my body and i am confident that is not going to happen. of course it can and is totally possible but i am comfortable in my skills down there that it wont.
on the ground a the weaker person with superior stamina can wear the other person out if they feel they are superior from there.
helio gracie was like 140 pounds and he had matches last up to for hours before. its the like ali rope a dope from the ground. the larger person wears himself out trying to waste the little guy. he gets tired and weaker and then it happens.
the universal saying in grappling is position before submission. jui jitsu especially is a chess match. it was designed for long fights with no time limits and over the past 20 years it has constantly been retouched and is becoming more aggressive. the reason for this is the fights are shorter and the fighters are better on the ground.
remember seeing royce gracie pull people to the ground in ufc 1? this was not a mistake and he had not done something wrong already. he knew he was better on the ground and he could take them out.
helio gracie could let the fight go for an hour cause there was no time limit. he could go to the ground right away because he knew he was better there.
these days its different. i never saw the days of most fighters not knowing how to fight from the ground.
now, even the karate guys(lyoto machida) for example train on the ground and they do this because like i said, 99% of the fights end up there.
of course he is better on his feet but he still spends time training there.
i can not think of a single fighter in any of the major organizations(there are more than ufc) tha does not train on the ground. in the early days of the ufc, there were guys that were straight boxing, kung fu, etc.
these reason for this is everyone thought fights were like in the movies and those styles were better.
the only people that were in the know were the grapplers, wrestlers, jitsu guys, etc.
that should show you right there.

a little 160 pound guy changed martial arts.
royce came in there and tapped out all those guys. all the 'superior strikers' tapped out. people started to pay attention to what happened when the fight went to the ground.
that was the whole idea of ufc 1.
ufc 1 was started by rorion gracie so that he could send royce in there to showcase jui jitsu and prove to the world that grappling was superior and he did just that.
funny thing is royce was not even the best gracie. he was sent in because of his age and his size and physique.
martial artists all over the world changed their training plans.

there was a fighter named jason delucia in the early ufc's. his discipline was jeet kun do. im sure you know what that is. he fought royce and royce broke his arm.
from ufc 1 untill the last say 5 years is has been dominated be people that were either complete ground fighters or primarily ground fighters.
maybe a little longer than 5 years.
of course there was a sprinkle of strikers in there but most were not.
then you got the guys like chuck liddell that dominated standing. thing was chuck liddell was a hell of a wrestler too and thats kind of where we are today.
btw, i use the ufc because most people are not familiar with the other promotions.
that is kind of where we are today. its either guys that are sick on the ground or guys like say anderson silva, who prefer to fight standing up but are still black belts in jui jitsu or guys like josh barnett that are expert catch wrestlers.
we are just now starting to see the guys like jon jones who really are equally comfortable in either spots.
none of this happened by accident. i think back to all the major players in these promotions and i can only think of 1 person with no real experience in training on the ground that has won and that was maurice smith.
he was a championship kick boxer and he beat mark coleman.

doesnt this all count for something? i mean these are the facts that back up the point of ground fighting being superior and 99% of fights going to the ground.
now though, it has changed so much its not that ground fighting is superior in the big picture but you have to cross train. most successful figed.hters these days train standing and grappling, however, even in the big promotions with the best fighters, you can still be very successful if you only grapple but you will not go very far if you do not grapple. if you are a striker only you will get taken down and you will get submitted.

cont

I studied shotokan karate for 8 years and achieved my black belt 1st dan level through a 5th dan sensei.

There are 2 problems here. 1st being a watered down version of techniques, either deliberately by the East to the west to give them an advantage or through corruption and poor teachers..which is more likely. Many "teachers" push students quickly through their belts to gain extra money and teach completely ineffective techniques but at the same time giving the student the belief that they can protect themselves and others, when in reality they cannot.

Despite what level you have achieved or have been lead to believe you have achieved, there are no amount of years training that can teach you to out run a bullet.

reply to post by CardiffGiant


You make a fair point, if you can't do ground work you have no business in MMA matches at all. UFC has been dominated by those with bjj skills, and it does appear to be highly effective in that context, the most effective even.

