Is it Time for Two America's?

xstealth
should have let it happen the first time, and we wouldnt be in this mess now.

Liberals and Conservatives can't live together. One loves big government, one loves freedom.

But the freedom isn't legitimate by definition and reality in USA.. perhaps freedom 1870-1920's.

When Foreign interests are allowed to meddle in our affairs, invest in US corps, and then influence politicians.. we are NOT free.

Can you grow, eat, smoke, drink what you choose?

Can you agree to do what you want with your OWN body with another person?

Can you head west and stake a claim for free land, grow what you choose, eat what you choose, NEVER PAY TAX or risk LOSING YOUR FARM unless under a loan.?

Heck in some states you can't even collect rain water ffs! and the sad part is this is something every cop in those states should flex that union power and speak against!

And in Oregon you can get a ticket for not properly using a bicycle seat..

Free? who? where? how?

xstealth
should have let it happen the first time, and we wouldnt be in this mess now.

Liberals and Conservatives can't live together. One loves big government, one loves freedom.

Yeah totally agree. I have spent much time wondering if things wouldn't have been much better for everyone if the civil war had been won by the south. Who knows the way things are going it could happen again.

Absolutely not. It's time for ONE America. Which we don't have now.

Why suggest furthering the gap of correspondence and problem solving when we, as a country, have a hard time being present on the same page politically as it is. Why not procure forming unity.
We need someone who's thinking on terms of the cup being half full rather than empty.

reply to post by Bassago


the south would of been BOOMING! And the repatriation of Africans home would have been carried out in a much better fashion than Liberia.. Jefferson Davis had planned to not only take people to their home, but also arrange for guides to lead them to their tribes..

The old saying the Civil War was all about slavery is TRUE..

EVERYONE BECAME A SLAVE

the was a large movement establishing in north central Tennessee well before the civil war. And many were educating black children at risk.

When people read what the leaders of both sides wrote, and the Generals, it sends goosebumps.. The massive shaft job lie we were all fed.

And btw, this is EXACTLY why the country was FLOODED with immigrants post civil war.

TONS of FOREIGNERS CAME between 1870-1890.. TONS!... why?

so as to dilute the nation's sentiment for a rematch..

HanzHenry

xstealth
should have let it happen the first time, and we wouldnt be in this mess now.

Liberals and Conservatives can't live together. One loves big government, one loves freedom.

But the freedom isn't legitimate by definition and reality in USA.. perhaps freedom 1870-1920's.

Heck in some states you can't even collect rain water ffs! and the sad part is this is something every cop in those states should flex that union power and speak against!

And in Oregon you can get a ticket for not properly using a bicycle seat..

Free? who? where? how?

Oregon would not fall under the category of conservative. Long time ago it was a good place but no more. That's what progressive ideas get you. This is not to say conservative states are better but you won't get a "bicycle seat" ticket in Texas.

And that's the point, if a majority of people want a nanny state environment they should be able to have it. For people who despise that idea they should have their own option.

unb3k44n7
Absolutely not. It's time for ONE America. Which we don't have now.

Why suggest furthering the gap of correspondence and problem solving when we, as a country, have a hard time being present on the same page politically as it is. Why not procure forming unity.
We need someone who's thinking on terms of the cup being half full rather than empty.

You think a country that has been flooded with people here for what they can get ONLY and not at all here for the betterment of AMERICA is worth saving?

Not in a million years! the damage is done.. Africans, Muslims and Hispanics overwhelmed our lands and HATE us in the OPEN.. indignantly!! .. To them it is dog eat dog.. their family vs. YOURS!!

and until America forms picket lines and says NO MORE SCABS!!.. the quality of life will sink to JUST as LOW as the third world they come from!! IT WON'T STOP !!

IT WONT STOP!!.. and the illegal immigrant anchor babies GET MANY ADVANTAGES OVER AMERICAN KIDS...
Not including AFFIRMATIVE ACTION COLLEGE AND JOB ADVANTAGES!!!.......that alone.. that alone is more than too much to bear!!

HanzHenry

xstealth
should have let it happen the first time, and we wouldnt be in this mess now.

Liberals and Conservatives can't live together. One loves big government, one loves freedom.

But the freedom isn't legitimate by definition and reality in USA.. perhaps freedom 1870-1920's.

When Foreign interests are allowed to meddle in our affairs, invest in US corps, and then influence politicians.. we are NOT free.

Can you grow, eat, smoke, drink what you choose?

Can you agree to do what you want with your OWN body with another person?

Can you head west and stake a claim for free land, grow what you choose, eat what you choose, NEVER PAY TAX or risk LOSING YOUR FARM unless under a loan.?

Heck in some states you can't even collect rain water ffs! and the sad part is this is something every cop in those states should flex that union power and speak against!

