how reagan ruined the economy with reagan-nomics, or greed unleashed

crimvelvet
reply to post by crankyoldman

 

Stunning. Where did you get that idea? Taxes punish the greedy?

He completely missed the point that taxes are on WAGES and WAGES are earned by WORKERS.

The elite don't get taxed because they do not earn salaries like the rest of us. International corporations can play accounting games so the 'Profit' is taxed where ever the heck they please. (I worked for one who shifted all USA income out of country and never paid a dime in US tax.)

I once had a great chart on corporate excise tax (import tariffs) combined with individual tax but I lost it. So here is the information in a couple of charts. (From WIKI Commons)
Excise taxes as a share of federal revenues 1950 - 2007 it plummets. The chart is from WIKI-Excise Taxes

Import duties have the other uses such as leveling the playing field so cheap imports made in countries without pollution controls, regulations and with 'slave labor' do not drive out local corporations. Getting rid of 'Protective Tariffs' was a prime goal of the World Trade Organization and why our jobs left the country never to return. It allowed the international corporations to continue charging Americans high prices for cheaply made foreign products, and bankrupt small business competition that was too small to go overseas. A real win-win for the Global Elite.

FOUND IT! Anyone talking about taxes should look at this chart.

Federal receipts by source as share of total receipts (1950-2010). Individual income taxes (blue), payroll taxes/FICA (green), corporate income taxes (red), excise taxes (purple), estate and gift taxes (light blue), other receipts (orange). en.wikipedia.org...

It shows corporate taxes and excise tax has dropped like a rock while Payroll Taxes have skyrocketed.

Do not believe that Corporations pay half of the payroll taxes. They don't. That is just a 'polite fiction' to make the sheeple happy. Corporations consider it part of your 'Pay Package' along with health benefits, paid vacation and any other goodies. You get fired and that liability vanishes.

Outstanding post.

That chart is as depressing as it is illuminating.

The horror of the payroll tax is that you can't avoid it even if you want. So to work you pay for the privilege, and, if you want to work without paying for the privilege via the "pay to play" scheme, you can't work. But, if corporation scumbag wants to import and sell plastic hello kitty dolls, which only wind up in landfills, they get to do so tax free.

Now, we'll all be paying another "tax" described as fee, which isn't a tax, but we were told was a voluntary fee, which is an insurance premium, which doesn't cover much because the deductible is too high, which is not deductible.

FlyersFan

stormson
the tax rate for the top. in 1946 it was 91%. it was 50% when reagan took office. 8 years later it was just 28%.

GOOD! The lower the taxes, the better. The government has NO RIGHT to steal money from Americans. We are already over taxed. There is no reason for the taxes to be as high as they are. If the government would spend more wisely, we wouldnt' be paying the taxes that we do today.

taxes serve two purposes. one is to fund the gov, the other is to place checks on greed.

'Place checks on greed'???? Are you kidding???

1 - The people running government in DC are the greedy ones. They want more and more money to fund their stupid irrelevant projects and to fund their rich lifestyles.

2 - Your statement about 'placing checks on greed' is INVASIVE. It's you pushing your version of morals on others. The left wing complains about the right wing pushing their morals on others when the right tries to abolish abortion in the USA .. but then you people turn around and do the same damn thing with money and taxes. Keep your version 'morals' to yourself and don't try to invade my space with it.

the only way for the gov to get money is by taxes,

That's not true. If the government would SPEND MORE WISELY and not waste money, it would have plenty of money and wouldn't be trying to steal more of ours to fund it. And if the government invested wisely it wouldn't need any money from us at all. And if the government stopped giving away our money to foreign governments in 'aid', they'd have plenty to keep things moving along just fine.

yet you are the same people that say a fry cook shouldnt make living wage because it takes from profits.

Separate issue. Not all wages are supposed to be 'living wages'. A fry cook is a dime a dozen and easily replaced... but an educated professional like a doctor or engineer has more skills and knowledge, is harder to find, and is therefore worth more. Simple economics.

just as i believe in progressive taxation, i believe in progressive income.

I believe in what a free market can support ... not a forced communist ideal. Free market works. Invasive government intervention like a fored 'progressive income' will fail every time because the government is incapable of running anything correctly. Obamacare is a perfect example of the buffoonery of big government.

if what you say is true, where are the facts to back you up?

i posted 3 or 4 concrete examples.

you posted opinion. please explain the wage gap?
im not talking educated pros like doctors or engineers, but ceos that make millions while their workers are on foodstamps. most only have a bachelors degree.

gov cant run anything? have you seen the post office, or military?

btw, theres no such thing as the "free market". however, if you want the gov out of business, get business out of the gov.

or you can continue to support your masters. "the king is mandated by god to rule! the rich are entitled to treat us serfs as inferiour, because we are! why else are they better than us and have more wealth?"

