Libya heading to civil war?

Well folks, this has got to be one of the saddest national stories of the Arab Spring to date. It wasn't until the fighting started that I really took the time to learn about Libya as it was to live in as citizens described it. Gadaffi was ...a character. A bit kooky and a whole lot 'unique'. However, his people weren't cowering in fear of a civil war or being shot to death just driving to the market through a crossfire.

Now it seems it may be headed to a new level, and a new low.

Libya marks the second anniversary of the death of Muammar Gaddafi with the country on the brink of a new civil war and fighting raging in the eastern city of Benghazi, birthplace of its Arab spring revolution.

Violence between radical militias and regular forces broke out on Friday night and continued yesterday, while the capital Tripoli is braced for fallout from the kidnapping earlier this month of prime minister Ali Zaidan

I think it's a whole new type of problem when Prime Ministers are not only kidnapped, but it can still be talked about as an ongoing issue without resolution, well after it occurred. That speaks volumes to the sheer chaos of the situation across Libya and Benghazi as much as anything else.

Fighting continued into the night, with army units heading for the home of a second militia commander, Ahmed Abu Khattala, indicted by the US for the killing of US ambassador Chris Stevens last year. There, they were turned back by powerful militia units.

Source

I think it's amazing sometimes to see how choices and decisions made in one setting can have dramatic and unforeseen consequences in a later one. For example, the commander apparently responsible for the murder of Chris Stevens and 3 other Americans, using that and other victories to reach this level of power today.

I hope Libya can find a way through this without breaking up, as the article suggests could happen in time. I believe the Arab Spring has evolved into a real nasty thunderstorm which no one wanted.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Like Iraq after the fall of Saddam Hussein

reply to post by starwarsisreal


Yeah, much like Iraq I suppose. The Western Powers seem outstanding at breaking things...but fail somewhere in the process for fixing them afterward. After all, 'better nations' for the "people" have been the supposed reasons why previously stable nations have been turned into free fire war zones that are left to their own devices for the long term, right?

I think people in the future would prefer not having this kind of help, eh?

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

I hope Libya can find a way through this without breaking up, as the article suggests could happen in time. I believe the Arab Spring has evolved into a real nasty thunderstorm which no one wanted.

I don't know man, I think you'd have to be "oh not so smart" to think creating a power vacuum such as what has happened to Libya can happen without it tearing itself apart. The Libyan chapter of the Arab Spring was due to turn into a maelstrom, anyone involved in the power-shifting of Libya who would think otherwise would be naive to put it nicely.

This was bound to happen and will get worse, I'm just surprised it hasn't been sooner.
Poor Italy will be flooded with people hoping for safety soon, worse than it already is and that is not good. Considering hundreds/thousands of hopefuls die every year crossing the med I hope that thousands are not pushed to make the crossing in the height of winter.

That would be disastrous.

It definitely seems as if they are heading for another ride through hell...

I wonder how important Libya's oil fields will be in such a situation though (economic or otherwise). As far as i know, independent militia groups and extremists control different parts of the country and oil fields.

Certainly makes for an interesting situation, especially when added up with this potential war brewing.

Libya hasn't been stable for quite a few years. I always thought that they were in a civil war even before Quadaffi was overthrown. It just never made the MSM headlines.

It actually, really sucks that most of the militia forces are again extremists, left over from Libya's last war. I remember Gaddafi stating that the rebels were terrorists. He was pretty much right...but no one wanted to believe him...

Now we have these terrorists, with experience in Libya, fighting in Syria, and even getting ready for what seems to be another Libyan war.

What has this world come to?

I hope people learn from this though. This is a glimpse at the future of Syria of Assad falls...

Wrabbit2000
reply to post by starwarsisreal

 

Yeah, much like Iraq I suppose. The Western Powers seem outstanding at breaking things...but fail somewhere in the process for fixing them afterward. After all, 'better nations' for the "people" have been the supposed reasons why previously stable nations have been turned into free fire war zones that are left to their own devices for the long term, right?

I think people in the future would prefer not having this kind of help, eh?

Well unfortunately this is just disinformation, I don't think in this case it is meant to be though. Fact is we did not break anything. For the first time in their history they were free and could vote for their leaders. Were there problems, of course. The people who are breaking things are the Iranians and other fanatical muslim terrorist groups who do not want democracy to succeed.

Second it is history. You must understand these people have been killing each other based on clan or tribal allegiance since beginning of time. You did not have this under the dictators because they crushed the opposing groups.

No we don't break things. We give them the opportunity, they have to do something with it.

The Bot

Because of a poor foreign policy by America, an unstable situation has once again been created and . . . what?

America goes in to take advantage of the unstable creation that it created?

Golly.

Give the person who did this a fracking Peace Prize!

dlbott
Well unfortunately this is just disinformation, I don't think in this case it is meant to be though. Fact is we did not break anything. For the first time in their history they were free and could vote for their leaders. Were there problems, of course. The people who are breaking things are the Iranians and other fanatical muslim terrorist groups who do not want democracy to succeed.

Second it is history. You must understand these people have been killing each other based on clan or tribal allegiance since beginning of time. You did not have this under the dictators because they crushed the opposing groups.

No we don't break things. We give them the opportunity, they have to do something with it.

The Bot

I am fairly sure that Libyans actually could vote under Gaddafi's system. Under Gaddafi, Libyans would vote for their local representatives who formed regional councils. Gaddafi had also actually stepped down as the leader of Libya long ago (even though it is obvious where he really stood)...

I think it is more complicated rather than black and white. I think the ideologies behind a lot of Islamic extremists are just as bad as the ideologies behind those who espouse democracy, only to take it and force it upon countries which don't even want, or need it.