And in Oregon you can get a ticket for not properly using a bicycle seat..

Free? who? where? how?

What you listed were freedoms that are being taken away by both Democrats and Republicans, I'm not sure if you know that or not - but yes, freedom is very very hard to find.

I think Democrats are more dangerous at the moment, because they have locked down the right to think critically against them under the pretense of political correctness, "tolerance," "science," etc. - it all moves around to be honest, but the main idea is no one is allowed to be critical of them.

It is an absolutely terrible idea to lock-down communication, because it does NOT lock-down thought. This means that people are going to take those thoughts into the shadows and radicalize. Meanwhile, the Democrats will radicalize.

The situation we have here is a direct result of the Democrats not allowing open discussion and dehumanizing their opponents.

----------

Do I feel safe out in public? Not a chance. My views are centrist and are likely to infuriate anyone on either side because they are so damn radicalized.

I guess I will finish by saying, we don't need two countries, what we need is for both sides to talk to each other because they are both really annoying right now and need to simmer down and become more moderate. However, the O.P. brings up a good point in general by asking.

reply to post by Bassago


yeah but in Texas a guy can go to real prison for a plant, one that is actually praised in the bible..

And Texas has many bible followers.. irony, lol

So what happens to South America in this plan of yours?

MysticPearl
So what happens to South America in this plan of yours?

lol I was waiting for that. Touche`

South America has it's own issues and they have to deal with it themselves. We in the US are up to are a$$ in alligators at the moment.

... but if you leave a name and number we'll get back to you as soon as we finished burning our own house down. beep.

reply to post by HanzHenry




Let's take a journey to the early 1500's for a minute when Europeans stared colonizing what is now America. The land was inhabited before they got here by native various native tribes, if you want to make claims you can say they were here first and Europeans took over the land that was rightfully theirs.
This is how history and life works see, people immigrate and emigrate to other regions of the planet for various reasons all through history, it's happened before, it's happening now, and it will continue to happen until life ceases.

We are all human beings, and with you and others like yourself complaining about other human beings who you view as undeserving of care, instead of caring for them like human beings continues, you're not only making the inevitable mentally harder on yourself and causing pain within yourself on your own terms, you are provoking, seeding, and spreading this hate and intolerance on the terms of not not only yourself, but on everyone else sharing this planet with you. .

I think it is too much to bare exposing others to listen to your cold voice chalk full of intolerant ranting towards other fellow human beings because you do not approve of their presence around you.

if a majority of people want a nanny state environment they should be able to have it

Yes, that is a related point. The Preamble to the constitution states that the people should be able to form whatever type of government they want, but republicans have browbeaten everyone to believe the lie that the founding fathers wanted a capitalistic, corporate hellhole that we have now. People with money get to do whatever the hell they want to everyone else and call it spreading freedom...

But that's a separate issue. It would be fantastic to split into two countries, but as I showed earlier, it wouldn't work. Three would be better ideologically, but logistically it wouldn't work, especially the way the moderates and liberals are spread around, and republicans in the blue states don't really want to live in the Red hell states like Kentucky anyways.

unb3k44n7
reply to post by HanzHenry

 

I think it is too much to bare exposing others to listen to your cold voice chalk full of intolerant ranting towards other fellow human beings because you do not approve of their presence around you.

This is exactly why I created this thread. See I don't believe there is any middle ground here. You disagree with HanzHenry almost vehemently. People do not want to be around other people who do this and they certainly won't change their fundamental beliefs with statements like that.

You cannot berate people into believing as you do. Certainly they can be crushed and forced into compliance but to me that is evil. I'm leaning to the belief we need two separate America's even though it would be almost impossible to create.

Liberal vs. conservative?? It is too confusing. Both parties seem to be both at once. Which ideology stands for authoritarianism and which is for personal autonomy? I am for minding my own business but there seem to be gangs of people that want to do that for me, and they include both Democrats and Republicans, liberals and conservatives.

I'm not sure there is any hope left but maybe if we have two Americas, one where people mind their own business and the other where the people mind everyone else's business. Crimes of violence, force, theft or confiscation, and coercion would be minding other people's business just like we have now and what the majority seems to prefer. Those who truly want personal autonomy would likely all fit inside one medium-sized state so should be able to accommodate them easily enough. Could we trust the federal government to not mind their business for them?

Somehow I don't think that would work. The majority of Americans seem to want to be told what to do and tell others what to do with damn few who are satisfied to act solely in their own behalf. If I hadn't already given up on it and moved to another country already I would just be waiting for the collapse of society and plunge into anarchy. That needn't be a bad word. It sounds like near perfect government to me. What do we need government to do for us anyhow?

