Foreign modesty laws in Brooklyn.

“They operate like the Mafia,” ... “They might tell the father of a girl who wears a skirt that’s too short and he’s, say, a store owner: ‘If you ever want to sell a pair of shoes, speak to your daughter.’”
source

These threats were made, not by fundamentalist Muslims in a conservative Middle Eastern nation, but rather by fundamentalist Jews in Brooklyn, NY, otherwise known for its rather un-Kosher hot dogs and mermaid parades. These modesty codes are strictly enforced by so called modesty squads, who are essentially the fundamentalist Jewish version of the Islamic religious police. While these orthodox Jews are American citizens, I'm sure most Americans would agree with me that threats over short skirts is anything but American.

So then, where is the outrage from all those Americans claiming Shariah — a foreign religious law — is gaining foothold in the USA?

But in places like Williamsburg, Brooklyn, the issue of non-compliance with ultra-Orthodox modesty rules has crept into neighboring secular areas. In 2009, Hasidic South Williamsburg community members successfully rallied to block a bike lane that brought outside bicyclists — specifically, women wearing shorts — through the neighborhood.

Many of the rules of conduct are focused explicitly on regulating what Hasidic women car wear in public, believing that an uncovered head or a skirt that reveals too much will arouse the sexual attention of men and boys.

Its easy to imagine the kind uproar that would have ensued had it been Muslims blocking off a bike lane to cyclists in shorts. However, conservative Jews were actually able to deny Americans access to a bike lane in an American city, for the simple reason that their clothing was not in compliance to Jewish modesty standards.

Once again, why are the anti-Sharia folks so silent over Jewish modesty laws — pretty much identical to Muslim modesty laws and as foreign to the USA — being enforced in an American city? Why are they shying away from criticizing Jews who are imposing their Sharia like modesty laws on other Americans?

Many of the rules of conduct are focused explicitly on regulating what Hasidic women car wear in public, believing that an uncovered head or a skirt that reveals too much will arouse the sexual attention of men and boys.

Similar to Islam and other conservative religions, clothing regulation for women is just one aspect of Jewish religious laws concerning modesty. In conservative branches of Judaism and Islam, the very purpose of modest dressing is to discourage sexual thoughts over scantily dressed women.

Both conservative Jews and Muslims place a strong emphasis on religious rulings especially when it comes to women, clothing and diet. Jewish religious laws on modesty and diet are extremely similar to that of the Muslims, yet its always only the Muslim religious laws and practices that viewed with suspicion and contempt. Muslim modesty codes, skull caps, hijabs, halal meats and mosques in the US are supposedly symbols of a foreign religious law being enforced in stealth. Whereas Jewish modesty codes, yarmulkes and shtreimels, kosher meats and menorahs seem to exist without attracting the negative attention from folks concerned about foreign religious laws enforced in the USA.

A possible explanation could be that groups pushing conspiracy theories about foreign religious laws in the USA only have an issue if it involves Muslims. Another possibility is that many of the anti-Sharia campaigners are largely comprised of Christians with pro-Zionist sentiments, who see the Jews as sharing in their religious heritage. Either way, their selective criticism of foreign religious laws in the USA only reveals that such groups and individuals operate on xenophobia and prejudice as opposed to a genuine interest over protecting their country from all things un-American.

Further reading :
Shadowy “modesty squads” police ultra-Orthodox Brooklyn
Inside Brooklyn’s Feared Hasidic Modesty Patrols
'God's police' enforce strict modesty code in orthodox Jewish Brooklyn
Women in Judaism

You have to remember that the dumbed down American public needs the MSM to tell them when something is good or bad. And nothing will be said about this because if anyone were to complain they would be labeled an antisemitic. If you think Brooklyn is bad look at California it is now illegal to say anything against Israel on college campuses. That Nazis group known as the Simon Wiesenthal Center got that passed.

Interesting. I hadn't heard of this.

Now that I have, I feel the same way about it as I do about Muslim requirements for women to hide themselves.

Another example of men who can't control themselves. Pitiful. An extended family member of mine wears long skirts and doesn't cut her hair because of her strain of Catholicism. Amish also have strict dress codes.

