Mason Compass Symbol Baphomet Symbol When Turned Upside Down?

Saurus
Perhaps I can comment from an English constitution Mason's perspective, which is perhaps different again...

The reason why English Freemasonry does not have a G in the Square and Compasses is because we see it as a substituted symbol. Our ritual states:

"When our ancient Brethren were in the middle chamber of the Temple, their attention was peculiarly drawn to certain Hebrew characters, here depicted by the letter G..."

Therefore, G is an English translation of the original Hebrew symbols, and does not carry weight as a symbol in itself. This does not mean we don't reflect on the meaning of the symbol in the second degree, but we do understand it as a substituted symbol for the original Symbols which were in Hebrew.

As a consequence of this, MuzzleFlash's attempts to explain the world in terms of G, which is merely a substituted translation of the original esoteric Hebrew Symbols, to an English Mason, does seem absurd.

edit on 20/10/2013 by Saurus because: (no reason given)

I would disagree, on multiple counts.

Namely I am not explaining the world in terms of G per se, but instead in all terms that could apply that I haven't seen anyone else say yet to convey such eloquence and simplicity. I was just playing word games, puns and all that for sport.

People too often fall into convention and say the same old same old dry boring gibberish. Time to mix things up and just turn English into a mix of every language we can dig up!

The more views you have to examine something the better your overall scope will become.


About G = God
God = Naught / Sine / Nothing / Void / Emptiness

Therefore it would be more proper to NOT have a G, because the G is Silent and Invisible...
Get it??

SO I agree that it's proper to not have it that way.
I disagree that you think I wasn't that clever.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

“There is one sign which has never changed its meaning anywhere in the civilized world—the Compass and the Square. A sign of the union of the body and soul.”
—Deman Wagstaff, Wagstaff’s Standard Masonry (1922)



“The Compass, as the Symbol of the Heavens, represents the spiritual portion of this double nature of Humanity…and the Square, as the Symbol of the Earth, its material, sensual, and baser portion.” —Albert Pike, Morals & Dogma

So what is this all about then? Yes, it does >.>

If those are the separate meanings of these symbols, what do they make when interlocked? A union of the two opposing forces. That's logic AM...



And is that the real meaning of the symbols or another substitution like everything else is ; Tubal Cain anyone?

VeritasAequitas
So what is this all about then? Yes, it does >.>

Those are two Masons personal opinions of what the symbols mean to them. Muzzleflash posted the exact words used in the Entered Apprentice Degree that explains the Square and Compasses to every candidate.

If those are the separate meanings of these symbols, what do they make when interlocked? A union of the two opposing forces. That's logic AM...

Do us a favor, post a scan from your Masonic ritual cipher or Lodge Monitor that supports what you are saying. That is logic.

that the real meaning of the symbols or another substitution like everything else is ; Tubal Cain anyone?

If you say so. Considering I have explained these symbols to candidates in Lodge I think I will lean towards my explanation as the correct one.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


Doesn't that defeat the point of being non-dogmatic?

Where do you think those Masons learned the meanings? Way before you were likely born, which begs the question. Was the interpretation posted merely a substitution of the 'truth' much like everything else has been substituted?

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

Those are two Masons personal opinions of what the symbols mean to them. Muzzleflash posted the exact words used in the Entered Apprentice Degree that explains the Square and Compasses to every candidate.

“There is one sign which has never changed its meaning anywhere in the civilized world—the Compass and the Square. A sign of the union of the body and soul.”
—Deman Wagstaff, Wagstaff’s Standard Masonry (1922)

This doesn't sound very much like an opinion if you ask me...That sounds like a statement of fact.

Not to mention that this precedes the interpretation that was posted by Muzzleflash by about 80 years... I tend to believe the farther back you go in Freemasonry, the closer you get to it's true core.

“…the compasses stand for…the spiritual side of man, while the square appertains to the material world…the square represents matter. In the case of the compasses… they represent…the Spiritual.”
—J. S. Ward, Interpretation of Our Masonic Symbols

Yet Masons, be all like "It's only coincidence."

Yeah, right... There is no such thing as coincidence according to the pronunciation of occult/universal law.

VeritasAequitas
Doesn't that defeat the point of being non-dogmatic?

No it does not. All Masons are free to have their own opinion of the symbols and whether thet have a deeper meaning but they are all clearly explained in the Degrees.

Where do you think those Masons learned the meanings? Way before you were likely born, which begs the question. Was the interpretation posted merely a substitution of the 'truth' much like everything else has been substituted?

What does my, or anyone else's age have to do with anything? The continuity of Masonry and these symbols has not changed. The Square and Compasses, from their earliest usage, are described as: the Square teaches us to square our actions by the square of Virtue and Morality and the Compasses to circumscribe our desires and keep our passions within due bounds with all mankind, especially the Brethren.

There is no 'substituted' truth and frankly I do not understand why you need to interject your opinion about something you obviously have not learned.

reply to post by VeritasAequitas


So merge the opposites.
Geometry merged with God.

Tubal Cain is a Tube shaped Can (snake).

The DiamondBack bites his own Ankle and serves as the Anchor for All.

