keeping god out of official pledges

hi - the efforts of religious adherents to keep refrences [ and fealty ] to alledged " gods " in various official pledges continues unabated .

the case of cadet Jonathan Bise , a USAF officer cadet is the latest cluster# , wherein the religios element attempts to shoehorn a religious element into pledges that are inherently secular

cadet bise - was " informed " that he was " required " to utter a pledge containing the lie " so help me god " to attain his commission

the constitution of the USA prohibits a religious test on any office - its that simple

but the religious persist - predicably this idiocy was shot down - cadet bise is now an officer

the only question is - why does this have to be fought EVERY time ?

no one wants the religious to forsake thiier alledged gods - they can swear fealty to any delusion they wish - but don't demand that every one else drinks your cool-aid

links :

link one

link

got it ?

First of all, It's "Kool-Aid", not "Cool-aid". DUH!

Secondly, what makes you the authority on whether or not God exists???

Finally, if you'd like to have a constructive conversation regarding the founding principles of America, so be it. But might I suggest you drop the insults, sarcasm and attacks. You'd be smart to recognize that you are a very teeny-tiny minority who does not believe in a higher power - less than 2% of the population - and shrinking quickly I should add. Given that we are likely, in our lifetimes, to enter into a civil war driven by ideology, you'd be smart to acknowledge that you are playing for the losing team and perhaps behave accordingly!

I thought you had to disavow worldly goods to be a truly religious person? If that's the case, I think the 2% world population of non-god fearing folk would vastly outnumber the number of religious followers.

Official pledges and Oaths of office have always struck me as antiquated, and that's not even getting into the belief or lack their of in a deity.

Guess it stems from the belief a "god" would be the ultimate morality and a person swearing an oath by one must be telling the truth...

Your basically asking people to promise to be honest, and as with anything that depends more on the individual than anything else.

A theist can be the worst liar, while the atheist could be one of the most honest people you ever met, so throwing a belief in a deity to confirm their oath is silly to start with.

In the modern era can't we just have them sign legally binding contracts, any violation of which results in perjury and contempt charges.

reply to post by ignorant_ape


Alright, so tell me WHY does this upset you enough to start a post? What is it about the word God in a sentence that spurs you to witness feelings within you that cause you to write a post? You portray an image that says you do not believe in god, yet you act out on the feelings you are GIVEN?

Is it 'truth' that compels you to write a post attempting to refute the very feelings you are witnessing within you? Where do they come from, man? You are being pushed in a direction my friend, one of learning the truth by seeking to refute it. It is only a matter of time before this phase of yours sheds away from your being like a butterfly emerging from a cocoon. Stay cynical, stay pessimistic, because you will be proven time and time again that you can be positive and stay positive. You must learn to have faith. God bless you

Do we still pledge to Zeus?

Remember, yesterdays "Gods" are our fairy tales now, and today's "God" will be tomorrows fairy tale.

The more we learn, the less we need to rely on myths and legends and 3,000+ year old books to explain things.

I think politics should be completely stripped of any kind of religion. Worship at home, in churches and mosques on the weekends, evenings and free time.

There are just to many people with varying beliefs, and various conviction to those beliefs to allow religion in government. To many times in history good ideas that could have advanced humankind and brought a better quality of life to many were quelled/silenced because of the beliefs of some.

Really it should be changed to "so help me Zeus"
But folks insist there is no Zeus.

Thor?
Forget it, they think he don't exist either.

Those Dummies!

reply to post by ignorant_ape


"IN GOD WE TRUST" is a pledge that is printed on all of OUR Currency.

Should that be eliminated as well?

If the word "God" in a pledge really makes you mad, I would be willing to wager that you get really pi$$ed when you spend money knowing that you are encouraging the practice by doing so.

reply to post by ShadellacZumbrum


Yes I believe we should strip "God" off our money as well.

Look, I don't care if you worship an ant you found in your back yard -- secular governments run smoother and protect the religious rights of EVERYONE.

My state recently started offering personalized license plates with "In God We Trust" on them. I was contemplating writing a letter to the local newspaper about the separation of church and state and why it is important.

reply to post by ignorant_ape

As a Christian, I usually don't find much common ground with atheists, particularly hostile ones, but there is actually some biblical support for what you say. This will come as a surprise to many, but there are some verses pertaining not only to this, but stating that you shouldn't swear any pledges at all.As in the following:

But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all:either by heaven, for it is God's throne;or by the earth, for it is His footstool;or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King, and do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. All you need to say is simply 'Yes' or 'No';anything beyond this comes from the evil one-Matthew 5:34-37

This also changes the game from the Old Testament. This would surely upset a lot of applecarts in our society, but, hey, the Word says what the Word says. This came as news to me, too. Honestly, the more I engage in Bible study, the more I find that contradicts what I've been taught all my life, on this and other subjects. I'll leave those for another day, so as to stay on topic. I'll be sure to pray for you, the thought of which probably really annoys you. Bye!

reply to post by MystikMushroom

I believe we should strip "God" off our money as well.

The athiests that filed suit for that very reason a couple of months ago are not fairing well in that battle. I am not sure that is something that is going to happen anytime soon.

I'm not religious but I love the God references. I like having people around who can believe in God so I don't have to.

reply to post by ShadellacZumbrum

"IN GOD WE TRUST" is a pledge that is printed on all of OUR Currency. Should that be eliminated as well?