Cabin
So you are saying greed is good?

One person's greed is another persons ambition. You can not legislate morality.
Everyone has a different compass as to what is moral and what isn't.
You have no right to push your morality or your 'values' on others.
Just like they don't have a right to push their morality or 'values' on you.

stormson
if what you say is true, where are the facts to back you up?

COMMON SENSE .... spend more wisely ... save money ... then you need less taxes.
The government is notorious for wasting money. You should know this basic truth by now.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Flyers,

I think you're forgetting that there is such a thing as efficient government. And when they use tax money in the proper ways, for the proper reasons, it's no longer 'stealing' from Americans.

Besides, if you removed the income tax for example, the Fed would need to find another source of revenue to replace it, less they start cutting their vastly over bloated agencies like the DOD.

I agree that as it stands, shrink and starve them until these thieves are replaced with people willing to pass laws that don't benefit them, but benefit the people.

But the idea that all government is crap, all the time is a bit of a generalization.

~Tenth

FlyersFan
You have no right to push your morality or your 'values' on others.
Just like they don't have a right to push their morality or 'values' on you.

So if I think rape and murder moral then I should go out and do it? Why should people force there morality on me sayings its wrong?


My point being at some point morality and ethics need to be enforced somewere down the line.

This im my opinion should be were your morals or lack of could negatively effcet someone else.


IE Smokers should be free too smoke. Thats there right and there health to put at risk. But they should not be free to smoke next to me on a train as there choice is forced onto me.

Those in the top 1% cant be trusted not to force there "morals" or lack of on the 99% under them and that were laws are needed.

A banker should be free to earn a million dollers a year. But that banker should not be allowed to gamble peoples money on high risk endeavers without the invester prermission or make high risk choices that could cost thousands of jobs.

A business owner should be able to earn a high wage but not at the expense of the empolyees under them.

A buisness should have alot of freedom BUT not at the expense of the enivroment around them.

A good economic system should:
1) have high social mobility and create plenty of opotunity for hard working and intelligent people at all social levels
2) Have a constant flow of money
3) Limit the power those at the top have over those at the bottom
4) Minimise human suffering.
5) Be safe for people and the nviroment.

reply to post by tothetenthpower

... which is why I said that if they were more efficient, and if they wouldn't waste money
they wouldn't need to raise taxes. And heck .. if they would INVEST correctly, they might
not need taxes at all.

FlyersFan

Cabin
So you are saying greed is good?

One person's greed is another persons ambition. You can not legislate morality.
Everyone has a different compass as to what is moral and what isn't.
You have no right to push your morality or your 'values' on others.
Just like they don't have a right to push their morality or 'values' on you.

yes, you can legislate morality.

cant murder people. thats a moral judgement.

cant marry more than one person. thats a moral judgement.

FlyersFan

stormson
if what you say is true, where are the facts to back you up?

COMMON SENSE .... spend more wisely ... save money ... then you need less taxes.
The government is notorious for wasting money. You should know this basic truth by now.

if common sense were so common, more people would have it.

so you have no facts?

since reagan, how have things improved for the common man?
ive shown they havent, in fact things have gotten worse.
show me different. how have things gotten better?

crazyewok
So if I think rape and murder moral then I should go out and do it? Why should people force there morality on me sayings its wrong?

That's different. There are rules in which a civilized society needs to follow in order to remain effective and cohesive. Putting an arbitrary cap on salaries or on how much a person can earn is nothing more than forcing your morality or values on another person and that's VERY different then murder or rape. If you disagree .. then abortion should be illegal and the far right should be allowed to impose their morals and values on everyone because if it's good for one side of the political spectrum, then it's good for the other side.

My point being at some point morality and ethics need to be enforced somewere down the line.

No. Simply because, people can't agree on what is moral and ethical and a lot of what people think is moral and ethical is really just that person being invasive into the other persons life. Next thing you know, homosexuality will be illegal again because some yutz decides that it's moral and ethical for society to disallow homosexuality.

A banker should be free to earn a million dollers a year. But that banker should not be allowed to gamble peoples money on high risk endeavers without the invester prermission or make high risk choices that could cost thousands of jobs.

