Possibility of nuclear chain reaction if rods get too close together in pool

reply to post by greencmp


I think we can both speculate regarding the exact outcome, but you must admit that an explosive event is both possible and that in fact it has already happened from either hydrogen build up or from steam build up. Fuel material was found 1+km from the plant and there were multiple large explosions in the first 30 days after 3/11.

Angry isn't strong enough to describe how I feel about all the fish in the Pacific being irradiated. I want to know what will make the Japanese citizens angry enough to quit hiding behind an incompetent and insolvent corporation while the world gets poisoned. Meanwhile, keep counting on that wind to take your poison somewhere else.

reply to post by greencmp


www.youtube.com...

examples of explosions. Hydrogen or steam or thermal, you be the judge.
www.youtube.com...

reply to post by InverseLookingGlass

Angry isn't strong enough to describe how I feel about all the fish in the Pacific being irradiated.

Something being irradiated does not make it radioactive. Lots of food items are now irradiated, but they are not radioactive. If a fish ingests a radioactive particle, it becomes contaminated, but that particle will be excreted within a short time, but, the amount of 'nasty' radio active particles emitted from Fuku only lasted a few days, while the long lived radio active particles are mostly of no danger at all. There were 4.5 kilograms of Uranium emited from FUKU by last estimates, but the ocean already contains 4.5 BILLION kilograms of Uranium, so what's the big deal? There were only a few grams of some of the more radioactive elements released, so spread throughout the world, it is again absolutely nothing. Eating a fish with a few atoms of radioactive material in it would give you less exposure than an airport full body security scanner, and people still go through them by the millions. You think they are all going to get cancer? The airlines would all be sued out of business. Hmmm, that gives me an idea...

InverseLookingGlass
reply to post by greencmp

 

I think we can both speculate regarding the exact outcome, but you must admit that an explosive event is both possible and that in fact it has already happened from either hydrogen build up or from steam build up. Fuel material was found 1+km from the plant and there were multiple large explosions in the first 30 days after 3/11.

Angry isn't strong enough to describe how I feel about all the fish in the Pacific being irradiated. I want to know what will make the Japanese citizens angry enough to quit hiding behind an incompetent and insolvent corporation while the world gets poisoned. Meanwhile, keep counting on that wind to take your poison somewhere else.

You get explosions when you contain energy, the core is not contained (that is in fact the problem) in a vessel. Essentially, the core is exposed to the air or could be if the water supply is not maintained.

What the article is talking about is the possibility of excursion which is a temporary uncontrolled criticality that is self-correcting because the increased temperature produces expansion and returns the material to subcritical. It is not good, do not mistake my meaning. Lots and lots of radiation. Bad, bad radiation.

I just want to reassure you that the 'worst-case' scenario of an actual supercritical detonation is actually impossible, not just unlikely. It is very hard to get a supercritical reaction to happen and you have to mean to do it.

tracehd1

MariaLida
Report: Fukushima radioactive plume will continue to hit shores of U.S. and Canada for many decades — Impossible to remove molten cores for hundreds of years, if ever

Published: September 15th, 2013 at 12:34 pm ET

[...] Scientific estimates predict that the radioactive plume travelling east across the Pacific will likely hit the shores of Oregon, Washington State and Canada early next year. California will probably be impacted later that year. Because the ongoing flow of water from the reactor site will be virtually impossible to stop, a radioactive plume will continue to migrate across the Pacific affecting Hawaii, North America, South America and eventually Australia for many decades. [...]

As I contemplate the future at Fukushima, it seems that the escape of radiation is virtually unstoppable. The levels of radiation in buildings 1, 2 and 3 are now so high that no human can enter or get close to the molten cores. It will therefore be impossible to remove these cores for hundreds of years if ever. [...]