The issue I have with this is that the mat is softer than concrete and you aren't as likely to cop an unlucky knock to the back of the head from the ground. Most altercations happen in town, and its usually in a drunken environment. You may be an excellent BJJ practitioner for example, but lets say you take someone to the ground and get them mounted or ready for a submission, then his buddy comes along and pushes you off, you hit your head on the ground, and you're gone.

The effectiveness of striking is also downplayed in the UFC, I know the gloves aren't that large or padded, but they take a considerable amount of the snap out of a strike. Without gloves, it only takes a light tap in the right spot and it can be lights out, not to mention the outlawed techniques of throat strikes, groin attacks, eye gouging, biting and elbows to the back of the skull. I've very aware that pretty much every real instance of violence ends up on the ground, but I also don't think most people instigating these attacks would be wrestlers or bjj practitioners. Personally, I'm confident that I could avoid being taken down instantly by an angry person. I'm a pretty small guy, about 143 pounds, so I this sounds preposterous I know. All I'm saying is, I think it is a big risk taking a fight to the ground as a go-to tactic in a real life self defense situation. I would rather keep my distance and balance, and if need be, buy myself enough time for escape

sensing hands or pushing hands in tai chi ch'uan has made me a lot more comfortable in grappling distance. Essentially, at a higher level it becomes a kind of wrestling match, but the tournaments that are held are utter rubbish as well... If a good wrestler or judo player came up against a good tai chi practitioner, it would be a pretty interesting thing to watch

I watched an interesting video a while ago, take it for what it is. Obviously this is not a live full contact match, it is a gentle demonstration, but hopefully you can see the skill of the tai chi practitioner. This does not prove anything about fighting, but it shows where a martial application is hidden. This guy seems like a peaceful person too, listen to what he says

Tasmanaut
reply to post by CardiffGiant

 

I don't believe in forms or techniques personally, but in principles. For example, rather than, 'person punches like this, you block in this way then do x y z.', you respond in an appropriate way to certain kinds of energy and intent that is direct at you in a natural spontaneous response... easier said than done I suppose...

edit on 2-12-2013 by Tasmanaut because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-12-2013 by Tasmanaut because: (no reason given)

sorry for the long winded reply. as i said, this is a favorite topic of mine.

i would think that after 75 years in brazil and after 20 or so years mainstream in the states people will finally accept that grappling is the superior way.
if you enter the ufc having been a college level champion wrestler you have the chance to do very well. if you enter the ufc having been say a tae kwon do equivalent to that, if you do not factor grappling into your skills you will get chopped down fast.
i dont care if you are a champion level boxer.
if roy jones junior or mike tyson fought in the ufc, i really dont think they would dominate and they would have far more losses than wins.
i know this guy does not fight in the ufc but do you really think tyson would beat say fedor emelianenko?
i dont see it happening. what about randy couture? i say nope.
of course there is always the chance that tyson gets the knockout on couture as he goes in the the double leg but thats his 1 and only shot.
if couture gets him down, how does tyson knock him out?
what about the kung fu guy?
if the distance is closed, how can this guy utilize his punches, traps, and kicks? simple answer is he cant.

you said you dont believe in techniques. i agree with what you said about responding with x, y, z.
this is not the thoughts with classical style kung fu. as much as i dont like to talk about bruce lee when talking about actual fighting because he was not a fighter i will. wasnt that his whole deal with getting away from wing chun? didnt he see the regimented styles as not effective? the whole be like water thing he used to say...
bruce was very smart in his fight philosophy. check out the tao of jeet kun do. here you have bruce lee, the guy people argue as being one of the best martial artists of all time and his book. go through that book and you will see lee talking about grappling. you will see diagrams of ground positions and submissions.
bruce lee knew the importance of grappling and he was going to do somethiing great with that.
so back to the classical kung fu. these styles are very set in their ways and very regimented. they are very much like if a person punches you then you do this.
this is why they are inferior. well, one of the reasons.