I learned this at Angkor Wat:

The Anchor of Anger keepin us stuck on the lower plane.

Use your Watts and make like an Atlas rocket, and be a real Peacemaker.
Apollo rides with Saturn yo that's how Iraq It with that Eye Roc.

Repost mistake. Meant to edit. Phones....

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

There is no 'substituted' truth and frankly I do not understand why you need to interject your opinion about something you obviously have not learned.

These are not my opinions, but the opinions of learned masons...I'm sorry if they seem inconvenient to you...That's not my problem though.

VeritasAequitas
These are not my opinions, but the opinions of learned masons...I'm sorry if they seem inconvenient to you...That's not my problem though.

And are still opinions none the less. What would really be inconvenient for me is when you post a scan from your ritual cipher or monitor that backs up what you are saying. I will not hold my breath however.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


I will repost this incase you missed my edit...

“…the compasses stand for…the spiritual side of man, while the square appertains to the material world…the square represents matter. In the case of the compasses… they represent…the Spiritual.”
—J. S. Ward, Interpretation of Our Masonic Symbols

Didn't J.S.M Ward write the (some) handbooks for the three degrees?

Why yes, he did. Because I own them. Of course, I guess it's all coincidence three notable masons happen to have the same opinion of what these symbols mean....

VeritasAequitas
I will repost this incase you missed my edit...

“…the compasses stand for…the spiritual side of man, while the square appertains to the material world…the square represents matter. In the case of the compasses… they represent…the Spiritual.”
—J. S. Ward, Interpretation of Our Masonic Symbols

Let me help you. Notice the bold portion? The explanation is posted above.

Didn't J.S.M Ward write the (some) handbooks for the three degrees?

Not in my state and we use one of, if not the oldest, rituals in the country.

Why yes, he did. Because I own them. Of course, I guess it's all coincidence three notable masons happen to have the same opinion of what these symbols mean....

They are free to have any opinion they like. The explanation in the Degrees is what was posted and is exactly what is taught in the ritual.

The fact that you use the personal writings of Masons to try and make a point to another Mason about ritual and what takes place in the lodge makes you just as culpable to the dishonest tactics that all the anti-Masons employ. All of the Masons in the United States posting in this forum have had these two symbols explained with almost the exact words I posted above. If you doubt me than ask them, or better yet, post a scan from a ritual cipher or monitor that proves otherwise.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


Wow I actually didn't know I posted exact words.

I spoke it all from the Heart my Kore.

I figured it out by utilizing the scientific method from square one.

Thats Sweet and Kosher.
Thanks for the heads up on the Real Dill.
A Pickle that we all Relish.

VeritasAequitas

These are not my opinions, but the opinions of learned masons...I'm sorry if they seem inconvenient to you...That's not my problem though.

I don't think you quite understand how Freemasonry works...

All symbols are explained superficially, but it is up to every Mason to find the true or deeper meaning of each symbol for himself.

I, too, am a learned Mason, but, like AugustusMasonicus, I do not agree with the opinion of Deman Wagstaff. Just because he presents his opinion as fact, that certainly doesn't mean it is fact. Rather, if he presents an opinion as fact, it is less likely to be true.

As Andre Gide: "Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it."

reply to post by VeritasAequitas


Google Books - An Interpretation of Our Masonic Symbols

Here is the description...

This book is an attempt to interpret the meaning of those dumb, silent emblems that lie around us in the Lodge. I shall concentrate my attention of such objects as the Ashlars, the officers' jewels, and so forth. The purpose of this works is to give a scientific explanation of the meaning of these symbols, based on the recognized laws of symbology and on the age-old interpretation of them. Contents: The Square Master's Squares or Levels; Level and Plum-rule; The Collar; Other Officers' Emblems; Square and Compasses; Point Within a Circle; Pentacle and the Letter "G"; Apron; Altar; Tau and Latin Cross; Three Ashlars: Rough, Perfect, and Perpend; Columns of Master, S.W., and J.W.; Carpet and its Tassels; Emblems of Mortality; Lodge; Consecration of a Lodge.

VeritasAequitas

This book is an attempt to interpret the meaning of those dumb, silent emblems that lie around us in the Lodge.

If he considers the emblems dumb, he has no clue what they are really about, does he?

reply to post by Saurus

All symbols are explained superficially, but it is up to every Mason to find the true or deeper meaning of each symbol for himself.

What do you think I meant earlier about substituted 'truths'? Is it possible that the explanation given in your masonic ritual is nothing but an exoteric explanation, while the true esoteric meaning is to be interpreted as these three masons have?

You know for a society that is remarkably non-dogmatic, you guys sure are attempting to forcefully impose a 'one and only' interpretation of these symbols...

VeritasAequitas
Google Books - An Interpretation of Our Masonic Symbols

Did you notice the name of the book includes the word Interpretation?

Post a ritual cipher or monitor.

reply to post by Saurus


I don't think he means dumb in that context, but in the context of how 'dumb' was used to describe people that were mute...

Saurus
If he considers the emblems dumb, he has no clue what they are really about, does he?

Agreed. The beauty of the symbols is the simplicity of their meaning as explained in the Degrees.