Police shoot 13 year old carrying fake rifle.

reply to post by benrl

The most disturbing thing, people are excusing shooting a child in the streets.

This is what I find disturbing too. We are going to let all this happen? I do not like how people are thinking nowadays, its very frightening like something out of a grade B movie.

jhn7537

JayinAR
reply to post by jhn7537

 

Anyone who is professionally trained to carry a weapon is taught to shoot center mass. Its a lethal shot to the largest area of the body.
Shooting in the knee is for Hollywood.

So any time a cop discharges their weapon they should be shooting to kill? I'm not a cop, never been in the military and never fired a weapon so I honestly don't know.

edit on 23-10-2013 by jhn7537 because: (no reason given)

The very nature of firearms is such you don't point a weapon at someone you don't intend to kill, Period.

So if a cop has a gun on you, know they already decided to kill you if you sneeze.

reply to post by jhn7537


Yes, because at that point the "me vs you" mentality has kicked in. It is your life or theirs. And that is the only time a firearm should be discharged.
Trying to shoot someone in the knee is dangerous. If you miss, you're dead. But a cop will hit you in the chest every damn time.

LoneGunMan
reply to post by benrl

 

The most disturbing thing, people are excusing shooting a child in the streets.

This is what I find disturbing too. We are going to let all this happen? I do not like how people are thinking nowadays, its very frightening like something out of a grade B movie.

Its almost as if people have been trained with knee jerk responses for things that go against the police state.



Why do you think their are so many cop shows on? Indoctrination.

benrl

Wrabbit2000
I wonder if seeing what the cops saw, might help? It gave me a slightly different perspective and desire to know more.

(Source)

How?? Who?! HUH?!

A 13yr old, in California of all places (for extreme sensitivity to guns of any kind), has THAT in his room to play with and walk out the door with?

I'll be honest here...I'd be MORE certain it was real, seeing it closer, than I would at a distance. I mean the stock even has the simulated metal nubs, rounded down and sanded smooth on cheap 3rd world production AK's. At least that's exactly how it looks at a quick glance.

It's a tragedy and perhaps even a crime. Who is the guilty one though? I'd like to start with who supplied a 13yr old with that rifle outside of supervision? I don't agree with marking toy guns to begin with ..because the LACK of a marking then makes a natural assumption for it being real, and look where that gets us. However, when that IS the state norm and law? Wow.... walking out with that carried in plain view down a street? I'm kinda speechless.

I don't know what I was expecting to see he'd been carrying as a 'toy'...but that wasn't it.

I dont know about you, but I grew up in Ca, 90s, in a nice area, I took my BB gun to the park a few times, in a bag to shoot targets with a friend.

I had cops approach me, calmly, smiling, while I held a very real looking bb rifle.

they laughed and told me the rules for discharging fire arms in city limits, they pointed out where I could go to do that.

Even brought me home and talked to my parents about it.

Those days are clearly gone, and its wrong.

Wrabbit? You remember the arguments we had on that thread about the Anaheim riots, how I was gun ho pro cop, and how i reversed my stance once reality smacked me in the face ? I can no longer give any cop anywhere the benefit of the doubt after that incident.

Cops need to be held to a scrutiny level far above and beyond the norm.

edit on 23-10-2013 by benrl because: (no reason given)

I still possess a fully automatic bb MP5 a3 replica. It looks just like the real thing, and this is in the UK.
Owning a toy gun is not a crime, regardless of how real it looks.
The crime here is an abuse of power, not possession of a toy.

reply to post by benrl


If I'm not mistaken, we grew up in the same general area of the state, in fact. I hailed from Orange County and a humble home just South of the 91/55 interchange in Orange to be specific. It was a different state and different nation overall then too.

For instance, I took a .22 rifle into Junior High School for a show and tell. They simply asked my father, in his role as a Police Officer, to remove the firing pin and make it 100% inoperative. That was sufficient back then. Now? I'm not sure you'd get a gun into a class there if a cop was actually carrying it for something other than a response call. I'll also say this case:

The Mother Is 'Still Struggling' . . . . . . Ex-Officer Who Shot Boy Still 'Depressed' : 5-Year-Old's Life, Death Linked With TV, Litigation (1985)

....was formative in how I grew to see Police, their actions and the consequences of them. Through a whole series of events later, my father and stepmother came to have contact with the Officer who shot that boy. It damn near destroyed the Officer, utterly. Much the same as I suspect the Officers in the case this thread is about, will have major issues for life. Tragedy....for all around. (For anyone interested, Anthony Sperl managed to go on and help a good many other Cops who faced similar personal crisis)

reply to post by benrl


That is what we are seeing is that knee jerk reaction. Instead of thinking it through, they just read what is presented and not really think out all the details. Like how the mass and weight of a real gun looks different in the way it is handled. The gun was not pointed at them, they had time to figure it out, instead the police themselves are having knee jerk reactions.

By the way your post of Invasion of the body snatchers cheeped me out.

lol...sort of.

Auricom
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

I have to agree with you Wrabbit. We tend to jump all over cops when it comes to things like this, instead of blaming the person involved. Even if it was a thirteen year old child.

From the pictures I've seen, he looks older than thirteen. Secondly, California is rife with street gangs like the much dreaded Latino MS-13. The kid didn't listen to the police officers, and was carrying two firearms. (For all intents and purposes, they looked like real firearms.)

We also have to realize that the police didn't know the age of this child. There would be no way of knowing until they either got closer (even then it could be difficult) or until they checked his I.D. So his age is a moot point when it boils down to it.

There's also the problem with gang members joining the army to learn how to shoot. Especially in California. I remember reading a report a while back about this and it's increasing intensity.

I'm not defending cops who shoot first and ask questions later. There's been too much of that. But we have to be able to distinguish between those kinds of cops and those who do their jobs, like the officers in this instance.

