Creationism takes less faith

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity

It isn't about you or Dawkins. It's about what takes less faith. You can be 100% convinced but that doesn't make the claim in the OP true.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Evolution is the constant changing of matter, you prove nothing with Evolution.

I can easily prove to you how matter was once living at one point.

If all matter has been recycled through a black hole at one point, you can most certainly see how everything is transcendental. Bonded by codes of previous creation, Everything composed of our body was once star dust and beyond. It has been recycled countless times, We cannot count because we do not have spaceships and if we did we no longer have them in our current possession. That means we can't tell what happened to the planet for certain unless we unearth, or unlock some hidden history.

Besides all that. Il try to stay on topic, The 5 primal elemental states or scientists call it the primal physical states are wind fire water and earth the 5th being spirit. That means even in the forces of matter around us they are constantly bonding and changing, Elements can combine and change under the influence of the 4 primal physical states.

pri·mal (prml)
adj.
1. Being first in time; original; primeval.
2. Of first importance; primary.

I am useing these words for a very specific reason. Yes we know the scientific elemental table.
But all the elements in the elemental table are lesser elements. Compound elements. Created by the 4 primal forces which is contained and dispersed by the 5th.
If energy is so ever changing, and once, that chair or that tv in front of you could of been a person.
or a mighty ruler from an alien nation long ago crushed by the gorge and extracted into star dust. Which eventually after how many eternities pass, eventually that being became the very tree that was cut down to make that chair.

The scales are set, Life is a rare thing and shouldn't be wasted, Evolution of life as we see it is not God, Nor is it the solidified creator.

Because of the veriables of change are so dirastic around us, Its naieve to think that is the only option.
When genetic manipulation, we can clearly see we can eleminate the Evolution factor completely.
Evolution may play a part and creating life that is intelligent enough for sciences. But Such life will never jump such physical changes they claim we so had.

Its kind of an insult for them to compare us to Modern neanderthals (bigfoot) today. And say, Oh, well those are pre humans.

How can it be a prehuman if there is not a human bone in its body? Its an insult. I am not a monkey. Far from it. Monkeys have 48 cromosome pairs, i have 23 chromosomes pairs that add up to 46 chromosomes. It can bounce from 45-47 but those arn't normal humans those are genetic mutations or deformations.

Anyways the point is, We can't simply look at one factor and say *that is the answer*.
The obvious answer for us is that in our case. Evolution need not apply. We were engineered to the current state we are at, and i don't think there will be any room for evolution as everything we do will be self induced to cause genetic manipulation. That is not evolution, And we may not be the brightest species in the galaxy, But it is considered intelligent design. We would claim such of any other being doing the same. Tho we would joke about it not being intelligent

The big question people are asking here is, Did we pop up here without any forign influence at all? Through * evolution*(The processes of constant change, as water turns to air and to fire and back to earth, adapting and constantly changing to its elements)

Or were we created by intelligent design? That's up to you to decide, We will have aliens interact with us. It will happen. And when it does they will claim to be your creators. Every one of them.
We are in a difficult time, Because many people easily could choose the wrong one... should the greys make themselves known in first contact we can most assuredly expect this.

Just Understand that peoples definiton of a guy in the clouds watching everything is wrong.
Its much more complex, in the scales of things. As for some of our religions it very well could of been a dude in the clouds, not creating the universe. But playing god over us, just as they are right now in their crafts. Also
The spirit world is very much real and intereacts with the living. There is a deuality here we need to accept and see. That both spirit and the forces of change together are God, All as one. And anything creating with a god mentality in mind is but one fraction of the force of God in all things. For Any person can become a god. But there are *chief* gods. Whom attend to specific instances within creation, an idea. At least here on Earth. peupetruated simply because the experience is ineveitable. So precaustions are made in place. There actions driven by ego or not create and that force of creation was given to us by Said creation, How far does it go down the chain? Does it ever end? Is there a god of the universe? We would need to have full acesses to dark energy and all of its secrets to see beyond the night veil. But it would be hard to see at least for me to believe in such a thing.

for now we can only assume who created us and start from there.

That or life is a video game. Really seems like it sometimes lol.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

I don't agree with you. You are stating your opinion as if its fact.

I don't care if you agree with me. Disagreeing with me doesn't change the fact that my assertions are more fully supported by scientific findings than your assertions are.

I believe there is more evidence for a Creator than not.

Because if you can't come up with a better answer, then clearly there isn't one, right?

/sarcasm.

Some of that is personal some of that has to do with prophecy and some of that has to do with logic.