Surely having a stable country, able to compete internationally is better than a country of warring tribes. Compare the Libya of Gaddafi to the Libya of today. Heck, compare the Libya of Gaddafi to any southern African nation-state...

The whole Middle-East *problem* is all about who is , and who isn't a member of the Bank for International Settlements.

Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran are not members (Algeria is), and most African nations are not either. Neither is Afghanistan (yet).

Correlate that with where the wars and conflicts and embargoes are.


B.I.S. - member list at bottom (in fine print)



I think many countries are being held in check to keep exports limited. The Saudis and Qatar benefit the most. Some 'non' members are aligned with Saudi Arabia and get a pass (Qatar for example, they might be 'silently' directing (and laundering) some terrorist activities in favor of the B.I.S. agenda - Syria one example).

The B.I.S. also has the Basel Committee that effectively governs all world member central banks, including the U.S. Federal Reserve.

dlbott

Wrabbit2000
reply to post by starwarsisreal

 

Yeah, much like Iraq I suppose. The Western Powers seem outstanding at breaking things...but fail somewhere in the process for fixing them afterward. After all, 'better nations' for the "people" have been the supposed reasons why previously stable nations have been turned into free fire war zones that are left to their own devices for the long term, right?

I think people in the future would prefer not having this kind of help, eh?

Well unfortunately this is just disinformation, I don't think in this case it is meant to be though. Fact is we did not break anything. For the first time in their history they were free and could vote for their leaders. Were there problems, of course. The people who are breaking things are the Iranians and other fanatical muslim terrorist groups who do not want democracy to succeed.

Second it is history. You must understand these people have been killing each other based on clan or tribal allegiance since beginning of time. You did not have this under the dictators because they crushed the opposing groups.

No we don't break things. We give them the opportunity, they have to do something with it.

The Bot

This "opportunity" thing? is it like greatness?

Some a born great... some achieve great...some have greatness thrust upon them... etc.

Because in my eyes that is what I see from imperialist mind set of opportunity given from the western world, opportunity thrust upon the less fortunate. Usually for the profit of the ones doing the thrusting, imperialism for lack of a better word.

Call it what you will but I see it as naughty capitalism.
Like saying:
Hey guys, we are gonna build a big canal through your country. Yes it will be messy and yes it will not look anything like it did before we arrived but hey, at least you will have some finance to play with and lots of new farm land available to grow things and sell to us

So yes opportunity maybe... but opportunity for whom?

A foreign policy doesn't need to physically break anything to be damaging. 1 Million Libyans displaced to foreign nations or nearly 2 million Syrians doing the same thing is quite damaging enough as far as I can see it. Our western nations collective foreign policies are not damaging at all and didn't break anything in Libya did they? Or Syria for that matter.

Nope everything is hunky dory, round of applause for the free world.

ofcourse...
name one land that has NOT an civil-war after western intervention
its an western trademark

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Gadaffi was ...a character. A bit kooky and a whole lot 'unique'. However, his people weren't cowering in fear of a civil war or being shot to death just driving to the market through a crossfire

I had a friend from Libya who some years ago was warned not to come home from school - Gadaffi had just had 3 of his friends from school hung and left to hang in the center of town

This is just one account - from just one person

This doesn't take away from the seriousness of anything that led up to or followed Gadaffi's death. What's happening now is no less important if we remember that the man was more than just an eccentric or a kook

The good people of Libya had much to fear from this monster - for a very long time

Wrabbit2000
reply to post by starwarsisreal

 

Yeah, much like Iraq I suppose. The Western Powers seem outstanding at breaking things...but fail somewhere in the process for fixing them afterward. After all, 'better nations' for the "people" have been the supposed reasons why previously stable nations have been turned into free fire war zones that are left to their own devices for the long term, right?

I think people in the future would prefer not having this kind of help, eh?

Assuming that "controlled chaos" wasn't the goal in the first place...
There isn't a better way to make sure that your potential enemy is no longer a threat, than have his country engulfed in chaos and lawlessness. Have different groups fight each-other, and make sure that it's you who have some sort of control over them...divide et impera, my friend...divide et impera!

Though the Romans conquered and ruled the world for the sake of Rome itself, while (I strongly suspect) Washington aims to rule the world for...someone else...

S&F for such a viable & concerned discussion, OP

I'm new here but from what I've seen over the decade and change, is DESTABILIZATION.

I mean what if one of Earth's other superpowers decided a couple years Obama had to go, and took out even his grandchildren (if had any, like Gadafi did)

Would US be experiencing civil war issues within a couple years after their president and key leadership & military neutralized? Yea, most likely!

It's called resistance,to the newly installed, or being installed, puppet regime.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

I hope Libya can find a way through this without breaking up, as the article suggests could happen in time. I believe the Arab Spring has evolved into a real nasty thunderstorm which no one wanted.

Well why did Scooter Libby make that movie through the Hudson Institute with those Coptic Christian? Yes I know they made that video and published it in Egypt through a television talk show to cause protest. But do you think if you published a video that attacked the illegal aliens in California that people on the other side of the US border would not say anything? It is hard to believe that some people love the wars and causing regional conflicts around the world but they do exist.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Figured I would add this to. After all the CIA agent was in Libya. And he sure does look like the Boston Bomber.

Was Tamerlan a CIA operative?

Tamerlan.


CIA agent in Lybia.






He spoke 7 languages they know of. Trained in boxing and martial arts. His uncle was working for CIA to funnel money to Chechnya for anti Russian attacks.

How about the newest attack in Kenya. The Kenya mall attacks? They took a chopper owned by a former politician from Dadaab refugee camp. Not sure if that is the OXFAM or a USAID camp. But it is where they keep doing all the Aids clinical trials using people as Guinea Pigs. And the money problems and fraud have hit all the organizations working there.

www.standardmedia.co.ke...