A banker who earns a million dollars a year can do whatever the hell he wants with the money. It's his money. No one has a right to tell him what he can do with his earnings. If A BANK earns a million dollars, they have every right to invest it as they see fit. If the investors don't like how the bank is investing, then they can take their money out and go elsewhere. It's called free market capitalism.

Oh ... and as for the 'high risk choices' ... that's the nature of investment. Nothing is promised. Nothing is 'a sure thing'.

A business owner should be able to earn a high wage but not at the expense of the empolyees under them.

A business owner should be able to earn as much as he can ... it's his freak'n business.
And if the workers don't like being employed by him ... they can leave.
It's called free market capitalism.

reply to post by FlyersFan

.. which is why I said that if they were more efficient, and if they wouldn't waste money
they wouldn't need to raise taxes.

But they still would NEED the taxes in the end right? They need revenue if they are going to provide essential services, even if they are doing it correctly.

if they would INVEST correctly, they might not need taxes at all.

THE LAST thing I want is my government using the markets to invest my tax dollars or any dollars of my country. The financial games that they play have led to this economic issue we have.

Investment should be done in American companies that promote growth and innovation and discourages the opposite.

~Tenth

stormson
so you have no facts?

It's called USING YOUR BRAIN. If the government didn't spend so recklessly, they would have more money. If you can't understand something that simple, then there is no speaking with you.

If you have ten dollars in your wallet and you go out and spend it on crap .. then all you have is crap and no money. If you have ten dollars in your wallet and instead of spending it on crap ... you keep it in your wallet for when you need it, then you will not have wasted it and you won't need to go to the ATM to take more money out. DUH.

COMMON SENSE. OUT.

tothetenthpower
But they still would NEED the taxes in the end right?

Sure. The original point was that people said higher taxes = good for America. My point was that taxes are high enough and BETTER SPENDING HABITS would be good for America. That makes sense, doesn't it???

FlyersFan

stormson
so you have no facts?

It's called USING YOUR BRAIN. If the government didn't spend so recklessly, they would have more money. If you can't understand something that simple, then there is no speaking with you.

If you have ten dollars in your wallet and you go out and spend it on crap .. then all you have is crap and no money. If you have ten dollars in your wallet and instead of spending it on crap ... you keep it in your wallet for when you need it, then you will not have wasted it and you won't need to go to the ATM to take more money out. DUH.

COMMON SENSE. OUT.

so you have no facts?

i just want an example of how things have gotten better for the common man since reaganomics.
you cant provide that.

i win.

FlyersFan

tothetenthpower
But they still would NEED the taxes in the end right?

Sure. The original point was that people said higher taxes = good for America. My point was that taxes are high enough and BETTER SPENDING HABITS would be good for America. That makes sense, doesn't it???

better spending would be good. no doubt.

higher taxes would also be good.

btw, our taxes are at an all time low, so how is it too much?

reply to post by FlyersFan


Yup, that makes perfect sense, but you still need to re-adjust and modify the tax code to make the taxes fairer in the end. Otherwise it's still the bottom 90 supporting the top 10, and that's not right.

~Tenth

reply to post by tothetenthpower

I have always favored a flat income tax. Same percent for everyone .. no matter what.
And no loopholes for corporate gains or investment gains.
The more people get to keep their own money, the better for the economy
AND it's more 'morally correct' (for a gov't to waste tax money is immoral IMHO).

stormson
i just want an example of how things have gotten better for the common man since reaganomics.

Reaganomics isn't what is going on with the USA at this time. So that's impossible.

i win.

Only in your noob mind lil' buddy. But have fun thinking that ...

FlyersFan
reply to post by tothetenthpower

 

I have always favored a flat income tax. Same percent for everyone .. no matter what.
And no loopholes for corporate gains or investment gains.
The more people get to keep their own money, the better for the economy
AND it's more 'morally correct' (for a gov't to waste tax money is immoral IMHO).

that right there shows you have no clue.

a flat tax is a burden on the poor.

but hey, the rich will take care of you. the rich love you. give them more money.

you still have to show me how reaganomics has helped the common person, btw.

stormson
btw, our taxes are at an all time low, so how is it too much?

Anything above an average of 19.5% is irrelevant.

Remove all loopholes...and I mean all loopholes.

Declare any and all incomes as a single income. None of this capital gains sheltering BS.

Set progressive tax rate so that average tax rate (whole population) is 19.5%. Feel free to progress this as wanted, but it would be advised to start with as low as possible for low income, and adjust upper income tax rates to suit.

Apply to all persons and business' equally.

Enjoy.