A god who slept through two world wars, failed to stop the Holocaust, didn't bother to prevent Pearl Harbor, sat idly by as those two planes kick-started the deaths of almost 3,000 innocent civilians, sipped his latte and just listened to the screams of those poor people at Aurora, Newtown, and Boston, and ignores the countless murders, rapes, and diseases of children and women worldwide is of absolutely no use to me. Even if he did or does exist, which I have ample reason to believe he does not.

Look at all of those tragedies I have just listed and ask yourself why those people had to die if your omnipotent and benevolent god was fully capable of doing absolutely anything to prevent those senseless deaths. There is no excuse. None. Which leads me to believe that your god is nothing more than a figment of the imagination.

Semiotic Dimensions of DNA is one of the best logical evidences that at least life itself had intelligent design.

Is that a professional conclusion made by experts in the subject? Or is that your argument from ignorance? Furthermore, even if such were evidence of intelligent design, why does that automatically validate your god as our creator? Even if it's exclusive and conclusive evidence that someone designed it, it is not exclusive or conclusive evidence as to who designed it.

What else? Well the fact that their was something outside the creation of this universe and that something created a universe with us in it, even though its highly unlikely....more logical evidence for creative design.

Fact? Fact? Remind me what degrees you hold in the subject? I'd like to see your research determining all of these assertions. I mean, weren't you just griping about me presenting opinion as fact? And then you turn around and do this. I wouldn't mind if it weren't such an egregious assumption.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Well I heard the argument for semiotics from John Lennox, and he said he heard it from a Nobel Prize winner....so I would say its pretty valid. The purpose of this thread isn't to say the Christian God is the only one, but rather to get others to understand that creationism is more logical.

ServantOfTheLamb
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

Well I heard the argument for semiotics from John Lennox, and he said he heard it from a Nobel Prize winner....so I would say its pretty valid. The purpose of this thread isn't to say the Christian God is the only one, but rather to get others to understand that creationism is more logical.

Once someone understands that a God exist, it is easy to show them which one and why.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

I don't see how a nameless source can be considered legit.

The purpose of the thread has not been fulfilled.

ServantOfTheLamb
Once someone understands that a God exist, it is easy to show them which one and why.

The billions of people that believe in a god but not the same one just proved this claim wrong.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


After reading a bit more into semiotics, I am now intrigued. Do you know any good sources for getting a simple but thorough explanation of semiotics? I will admit I am ignorant but interested.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

I don't agree with you. You are stating your opinion as if its fact.

I don't care if you agree with me. Disagreeing with me doesn't change the fact that my assertions are more fully supported by scientific findings than your assertions are.

I believe there is more evidence for a Creator than not.

Because if you can't come up with a better answer, then clearly there isn't one, right?

/sarcasm.

Some of that is personal some of that has to do with prophecy and some of that has to do with logic.

A god who slept through two world wars, failed to stop the Holocaust, didn't bother to prevent Pearl Harbor, sat idly by as those two planes kick-started the deaths of almost 3,000 innocent civilians, sipped his latte and just listened to the screams of those poor people at Aurora, Newtown, and Boston, and ignores the countless murders, rapes, and diseases of children and women worldwide is of absolutely no use to me. Even if he did or does exist, which I have ample reason to believe he does not.

Look at all of those tragedies I have just listed and ask yourself why those people had to die if your omnipotent and benevolent god was fully capable of doing absolutely anything to prevent those senseless deaths. There is no excuse. None. Which leads me to believe that your god is nothing more than a figment of the imagination.

Semiotic Dimensions of DNA is one of the best logical evidences that at least life itself had intelligent design.

Is that a professional conclusion made by experts in the subject? Or is that your argument from ignorance? Furthermore, even if such were evidence of intelligent design, why does that automatically validate your god as our creator? Even if it's exclusive and conclusive evidence that someone designed it, it is not exclusive or conclusive evidence as to who designed it.

What else? Well the fact that their was something outside the creation of this universe and that something created a universe with us in it, even though its highly unlikely....more logical evidence for creative design.

Fact? Fact? Remind me what degrees you hold in the subject? I'd like to see your research determining all of these assertions. I mean, weren't you just griping about me presenting opinion as fact? And then you turn around and do this. I wouldn't mind if it weren't such an egregious assumption.

What do you want, a storm to sweep away the planet? lol. Everything you mentioned isn't isolated to one location. So what do you prepose, hellfire and brimestone? Just because some people cause some problems? There's a time and place for everything. And it isn't going to happen everytime some idiot does something stupid. But it will happen reguardless because people cannot escape karma between beings. The bible was written by man, Not by God.

All those evils you mentioned are under constant scrutany so its not like they just get away with it. People don't just forget. They are feeling the effects if their choices through the masses and that is why they have fema camps. Specificialy for the fear of their choices will cause uprise.