MONEY is GOD for the US government and it's capitalist corporate greed machine. To be sure, money is their GOD.

Originally posted by MystikMushroom
reply to post by ShadellacZumbrum

 

Yes I believe we should strip "God" off our money as well.

Look, I don't care if you worship an ant you found in your back yard -- secular governments run smoother and protect the religious rights of EVERYONE.

It just says "God", it doesn't specify who, or what, "God" is. Thomas Jefferson wasn't a Christian, but he most certainly was a theist -- or do you propose removing God from the Declaration of Independence and going back to the days of "there are no inherent rights, just those granted by the king/government"?

The establishment clause is just that -- a prohibition of the Federal government from establishing a religion, or preventing the free exercise of religion. Putting "In God We Trust" on currency doesn't do either of those things.

My state recently started offering personalized license plates with "In God We Trust" on them. I was contemplating writing a letter to the local newspaper about the separation of church and state and why it is important.

Unless they force you to have a personalized license plate that says "In God We Trust", you don't have much of a case.

Don't confuse "Freedom OF religion" with "Freedom FROM religion."

Originally posted by ignorant_ape
hi - the efforts of religious adherents to keep refrences [ and fealty ] to alledged " gods " in various official pledges continues unabated .

the case of cadet Jonathan Bise , a USAF officer cadet is the latest cluster# , wherein the religios element attempts to shoehorn a religious element into pledges that are inherently secular

cadet bise - was " informed " that he was " required " to utter a pledge containing the lie " so help me god " to attain his commission

the constitution of the USA prohibits a religious test on any office - its that simple

but the religious persist - predicably this idiocy was shot down - cadet bise is now an officer

the only question is - why does this have to be fought EVERY time ?

no one wants the religious to forsake thiier alledged gods - they can swear fealty to any delusion they wish - but don't demand that every one else drinks your cool-aid

links :

link one

link

got it ?

*grin*

it has nothing to do with God, anyway

..the Oath is the Akhu
the oath which the Fallen ones subdued to

so plu-hease
dont attempt to turn this into another god-is-stupid-thread

okay ?

reply to post by kozmo


What an ignorant post. Toe the god-fearing line or get your ass kicked someday in the "religious ideology" wars? Ok then *backs away slowly*

Originally posted by dontaskmeimfrommars
reply to post by ignorant_ape

 

As a Christian, I usually don't find much common ground with atheists, particularly hostile ones, but there is actually some biblical support for what you say. This will come as a surprise to many, but there are some verses pertaining not only to this, but stating that you shouldn't swear any pledges at all.As in the following:

But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all:either by heaven, for it is God's throne;or by the earth, for it is His footstool;or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King, and do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. All you need to say is simply 'Yes' or 'No';anything beyond this comes from the evil one-Matthew 5:34-37

This also changes the game from the Old Testament. This would surely upset a lot of applecarts in our society, but, hey, the Word says what the Word says. This came as news to me, too. Honestly, the more I engage in Bible study, the more I find that contradicts what I've been taught all my life, on this and other subjects. I'll leave those for another day, so as to stay on topic. I'll be sure to pray for you, the thought of which probably really annoys you. Bye!

This is a good quote and on the whole agree, but might I add this quote as well so that we can take the whole of the Bible in context:

"Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, the people he chose for his inheritance." Psalm 33:12

That being said, I do not like the idea of children pledging their allegiance to a country they know nothing about. If you're an adult, you've lived in and love your country, if you want to pledge your allegiance to your country (and you've cited why we as Christians shouldn't) then certainly that's your right. Even if you're a child and are compelled to do so, that's fine with me also, but to be even asked to do so without full understanding indeed violates Matthew 5:34-37 as well as forcing a totalitarian state.

America bless God, and God bless America...for we need all the help we can get.

reply to post by Toadmund


Thor exists, I saw him in 2 movies. In fact I am pretty sure he was James T Kirk's father in Star Trek

reply to post by ignorant_ape

no one wants the religious to forsake thiier alledged gods - they can swear fealty to any delusion they wish - but don't demand that every one else drinks your cool-aid

I think we have to first, take history into account when/where faith was widespread and promising to a god you would be loyal, demanded more honesty than simply swearing to another human being or a piece of colored cloth. From there, such became established tradition and established traditions don't tend to roll over on command.

Besides all that, if one doesn't believe in a said god (or gods), then swearing to them any oath shouldn't hurt that much. I mean, if they (the god or gods) aren't looking down, then why all the animosity? It's harmless... unless one feels threatened by something that does not exist, lol.

Perhaps we could have a national referendum to allow the people to decide? That's the way we used to do things... back when 'we the people' carried something more than a vague memory of the basic concepts of those who founded the nation...

... but, then again, they probably believed in god(s) too so...

What a mess. Let's all just climb back up into the trees again and start over.

reply to post by Malynn


No, ignorance is the deplorable display of disrespect that the OP and others have for other's beliefs. Ignorance is a failure to recognize the principles upon which this country was founded. Ignorance is the assumption that the vast majority of people need to shelve their belief system, our country's traditions and values to assuage some idiot's incomprehensible display of intolerance. Finally, ignorance is the failure to recognize that small mice shouldn't poke sleeping lions in the eye!

The vast majority of us who have religious beliefs are accepting of those of you who do not. Yet, we continue to be besieged by attacks and ignorance.