[...] the EPA should immediately start monitoring the fish routinely caught off the west coast and it must also, as a matter of urgency, establish many effective airborne monitors up and down the west coast and across the US continent, so that if there is another large release of radiation it will be effectively measured and the information rapidly passed on to the public. The same holds true for Canada. [...]

enenews.com... ndreds-of-years-if-ever-flow-of-contamination-from-plant-will

I wouldn't trust the EPA to monitor my pimple. If it all possible if the average guy/ armature scientist can some how test the fish ect and let people know whats up... Then we would all know " watz up!!"

Every Person can check their Food Sample for Radioactivity, it is not that difficult,
all you need to do is to keep this Fish frozen until delivery in a dedicated Laboratory,
they defreeze the Sample and put the Fish into a Blende and afterwards into a
Scintillator and after a few Hours you get the Result!

That easy, don't wait for the others, be active and RESPONSIBLE by and for yourself!

But let me tell you that many of us expect too much, the latest Estimations was that
the natural Contamination of a Fish is 4.Times higher than the measurable Radiation
from Fukushima!
(for US Fish)

Give it a Read:

Why can they not bury the rods, like pour dirt or cement on them?

DestroyDestroyDestroy
Why can they not bury the rods, like pour dirt or cement on them?

The Plan is to store the Rods a few more Years under Water until "Re-Processing"
or until they are ready for their final Resting Place (which we have not!)

Cement is no Solution because it is not stable enough,
they would use it only in a Emergency Situation!

When I spent a year in the nuclear industry cadmium was used as a moderator, that was many many years ago, I don't know if Cadmium is still available these days. (I was a goffer at a research reactor).

Boy did we stuff the planet up

question,

As I contemplate the future at Fukushima, it seems that the escape of radiation is virtually unstoppable. The levels of radiation in buildings 1, 2 and 3 are now so high that no human can enter or get close to the molten cores. It will therefore be impossible to remove these cores for hundreds of years if ever. [...]

why hasn't the government, the UN or the World powers demanded that permanent camera's and measurement devices be setup, at each reactor, at the mouth of the damage.. and show live streaming of

if the governments were committed to telling the truth, they have setup monitoring stations live streaming with no middle man so to speak!

reply to post by Agit8dChop


Because the Facility is private Property and Japan is not ruled by me.
(for example, i would do it!)

But the Radiation outside is vey low anyway,
even inside of Daiichi i see mostly under 5.00 Micro-Sievert/ Hour.

reply to post by Human0815


yep,

all those 'private property' statuses should have immediately been revoked and every world government or corporate figure allowed free reign all over the region to try and fix this mess!

reply to post by Agit8dChop


I think you can't imagine the Chaos when suddenly everyone is able to
do their thing in one Place, look even here we are so different
or look when you participate in a Family Gathering for one Day,
two Days or a whole Week!

No, this can't work in F'Shima!

The Japanese are very good in building this Plants and sale a lot of it,
afair. Japan is Nr.2 of selling whole new Plants.

This need Time, Years, Decades or even a whole Century and we should stop
to use our own stupid Time-Measurements because a Week or a Month
mean absolute nothing!

Edit: i forgot to mention that the Japanese Government bought the majority
of the Stocks after 3/11, only 48-49% are in private Hands.

They done this to prevent a Crash and a total Chaos but also to be able
to have the final Word in the Decisions about the next Steps

reply to post by Agit8dChop

why hasn't the government, the UN or the World powers demanded that permanent camera's and measurement devices be setup, at each reactor, at the mouth of the damage.. and show live streaming

They can't show what is going on in there as it would expose the fraud that is taking place. The situation is nowhere near as bad as some would have us believe, and it is the Yakuza who now control things. They will take billions of dollars out of the taxpayers pockets to remediate a problem that doesn't exist. Sure there are higher levels of radiation in some areas but those levels are still very low and have not been shown to cause any illness or death in people or animals exposed to such levels. The UN should have demanded access to the site to see what is really happening, but seeing as the UN are another bunch of corrupt, self serving criminals too, don't expect them to do anything to derail a nice gravy train of profit for their friends in the nuclear scare scam business.