So reguardless, It is being handled. We all want to be free and our will to find truth and life will come. As long as you remain pure. You the individual, forget what everyone else is doing. We all create a domino effect. Should you allow yours to bolster humanity? Or degrade it further.
Our actions have a ripple effect no matter how small.

Those that deserve to be punished will be punished, as the unfortunate suffer. They will have that suffering emposed on them 10 fold. By being driven underground in tight cramped qurters. Hoping they will survive.

All the death and murder and weapons we use on each other can be observed from space.
Its only a matter of time before we see such action before things get out of hand.
I have read various stories about UFOs in WW2, and the cold war. Deactivating missles sites.
True or not. That would be intervention. But is the world destroyed? No.

So why would they need to intervene? The world still kept on spinning even after the so called * world wars*
The middle east was exempt from those wars, They don't even know the meaning of them... Now they do.
And i guess their getting all pissy because of it, but oh well.

These things happen, And until we have a world wide changing event. Where intervention is needed. it won't happen.
There won't be a reason for it.
Unless of course you are an evil alien race and you purpose cause a reason for it?
And were back to the religious alien war once again... To Enslave all humanity.

reply to post by AnuTyr

Your post has nothing to do with the god in question.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

After reading a bit more into semiotics, I am now intrigued. Do you know any good sources for getting a simple but thorough explanation of semiotics? I will admit I am ignorant but interested.

edit on 12-9-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Hi AfterInfinity,

The semiotic argument Is basically about "new information" and numerology without the numbers.They're talking about codons and amino acids dressed up in sophistic language and excessive, ill-defined verbiage to imply a code creator.
Chemistry representing those reactions with letters does not create a coding systems that needs a coder to explain.
When you mix an acid and a base, its makes a salt. That just happens. The only code to explain is the one we invented to talk about the reaction.

Anyway here is a thread that destroys the semi-ID-iotic argument.

reply to post by flyingfish


Thank you for that. I guess I really didn't need to concern myself, eh? More speculation bolstered by spiritually-driven extrapolation and shadow-hunting. Interesting material, but certainly not proof of intelligent design.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by flyingfish

 

Thank you for that. I guess I really didn't need to concern myself, eh? More speculation bolstered by spiritually-driven extrapolation and shadow-hunting. Interesting material, but certainly not proof of intelligent design.

I admit the concept was interesting at first, but when you get down to the nuts and bolts, it's just another creationist snow job.

I don't think you quite grasped the concept of the argument sir. First off even wiki acknowledges the link between semiotics and the biological systems.

en.wikipedia.org...

1. Semiotic systems are regularly seen to arise from intelligent agents. As a corollary, semiotic systems have never been known to arise from purely natural causes. Indeed, in every instance in which we see a semiotic system and know the provenance, it started with an intelligent agent.
2. There is a semiotic system in biology.
3. Therefore, the most likely explanation is that it came from an intelligent agent.

Is this deduction? Of course not. But it is a perfectly appropriate form of inductive reasoning and inferring to the best explanation.

How is there a semiotic system within the genetic code? Lets look. Think of DNA as two types of symbols, Type 1 and Type 2.

type 1 symbols are expressed in mRNA molecules and stand for actions to be performed; type 2 symbols are expressed in some sort editing mechanisms (e.g. gRNA molecules in the genetic system of the african trypanosomes) which stand for contextual observables.

informatics.indiana.edu...

mRNA molecules convey genetic info from DNA to the ribosomes. Now while I agree there are chemical and physical processes involved, there is still a message with meaning being transmitted between the two. This is a semiotic system.

Both RNA and DNA are nucleic acids, which use base pairs of nucleotides as a complementary language that can be converted back and forth from DNA to RNA by the action of the correct enzymes. During transcription, a DNA sequence is read by an RNA polymerase,

en.wikipedia.org...

nucleotides are used as what? LANGUAGE meaning it is used to convey meaning to one another. During transcription what happens DNA is READ meaning it is interpreted to have meaning just like the words you are reading on the page now. Transcription has a semiotic system within it..

This is fact not pretty language.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


Since it's so clear, would you mind posting a translation between the m/gRNA and their respective instructions? I want to see the correlation.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


Chemicals have physical properties. There's nothing mysterious about that.
NaOH + HCl = NaCl + H2O
That describes a real spontaneous chemical reaction that happens all by itself spontneously. The fact we can represent those reactions with letters does not create a coding systems that needs a coder to explain.
The chemical messages are meaningful to the DNA molecule trying to replicate itself. It is not the same meaning as creationist trying to "prove" that God exists. The DNA molecule has a much simpler agenda.

reply to post by flyingfish


Whats your point tho? Sure we give names to each code by chosing a letter or combining letters and numbers.