Whatever, none of it applies to me, as I am part of none of those organizations or cultures, and what I protest is being told I'm somehow "dirty" or the "cause" of bad behavior if I don't follow someone else's neurotic idea of "modesty."

s & f for bringing this up it is a problem that nobody will face maybe the people should organise a march to piss them off like they do in england when people are harrased over sharia law .

try going to israel and getting away with somethings and see how long you will last .

taketh ye the religion of the land it is about time that was pointed out to some people

Orthodox judaism is one of the most oppressive religions for women.
It is very hard for any criticism of judaism, because immediately you are accused of being anti semitic,

Originally posted by WilsonWilson
Orthodox judaism is one of the most oppressive religions for women.
It is very hard for any criticism of judaism, because immediately you are accused of being anti semitic,

Judaism is one of the only religions and cultures in history to give women rights to own property, to be prophets and leaders of the people. You lie sir.

Plus if you have ever been to Williamsburg, it is 99 percent hasisdic in that neighborhood where the bike lane would have gone, it is practically a gated community, without a gate. In any case, the driving there is hazardous in a car, let alone a bike lane, it would be a massacre

reply to post by dashen


It's you lie miss, but i'll let you off.

However in my opinion what i have said is true.
The divorce laws for one are horrendous for orthodox jewish women.
i watched a documnetary not long ago about a group of Rabi's in Israel who's job is to try and track down men who have left their wives without divorcing, their postion is very precarious, as they are stuck in a no mans land, while the men can get on with new lives even remarry.

I have never been to the States, but we do have a large Hasidic Jewish population here in Manchester in England, and there would be uproar if they tried to force orthodox jewish ideas of clothing on non jewish women.

reply to post by wildtimes


can I give you a big internet hug! YES---you are absolutely right about everything! I am a woman too and I will be damned if any man or other woman tells me what to do. Men are absolutely the problem--boys too. Women need to remember that the hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world.

reply to post by dashen


Are you saying the Hasidic Jews can't drive worth a damn either? If it's 99% Hasidic Jews there then they must be the problem on the roads.

Reminds me of this fat PoS in black hassling the cyclist. Think it was the same area if I remember correctly.

www.youtube.com...#!

Originally posted by WilsonWilson
Orthodox judaism is one of the most oppressive religions for women.
It is very hard for any criticism of judaism, because immediately you are accused of being anti semitic,

The most oppressive religion for women is islam!

reply to post by mamabeth


I wouldnt say so. Their divorce laws are much better.

Inequality of the Sexes

The position of husband and wife with regard to divorce is not an equal one. According to the Talmud, only the husband can initiate a divorce, and the wife cannot prevent him from divorcing her. Later rabbinical authorities took steps to ease the harshness of these rules by prohibiting a man from divorcing a woman without her consent. In addition, a rabbinical court can compel a husband to divorce his wife under certain circumstances: when he is physically repulsive because of some medical condition or other characteristic, when he violates or neglects his marital obligations (food, clothing and sexual intercourse), or, according to some views, when there is sexual incompatibility.

A peculiar problem arises, however, if a man disappears or deserts his wife or is presumed dead but there is insufficient proof of death. Under Jewish law, divorce can only be initiated by the man; thus, if the husband cannot be found, he cannot be compelled to divorce the wife and she cannot marry another man. A woman in this situation is referred to as agunah (literally, anchored). The rabbis agonized over this problem, balancing the need to allow the woman to remarry with the risk of an adulterous marriage (a grave transgression that would affect the status of offspring of the marriage) if the husband reappeared. No definitive solution to this problem exists.

To prevent this problem to some extent, it is customary in many places for a man to give his wife a conditional get whenever he goes off to war, so that if he never comes home and his body is not found, his wife does not become agunah.

Originally posted by Britguy
Are you saying the Hasidic Jews can't drive worth a damn either?

I dont want to objectify a whole group, but when im driving deliveries though that neighborhood its kinda scary

I dont paticularly want to start defending other religions such as Islam and Christianity as compred to the Jewish religion.
Non of them in my opinion have rules that place women at the same level of authority and oppourtunity as men. Which to me speaks directly of the fact, that while i believe people have real experiences of God, non of these books can claim to be the Direct word of God, how could they when they place women in such positions. No God would ever do that.

Originally posted by WilsonWilson


The divorce laws for one are horrendous for orthodox jewish women.
i watched a documnetary not long ago about a group of Rabi's in Israel who's job is to try and track down men who have left their wives without divorcing, their postion is very precarious, as they are stuck in a no mans land, while the men can get on with new lives even remarry.