@Human0815

Because the Facility is private Property and Japan is not ruled by me.
(for example, i would do it!)

But the Radiation outside is vey low anyway,
even inside of Daiichi i see mostly under 5.00 Micro-Sievert/ Hour.

I would do it too! 5 MICRO sieverts? I can p more than that!

10 Things You Probably Didn’t Know Were Radioactive
listverse.com...

Anyway, here is a web site run by some very smart young people that should be required reading for anyone who wants to make comments on things nuclear.

WHAT•IS•NUCLEAR?
No-nonsense public education on the use of nuclear energy to help with the energy problem
www.whatisnuclear.com...

Hello all, this is my first post, I have been lurking in the shadows for a few months, I finally had to step out.

This Fukushima situation is very interesting to me and I have spent countless hours researching the disaster as well as radiation myself, however I do not claim to be well versed in any of it. I'm just seeking the truth, which seems to be very elusive regarding this subject (amongst many others).

I just wanted to comment on an argument I see over and over again comparing (naturally occurring) radiation in bananas, X-rays and plane flights to the radiation from Fukushima, or our "background" radiation.

The radiation from Fukushima and other man-made sources (bombs, Chernobyl, unknown releases) can not be compared to bananas or x-rays or plane flights. Our systems are designed to handle, for example, the potassium in bananas (radiation) and we excrete what we consume in a process known as homeostasis. This natural radiation is not harmful to the human body as it has adapted over time to naturally occurring radiation.

A plane flight or x-ray is exposing you to external emitters, which is much different from internal emitters. For example, Fukushima released tiny particles of radiation into the air which many of us (if not all) have breathed into our lungs. Once inside the body, it is now an internal emitter, which makes it much more harmful. To add to this, our bodies are not as equipped to handle such isotopes as cesium 137, and strontium 90. Cesium tends to deposit in muscle once in the system, and closely mimics potassium. From my understanding, it is excreted from the body within about 70 days (the problem being we are constantly being exposed). Strontium 90, in my unprofesional, humble opinion, is one that could become a problem because it deposits in the bones, and I'm not sure that you are able to get rid of it. These isotopes' effects on the body can not be compared to potassium or electromagnetic radiation from an x-ray. These isotopes DO cause damage to cells inside our bodies, potassium does not, the two can not be compared. They say, "radiation is radiation," this is simply not true.

Again, I am no professional, I just want to know the truth! I do not subscribe to the "fear-mongering" (however I did for a while before I could make sense of it all) however, I don't think it's harmless either. I worry about the ocean and the ecosystem. Obviously, nobody really knows the truth as nothing like this has ever happened. I think there is a lot of downplaying the scenario as well as blowing it up in the other direction. I just wish there was more testing (private) of our waters, and fish. I live in San Diego, not more than a mile from the ocean. I grew up surfing since I was 5 years old, every day whenever possible. Surfing was very dear to me. I have not set foot in the Pacific for almost a year now. In all honesty, I think the water quality, as far as radiation is concerned, in my area is probably extremely low, however I am still fearful of exposing myself unnecesarily to radiation. If I didn't have kids I would say screw it, but I would like to stick around as long as possible for them. It is the children I feel sorry for.

Much respect to all here, just wanted to add my two cents as I am tired of seeing this radiation compared to bananas and plane flights. Even scientists are doing it, but the comparison is flawed.

Not an ideal source of info but nevertheless.....

www.washingtonsblog.com...


Peace.

reply to post by Human0815

"good guys from tepco"

reply to post by seekreality

Surfing was very dear to me. I have not set foot in the Pacific for almost a year now. In all honesty, I think the water quality, as far as radiation is concerned, in my area is probably extremely low, however I am still fearful of exposing myself unnecesarily to radiation.