But its never going to be *random* as you so put it.
The Sequences will only match with the present Algorythms. You arn't going to create Au(Gold) by
simply mixing a random assortment of elements...

That is silly.

In any scientific chemical algorythm It needs to follow the set ions and protons with its carrying capacity.

And since certain elements only have a set ammount even or odd of both of these.
We can't just dsajdjsal'djsa'djlskdjsalkdjaslkdj = Gold. You know what i mean?
It has to be a certain *CODE* and even tho we give letters to elements these *letters* will only Fit
in Algorythms that make sense.

There is most defanently a form of intelligent design within the makeup of elements. For us to use and abuse these elements, we would need to identify them and create a formula.
Coincidentally, Similar formulas can mix as long as the product is stable. We need to use a sequence of that specified formula to get the results we want. Weither we like it or not. We must isolate and even go to great lengths to purify elements to reduce contamination JUST so we can get the results we want.

What does any of this happening in nature have relivance to intelligent design? Well everything in nature is already created by a set pattern, Viruses may beable to inject *RNA* which can be used to mutate and add protiens if this happens then the RNA in the virus that is read activates the codes.
if the codes fit you will have a niche, if they don't you have cancer( Highly unstable byproduct of codes THAT MIXED AND DON"T WORK) So in order to maintain geometry in life and what not.
There must be order or some form.

Tho you all are asking the wrong questions to answers that can never be answered.
You all are basically asking if humans are special and the universe was created specifically to Screw with our heads, and make us think some creator out there spawned the universe then turned its watchful eye to earth so that we can all go to some heaven for some reason that makes no sense?
No one is given life to gain immortality and dwell with a bearded wise men.

Shouldn't you be planting a forest? Or creating life in barren areas of the Earth. The universe is not a selfish place and to assume everything is in existance four our disposal is nieve. If we thought that way then its morally correct for aliens to invade and do the same. But its not. Because there is an intelligent code of conduct.

Is some high coucil governing everything that happens? No. So what now? What do you do when you reach the state of creator? You create, using the codes and formulas discovered.....

And in the process of us doing so, Is intelligent design.
You may be arguing over the origins of humanity, But as currently. We are defining life as either natural or man made. Man made = intelligent design. Maybe the choice wasin't to intelligent? But intelligent design non the less.

And we have been practicing intelligent design for thousands of years, Agriculture was a primary motive. To create yeilding fruit, and by combining fruits we have successfully creates fruits and vegitables that should not exist. Like many species of apples orange pears, watermelons, mostly any kind of fruit and vegitable you can think of has been genetically modified by us over the generations we have been cultivating them.

And this is humans we are talking about here, not aliens.

Like i was saying before, There isin't 1 answer. And trying to say * This is what happened* Is only accepting one answer.

Truth is, nature does fine on its own..... but its not alone
Life itself plays part in intelligent design of the beings around it...
Human or not.
And life also carries on by itself.... Using the codes provided.
All we as humans can do, Is identify an element with a code, And see how it reoccures elsewhere with *matching* elemental codes and how it will not Match with something that makes it unstable... Like cancer.

Even elements get cancer. lol.

Well i want to just let you know that your in luck because thats exactly NOT the case.

reply to post by AnuTyr


Your post made me think of the very issue of seeds and fruits. How did the seed develop to make a tree to bear a particular fruit? How did that code happen? Fruit has seeds and they are dropped by animals and more trees grow to make more fruit, but how did the first fruit tree come to be or any plant for that matter?

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity


Exactly. Its a simbiotic relationship. We are the coders, with greater intellect and understanding of the codes we are able to reproduce the desired effects as long as we understand the parents of the genes we take.

In other words, Even animals as such can *Prune* and mix genes of other planets by deficating near them roots can bond and form specifically because of that animal.

Many animals rely heavily on vegitation as we do as well, And many animals will have a *desired* plant which they lurk about and protect, even wage war over resources.

In many species, opposing families are enemies and compete for food and living space. Just as we do.
Plants are somewhat vulnerable to many things. Some develop quills and poison to reduce foilage consumption.

But plants will still have a desired symbiotic entity (creature, bug, Pathogen, Fungus) And based on our needs, These plants will adapt to these needs specified in order for us to WANT to claim its seeds and continue to self produce.

This has caused many vegitables and fruits to lose their Perrenial abilities in place of growth, and nutrient displacement within the fruit/flowers.

These plants not only feed us be depend on us their very survive. If we did not pick non perrenials the species would be wiped out... Know what im saying

reply to post by AnuTyr


So, how does a plant "develop" these self defense mechanisms? It just doesn't seem logical that it thought it up or even knew it needed it. It would be dead and gone before it could genetically modify itself, so how does it happen by chance?