The jewish divorce laws are the most progressive in the ancient world until modern times. I guaranteed a woman at least year of sustenence for her and other protections, unheard of in the ancient world or anywhere until very recently.
The rabbis you referred to are authorized by some rabbinates to physically beat these dead-beats until they agree to sign a divorce releasing the woman from the man. It is an effective preventative of abuse

If their were enough hard core Jews they could pass laws based on religion like Christians banning alcohol in certain towns and counties, making it illegal to buy achohol before a certain time or at all on Sundays, anti nudity laws. Look up Blue Laws in the US, these are religious based laws.

reply to post by MrSpad


Yes, they are, and there are STILL dry counties and "blue laws" in effect. I remember Sundays as being the most BORING days of the week during the "Blue Law" era in my state. It's only very recently (10 years MAYBE) since they allowed Sunday beer/liquor sales, and it's STILL not before noon. People simply drive across the state line, where it's less "religious", and places like grocery stores can ALSO sell liquor and alcohol. Here it is liquor stores ONLY, and they're not allowed to sell "mixers" or "party supplies" or ANYTHING except alcohol.

ALL the stores were closed, BY LAW. NOTHING good on any of the three tv networks, having to dress up and go to a somber church that made no sense to me, then come home and sit around. I found it oppressive and horrible, and I was in elementary school.

Jews... you haven't been given an invite, no one wants you to join, despite having a tendency like all religious nuts to procreate in large numbers as much as 70% in America leave the fold for more "normal" lives...

Islam 1.5 Billion and growing

We tollerate Williamsburg because arguing with religious nuts is annoying and realistically there are a handful of neighborhoods in the world with these guys and it's by blood... they are asking for their street and it's practically a museum and is close to being like... Amish country

Islam however has that 1.5 Billion thing and convert by the sword crap going on... a legit threat to others liberty and daughters

If Islam was confined to a few places globally... i'd say let them have their Shia law too... because they are nuts and the population can't be a threat, unfortunately, they can put a million family members in your neighborhood if your too nice about it...

realistically jews are decreasing in numbers despite the Orthodox efforts and screw williamsburg, jerusalem and a few small spots in England...you don't need to genocide the ideas (bat S crazy as they may be) of 20 Million people in global population, even in Israel they don't rule the roost, they are a niche population (yes take their nukes too if they take over, over there)

Islam well... legit conversion fear index right there, of 20 Million some odd (no pun intended) Jews...less than half are the wierdos, not exactly a global nor even a national threat anywhere except. maaaybe Israel, Islams a freaking HORDE of intolerance knocking gown doors all over the world... Tolerance, I think it starts at letting less than .05% of the world do their own thing...when 1/5th of the planet is coming for your bike shorts... you should pay attention

reply to post by penninja


I'm sure all those people obsessing over Sharia "creeping" into the US also find ways to excuse Jews practicing Sharia like laws in the US.

If Kosher meats in the marketplace are ok, then Halal meats shouldn't be a problem.
If yarmulkes, shtreimels and full body covering are ok, then skull caps and hijabs shouldn't be an issue.
You get the point....

This has nothing to do with personal opinions on Judaism and Islam. It also has nothing to do with population numbers. However, this is about American reactions to pretty much the same thing being practiced by 2 different groups.

So stop making excuses for the group you are more inclined to tolerate... while inventing reasons to justify why the other group shouldn't be tolerated.

I don't tolerate any of it. I could never understand it why it's always the women's fault that men can't keep from being aroused. Shame on you women for being beautiful and making me all hot and bothered!

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


that is unfortunate. I don't understand why certain groups who have strict rules to their society feel the need to live in places with lax rules governing the vast majority. I can respect the Amish for example for excluding themselves from the rest of the world to live as they see fit without encroaching on the way of life of others.

It is intolerable for a minority to try to impose themselves on a majority because they feel the need to live a certain way. They should go where they are a majority and do as they please. NYC is no ones for example. Why live there?

In the end groups that are this strict and imposing will create much social stress and animosity towards themselves and make history their future. They need to do as romans our get the hell out of rome.....

on a side note.....
If anyone is in Brooklyn today around the Brooklyn brewery at 6, stop on by to meet a fellow ATSer. We can have a beer and talk about our favorite tin foil hat styles..lol Blue shirt white pants black sneakers.......beer in hand ....that's me....say hi. code phrase= short shorts are great on bikes......response = only in tolerant neighborhoods .....wooza....