i have to stress again that i am talking about all of this from a stand point of being practical and from a realistic fight situation. a lot of the kicks and stances especially in these styles are not practical. they are not effective and a great many of them put you off balance. for training of the mind. for training in cardio and stretching. to keep these arts alive. for discipline or just for something to do then i think kung fu is awesome. if you want to learn to defend yourself on the street(i mean in real life. it could be the school hallway or the mall parking lot) then kung fu is not the best way and it has been proven.
in a real fight it is probably not wise to throw a kick to the head. it leaves you open and off balance if you miss.
in my opinion i dont think a kick above maybe the lower ribs needs to be thrown and i wouldnt throw a kick that high. that he me though. i am a tall guy and i dont want to be on one foot with my other leg in the air that high.
kung fu(and i am using an umbrella term because i am aware there are many styles, both northern and southern) is very much like classical music in so much as it is meant to be 'played' a certain way. 'note for note'
fur elise is not supposed to be improvised and thats how i look at kung fu

as for your tai chi. its cool that it has made you a better grappler.
i would have thought that at most it would have gave you better balance because of some of the stances they utilize and maybe made you a bit harder to take down.

if you go over some of these styles under the umbrella term of kung fu then you will see that they are not the most practical.
if you look at hung gar. it uses a horse stance in a lot of its forms.

here is a horse stance

www.tulsakungfu.com...

how can you believe that this is an effective stance in a practical situation? do you think an effective punch can really be thrown from this position?
this is the kind of stuff bruce lee realized was holding him back ad started to shy away from.
be formless. be like water. keep all that is useful and chip away at all this is not.
makes sense right?
lee was a hell of a fight philosopher/trainer/coach. he just never really tried to apply it. in reality he was not a fighter.
i think he went to one or two 'karate' competitions and thats it. of course there are the stories, or now i should say legends of him in closed door matches or roof top battles in china. of him on a movie set ripping through people but none of it can be proven.
back to helio gracie. he took on all comers and it was photographed and in the news paper and on tv. with bruce lee it is all he said she said.
something like my sifu's brother was an advisor on enter the dragon and he said bruce lee did this or that.
i know there are pics/vids of bruce doing a 1 inch punch and him laying into the heavy back with sick force but no proven fights.
i mention him again because of his philosophy and for the way he trained his body physically. for the way he trained his mind. i mention him because he is usually the go to guy when people think about martial arts(not fighting)...he was a wing chun guy, trained by the great ip man and in the end he talked about kung fu(again, the umbrella term) not being practical and he himself adopted new principles.
if you dont want to beleive me then believe bruce lee.. ha

in just 20ish years the professional fight game has changed and its because of 160 pound royce gracie. he proved to people that you had to know how to fight on the ground. jui jitsu, catch/greco/folk wrestlers have known this since forever but the average person didint know this.
about hung gar again. there is legend of wong fei hung(portrayed in 100's of movies) beating up multiple guys at once. sometimes 5 or 10 guys. he used his hung gar. about this. it is only stuff of legend and in the time period this was going on, people didnt grapple, they too practiced hung gar.

thanks for talking about this. i will go back and forth with you or anyone else all day long. i love to talk about this stuff. i too apologize if i seem cocky or rude or arrogant. i am passionate about this and have spent a large part of my life grappling(and tapping out).

if you do like to grapple, you should research catch wrestling. its been around a long time. it is more aggressive and brutal than jui jitsu. you may like it.
some of the locks we use in catch can do some damage.
we have discipline though. we are not killing machines walking the streets throwing out punishment with our bare hands like the OP suggests..

Tasmanaut
reply to post by CardiffGiant

 

The issue I have with this is that the mat is softer than concrete and you aren't as likely to cop an unlucky knock to the back of the head from the ground. Most altercations happen in town, and its usually in a drunken environment. You may be an excellent BJJ practitioner for example, but lets say you take someone to the ground and get them mounted or ready for a submission, then his buddy comes along and pushes you off, you hit your head on the ground, and you're gone.