The cops saw a Latino male (and it's not a stretch to think MS-13) with two firearms who didn't comply with orders. They didn't see a thirteen year old boy with two toy guns.

I have a feeling many here should they have been officers would have done the same thing.

More insanity.
It doesn't matter if the person is 13, 27, 42, or 105. All life is precious.

These cops clearly stepped outside the law and shot this kid dead unnecessarily.

Saying "maybe they thought he was a gangbanger" DOES NOT excuse their actions. Far from it. All it shows is their bias to the situation. Shoot first, investigate later.

I'm surprised the damn pigs didn't plant a real gun on the kid. Effing thugs.

Just to clear things up for you guys. The boy did not point the gun at the police. He reached for it, most likely to put it on the ground and they shot him like a dog.

Auricom


I have a feeling many here should they have been officers would have done the same thing.

Did you really just say that?

Im gobsmacked that you can argue that this is the kids fault.
Just 10 years ago cops didnt go around shooting 13 yr old boys with toy guns.
But now it seems we are all potential target practice.

What shocks, amazes and truly blows me away is that people try to defend the officers corrupted by fear and power. No actually it kills a little piece of me. My soul sheds a tear, as the cold hard truth of the mentality of many of the "civilised" people becomes plainly apparent.

reply to post by JayinAR


I understand your position and how deep, pure and raw your hatred for Police is, on what would appear to be all levels and all situations. It's impossible to mistake. I can also appreciate your position while strongly disagreeing with it. If I claimed to not have seen abuse that made me want to go punch a cop in the nose, I'd be a liar and a hypocrite. I absolutely have ..and some of it right here by ATS stories.

However, you've spoken of this as if we've watched a video where the kid did not, at any time, point his 'weapon' at police? Now my whole attitude will change on a dime if I see that in full evidence and they had options other than shooting.

The problem is, as I've been hunting for more? I've found nothing to describe what events came between their first shouts, as reported, to drop his rifle ..and when they opened fire. Do you have a source I've not seen? I'm very curious to see more if there is more to see here.

reply to post by Evanzsayz


I may well have missed it somewhere, but can you link the supporting evidence for that? It literally does change the entire story 100% if there is clear material out there showing he never pointed that at / around toward police?

Thanks

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Read the same info. Maybe the kid did point. In which case MY entire position would change on a dime. But as pointed out above, it sounds like the kid reached for his second toy gun when they opened fire.

And no, I don't hate all cops. I do think that crooked and cowardly PIGS are scum of the Earth, though. And I would gladly tell these P. Ricks that to their face.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


It was on the link the OP provided. There are 3 pages I believe it's on page 2. It doesn't say that's exactly why they shot him but it says that the police were yelling at him. "Don't reach for the rifle!".

reply to post by blackthorne


Guys you cannot judge this after the fact. What people fail to take into account is you are getting all of the facts presented in one cohesive flow.

Totality of circumstances

Put yourself in the Deputies position..

You are driving down the road and spot a person carrying a weapon. The deputies had no idea if the weapon was fake or real until after the shooting occurred.

The standard is:
What threat did the officer perceive when deadly force was used.

While people are spending hours / days discussing this incident, the 2 deputies had to make a split second decision.

People can try to monday morning quarterback this all they want by arguing what the deputies should or should not have done. Anyone can say how they would have acted in that situation. Truth is you will have no idea how you would react until you are facing the same situation.

The simple fact is we were not present for the situation. We dont know what the weapons looked like. We dont know how the 13 year old was acting towards the deputies (including body movement).

Food for thought.

reply to post by Evanzsayz


Indeed.. In reading over a number of reports on this event since my first reply ..some still coming fresh.. I've seen that too. It's one version of multiple I've seen now.

I'd give anything for a solid eye witness (the one there was, wasn't there for the seconds that matter) and video, if any, doesn't seem to be mentioned. We seem to be left with assumptions drawn from statements and reports of statements made...to guess what precisely they saw and were reacting to as they made them.

I get the impression that police now are ready to use deadly in an instant. Do they no longer understand the consequences of shooting someone, that the person will most likely be killed.

As someone mentioned here, I don't think 13 year olds are an immediate threat of death and destruction to police.

First of all my deepest sympathies to the family involved here. Events like this can be and should be handled differently. One shot to the suspects leg should suffice.

As much as I hate to say it but some of the blame needs to be on the victim as well. He did not listen to the police. Maybe the kid was suicidal, maybe he couldn't hear, we don't know and until further information comes out we won't know.

incidents like this are a result of the climate of fear that seems to have engulfed the united states in recent years..

with bombings and massacres or attempted massacres happening on a relatively frequent basis it doesn't surprise me that the cops all have itchy trigger fingers...

i live in the U.k so i don't experience it first hand but i would imagine that LEO's in the states are shooting first and asking questions later because that is what they are being trained to do in situations where there is a potential threat for significant loss of life ( a kid with an AK would qualify)...sadly until that changes i would expect to see more of these tragic occurrences in the future..

if and when these things happen there must be an independent investigation to determine whom, if anyone is at fault and if someone is to blame those people need to be prosecuted regardless of if they are a civilian or a cop..

thats my opinion anyway for what it's worth

HawkeyeNation
First of all my deepest sympathies to the family involved here. Events like this can be and should be handled differently. One shot to the suspects leg should suffice.

As much as I hate to say it but some of the blame needs to be on the victim as well. He did not listen to the police. Maybe the kid was suicidal, maybe he couldn't hear, we don't know and until further information comes out we won't know.

Have you ever heard of the expression "frozen with fear"?

Being as the boy was 13 with cops drawing guns on him, Id imagine that the most likely scenario is the boy was confused and very very scared.