Which particular radio active element or isotope is it that you are most worried about?

Again, I am no professional, I just want to know the truth! I do not subscribe to the "fear-mongering" (however I did for a while before I could make sense of it all) however, I don't think it's harmless either.

It is good that you are learning about the subject, rather than just believing anything you may read without a good understanding of the subject. I think if you continue to study the science, your fear will slowly lessen.

reply to post by GaryN


Thanks for your reply. I think the isotope that is most worrisome for me would be Strontium-90, but I know Cesium-137 is the most abundant one, and probably the most likely to make it over here. I fear Strontium-90 because it settles in your bones, and I can't find any information on getting it out of your system. Cesium, can and is excreted from your body naturally, but it can still do damage while it is inside. From my understanding cesium behaves like salt and disperses throughout the ocean not just settling at the bottom like some other heavier ones. Again, just my understanding I could be mistaken.

I have been studying the science of radioactivity and radioisotopes, (via the internet) but there is such varying info even amongst top ranking scientists, it is extremely hard to weed through the information and find the real truths if not impossible. I personally think even for the most top ranking officials in their respective fields, there may be a lot of unknowns in this scenario. I speak of the effects of the isotopes on the human body, not the isotopes themselves. So much of the possible effects of the isotopes can also be attributed to other things so it is hard/impossible to say for sure what caused the health issues.

reply to post by seekreality

Yes, the whole radiation and exposure thing is confusing, made even more so by the different measurement units, and the alpha, beta, gamma classes. Generally the higher energy radiation is potentially the most damaging from the ionisation effects, and the lower level radiation, ingested material is dangerous because of its toxicity, like any other poison.
As far as the ocean and beaches, perhaps if you were to drink lots and lots of sea water you might register on a counter, but don't forget that some of those counters are so sensitive that bananas often set off detectors at the sea ports designed to detect possible illegal radio active materials. As for external radiation exposure, there are beaches where the background radiation is far more than anything in the sea, due to the sand having a large granite content.

Cs 137 has been intravenously administered to animals, with does up to 141 MBq 137Cs/kg body weight. That's Mega, not milli. The animals did die after about 80 days at those levels, from stem cell damage resulting in greatly reduced red and white blood cell production, and platelet counts. There were indications that pre-cancerous conditions in some animals were 'cured', and this is why radio active materials are sometimes used to attempt to cure, or reduce the symptoms associated with bone cancer. That is where the whole radiation thing gets even more confusing, as very heavy doses are given to cure cancer, not cause it. Leukaemia is also sometimes treated with radiation, and has not been shown definitely to cause cancer. The main suspects are benzene and some petrochemicals, viruses, hair dyes(!), and mostly, they think, inherited genetics.

And of course, Galen Winsor ate uranium and plutonium, swam in and drank the cooling pool water, and got a healthy tan from working close to some UV emitting sources, without any obvious health effects, and lived to a decent age. Breathing plutonium dust is worse than eating it apparently. Anyway, I still believe that the dangers of even moderate exposure or contamination are greatly overblown, while the benefits of low level radiation are underplayed. It can not be said that there is no safe level of radiation, we are exposed to it all the time, and some studies have shown the benefits of increasing our exposure, as with hormesis beads, or radium hot springs. Having respect for radiation is sensible, but the mass hysteria and fear caused by the very word radiation may be worse for us than the radiation itself.

The world has been poisoned, finally, due to the greed of man.

Remember you will die.

zilebeliveunknown
reply to post by MariaLida

 

Translated to layman terms, nuclear explosion?

No, it would be more of a blue flash of Cherenkov light - To get your explosion, you have to keep all the weapons grade uranium together long enough for at least 10% to convert into pure energy. What would happen is that the fuel rods would fire up as if they were in the reactor core, boil off the water since there's no lid on the storage tank, and there would be gamma and neutron radiation all over the place. Not a healthy place to be.