The effectiveness of striking is also downplayed in the UFC, I know the gloves aren't that large or padded, but they take a considerable amount of the snap out of a strike. Without gloves, it only takes a light tap in the right spot and it can be lights out, not to mention the outlawed techniques of throat strikes, groin attacks, eye gouging, biting and elbows to the back of the skull. I've very aware that pretty much every real instance of violence ends up on the ground, but I also don't think most people instigating these attacks would be wrestlers or bjj practitioners. Personally, I'm confident that I could avoid being taken down instantly by an angry person.

as far as the head on concrete thing. yeah, if you bust your head on the pavement its light out. i wouldnt go so far as to say most altercations happen in drunken environments.
first, to that i say it is smart to avoid those environments all together. then you dont have to know any self defense.
other than that though, it can happen anywhere.
in school or in a parking lot, you can have someone mounted and their buddy knocks you in the head and youre done. same can be said if you are fighting on your feet. it really makes no difference there.

i dont think the gloves take a considerable amount of snap out of a strike at all. those gloves are brutal. have you ever been hit with someone wearing those? its rough.
you have just as much knock out power with those gloves on than without. the major difference is you will not break your hand.
there are a lot of strikes and small joint manipulations that are against the rules. so what?
if i am in a fight and i am on the ground, mounted or not i can eye gouge and fish hook. everything is legal in real life.

you make a good point about the grappler not being the one instigating the fight in real life. same goes for the boxer or the kung fu guy. kind of goes against what the OP said.
i dont see those guys being the ones to start the trouble.

still though. personally i would much rather be fighting on the ground. i am in a better spot there.

you very may well be right. maybe you could avoid an angry person taking you down the the dirt and laying it on you. are you really that confident though?
personally i was never willing to chance it.

can you see mr hung gar horse stance fighting in real life though? in a mall parking lot or a school hallway?
i cant.
hahaah

edit* i watched a few minutes of that video. i really liked it.
that dude had some moves. i really liked them. he made them look very fluid and effortless. i liked it a lot

reply to post by CardiffGiant


Fedor Emelianenko is an amazing machine... I fully understand your point about the classical kung fu styles being like classical music as well... it works against someone else doing the same thing and playing along so to speak. I've been a massive Bruce Lee fan of course, I admire his philosophy and tried to do the 'jeet kune do' thing, before realizing that I really ought to learn from a someone with experience rather than just make stuff up... which brings me to my next point

The external martial arts such as TKD, karate, the animal kung fu forms, etc, turn a once fluid person into a wooden dummy. I agree that their effectiveness has all but been lost. But there are also the internal styles, Bagua, Baiji, tai chi, etc, and I don't believe the effectiveness of these arts has been proven or dis proven. These arts are esoteric in nature... My teacher always says to me, everybody knows how to kick and how to punch, that isn't the point in studying the internal arts. At the very least, from a martial standpoint, the internal styles (i'll speak from my tai chi perspective) teach a power generation method, rather than specific techniques. Rather than a particular strike, they show you how to put 'whole body' power into any strike you happen to do. This is through relaxation, weight transfer and using the waist. This is not unique to internal martial art styles, any good fighter would tell you these things, but this is where the martial focus is in the internal styles. For example, a karate guy or any other hard style would suddenly blossom if the practitioner applied the principles from the internal systems into their techniques. I really wish more people would look into the internal martial arts, they are the jewel in the crown of Chinese culture but it is very misunderstood

edit: I can't see some guy in a horse stance defending himself and no, I'm not that confident really. If there is some big dude and he wants to take me out, I'm out of there. I shouldn't have said that really, I can't be sure I could avoid being taken down. All I know is I have a buddy that likes to do drunken sparring. He takes it very seriously and gives me a lot of aggression. I used to keep my distance but now I let him try to wrestle me. He throws himself off balance and over commits to everything. He still gets me in the head lock, but I drag him one way then the other and push him over. He usually gets really tired after about a minute and gives up which is no fun at all. If anything, being relaxed and not using force means I can wrestle around for a bit and not run out of energy, hopefully that buys me some time if I'm ever in that situation

also, there is one example on youtube of a guy in a ridiculous stance actually winning Its pretty funny to watch. He doesn't win because of his kung fu, he just gets luck


edit: about the gloves, I haven't actually worn any, I do have some light hand wraps I used to use for hitting my heavy bag, I did away with them after a while. I noticed from using them that just that micro cushioning effect seemed to take away some power. I may be wrong, but to me the gloves offer just a little bit of protection that makes a lot of difference. Rather than bone on bone, the thin barrier dissipates the force so that it is not as concentrated. I always figured this was so UFC matches went for longer and raked in higher ratings and more money, rather than an instant lucky KO. I'm prepared to eat my words if I'm ever proven wrong

swanne
End this media-promoted, "kung-fu" madness!