A true community would look out for itself when people can feel they are a part of it. People take great pride in working for the betterment of their community. But in the absence of true freedom there is no true community so we must then labor for the demands of society. Once upon a time when I was much younger we had a sense of community, and we also had a sense of freedom and privacy. Community disappeared when our freedoms went away. As far as I was concerned America went away along with it leaving only an oppressive United States.

reply to post by Bassago


First and foremost, I never told him to believe as I do. He stated his opinion and feelings on the matter as did I.

Secondly, the same can be said about people not wanting to be around people who "do that", as such people might not want to be around people who press for intolerance.

It is not impossible for us to get along, but it's a struggle when all you want to do is hate and rant instead of fix a problem with open arms, understanding, care and civility. It sounds like a mushy concept, but really it's not, it's a human concept. Let's not fully lose our humanity into greed and hate, let's progress above that.

damn few who are satisfied to act solely in their own behalf

Only a very few humans can survive on their own. Most people must live in groups to survive, so obviously some decisions will be made as a group. It's part of being human. It's no wonder that it's the most inhuman people that want to be free from obligations to society (while taking full advantage of them when they can).

How would a nanny state even exist in the first place ?

It would start off with a few doing the work and the many being nanny'd.

How long would it last ?

[ Hey wait a minute ]

xuenchen
How would a nanny state even exist in the first place ?

It would start off with a few doing the work and the many being nanny'd.

How long would it last ?

[ Hey wait a minute ]

Perhaps you don't have much more than a minute.

Would you work for and put in an effort for something you felt a part of? What about if you were being nagged, nanny'd, and goaded into conforming to societal demands wouldn't you feel that in itself was largely fulfilling your obligation?

Bring back a sense of freedom and pride if you wish to see people motivated into making it a better place for all. Otherwise we labor, pay our taxes, and go through the motions necessary to make it another day. It doesn't have to be that way, but somebody decided it did.

HanzHenry

Riffrafter
reply to post by Bassago

 

Also, what do we do about location? Can't have two America's if GOP's and DEM's live right across the street from each other.

How would it be implemented?

dems get-- Ca, Ny, Fla, Va, Md, Nc, Sc, Ct, Ri, Tx, Nm, Az, Hi, and Nv.

gop gets -- Ak, and the rest..

Done.

Of course you have it entirely wrong.

There will be two Americas, but it will not be as you and some others wish it to be.

Because the division will be "those who disagree with the current government" and "those who agree"....and of course these two sides will change ANY TIME someone else gets voted in office.

Let's just divide the country, say, West + East.

At some time, all those on the "West" side are the ones who are not disagreeing, so let's shove all those who did NOT vote correctly into the Western part of the US.

Four years later, those people may be the ones with the "correct opinion", and the others are the ones who disagree. We can lock those away then...or at least take measures so they cannot cross borders into the other section.

Since who is "correct" can always change I recommend some sort of militia type armed police which can always enforce that those with the correct opinion stay on their side and don't mingle with the others.

And of course there must be strict laws enforced to determine those who do not have the correct view, otherwise the problem may occur that some people erronously get locked into the wrong part of the country. For example, armed militia could do mandatory and random tests on the street to ask people questionaires, such as religious views, their stance on public health care etc...and then use the answers to select out those with the incorrect answers so they can be detained in the appropriate sector of the nation.

All in all, a wonderful idea which should work pretty well.

Bassago
This topic of division and the dysfunctional American political system has been discussed and thrashed here on ATS until it's whimpering. That is not the point of this thread. What I would like to discuss is a point made in an article in Der Speigel.

The parties themselves are fomenting an increasingly radicalized culture that deepens political, societal and geographic divisions in the country, argues the newspaper. And finally, there are few politicians in America who are willing or capable of thinking beyond their own electoral constituencies.

Source

My point is that this is exactly what we elect people to do, represent our goals and ideals in Washington. It's obvious to me that the conservatives and the progressives will never agree on much. Even here on ATS people almost come to blows over the defense of their ideology. Maybe it is time we said it's over, we'll never agree so let's part ways. Maybe it's time for two America's.

When I read "WE Americans need our country back" as I did today on CNN.....then it also becomes clear where the problem is.

Did NOT the last election run according to democratic principles?

Are "WE Americans" those who voted for Romney...and the others are now all enemies of the state?
All liberals and lefties NOT Americans? If so...where is Democracy?

Who is "WE"? All those who did NOT vote for Obama?

You see there is something entirely, entirely not right with that country and all it took is to read this one comment today on CNN.

In asking for a divide of the country (even if just jokenly, I am not entirely sure there)..and hearing opinion like "WE need our America back"....is nothing else but steps towards a dictatorship where only one opinion is tolerated. You can as well pack your luggage and go to North Korea if you cannot tolerate that a number of people have other opinions. You have no place in America if this is the way you think and if you believe there is only ONE "correct" view on things.