The true battle is not in the amount of blood one spills, but in the very concepts which one lets take hold of one's action.

At Time's End,

Swan

Sorry to say I totally disagree with you.

Anyone whom has studied Kung Fu should know that at it's very foundation is the use of an attackers energy against them... I.E. it's defense.

I suggest you or anyone read Tao of Jeet Kune Do

Some of Bruce Lee's quotes

“Voidness is that which stands right in the middle between this and that. The void is all-inclusive, having no opposite--there is nothing which it excludes or opposes. It is living void, because all forms come out of it and whoever realizes the void is filled with life and power and the love of all beings.”
― Bruce Lee, Tao of Jeet Kune Do

“Real living is living for others.”
― Bruce Lee

“Those who are unaware they are walking in darkness will never seek the light.”
― Bruce Lee

“Knowledge will give you power, but character respect.”
― Bruce Lee

“Showing off is the fool's idea of glory.”
― Bruce Lee

“A quick temper will make a fool of you soon enough.”
― Bruce Lee

“If you don't want to slip up tomorrow, speak the truth today.”
― Bruce Lee

anyone can fire a gun... you point and you pull the trigger... it can be achieved with no training... No pain or understanding or effort is required to achieve a bullet exiting a barrel...

On the other hand you have Kung Fu... a process that requires a great deal of learning about ones self a great deal of effort and understanding... to be effective at Kung Fu you first have to become effective at living...

Peace,

Korg.

reply to post by CardiffGiant


Hi CardiffGiant, you make some excellent points -- particularly that every martial artist should have a basic knowledge of how to fight on the ground. Many of us today do try to get those skills. For me, it was rolling with the Judo guys at uni and working out with a friend who had a purple in BJJ.

But I have to disagree with the assertion that grappling is the 'best' type of martial art. The '99% of fights go to the ground' myth is just that; a myth. you can read here where that statistic comes from and why it is misleading: ejmas.com...

Obviously, if you take fighters who have no idea how grappling works, they will be easy to take down and submit (I think this, more than anything, is what led to the Gracie domination of early UFC's). But that works both ways -- pair up an amateur Judo brown belt against a decent boxer, and the fight probably won't go beyond the first punch, let alone to the ground. Today, largely due to UFC and the Gracie's, we're far more educated as to the realities of combat -- I think (and hope) that most martial artists (Kung Fu men or otherwise) are better versed in how to avoid being taken down and what to do if it happens.

Also, while classical Kung Fu styles do tend to neglect ground fighting, they have a long standing tradition of stand-up grappling. Shuai Jiao is basically fast wrestling, and most Taijiquan has a predominantly grappling based curriculum. While some styles (like Wing Chun or Sanda) have little to no grappling, most Kung Fu styles have a combination of Qin na ('grabbing and holding') and Shuai Jiao ('fast wrestling') techniques.

Finally, Kung Fu is such an all-encompassing term that to make generalisations about it is almost meaningless. Every style trains differently. I can't speak for other stylists, but we certainly do train realistically, sparring hard and including grappling.

Most people don't train like that I guess. The west has an ill-informed idea of what constitutes Kung Fu. As an example, here's what Taiji's famous 'push hands' exercise should look like: www.youtube.com...

reply to post by EmperorFaustus


excellent video of push hands!!! some good examples of internal power. The explosive power shown here is not always necessary, I have been utterly toppled and bewildered by soft energy that was impossible to resist. I'm studying Cheng Man-ch'ing's 37 posture form, the explosive movements from the Chen style are absent but the 'fa jin' power I already understand and work on aside from the form

reply to post by Tasmanaut


Thanks, it's Chen Ziqiang, who is an excellent Taiji player. I have some links with him as my old Taiji master trained in Chenjiagou for 15 years or so. Although we've never met face to face, we've corresponded a number of times and he really is all about the Taiji.

There are other clips of him (and other Chen guys) performing more vigorous and competitive push hands, but I thought a vid that mentioned some of the principles behind it would be better suited to the conversation.

Although Pao Chui has it's own sensitivity training, I wholeheartedly borrowed push hands from the Chen guys and still practise / teach it as it's a fantastic drill.

EF