Revelation : The whores "fornication" is usury.

reply to post by guitarplayer

One fly in your ointment of interpretation is that in the OT usury was forbidden between brothers but was encouraged with foreigners.

So you mean to tell me that God allowed usury to take advantage of everybody else?

Read Ezekiel 18:13... Usury is declared an abomination. Theres no stipulation that its forbidden only between brothers.

Usury is institutionalized deceit...the whores fornication with kings... that deceives nations and makes its merchants rich.

reply to post by Snsoc

Okay, if Jerusalem is the whore of Babylon, then fornication can't be usury, or else there is a large problem with your argument.

The reason is that Jerusalem is not the center of usury. Usury is established and maintained by banks all over the world. If you had to pinpoint a center for it, I'd say New York City, since that's where the HQ of most of the major American banks are located, and like it or not, America pretty much sets the standard for the rest of the world.

New York may be the center of usury in our time.

By the time we reach the time frame of the events written of in Revelation, Jerusalem may well be the new center. God knows best.

"The merchants of the Earth" from Revelations 18:11 is your clue.

The merchants of the earth was always my clue. The OP is basically about the strange emphasis Revelations 18 places on merchants.

They are the biggest clue to figuring out that the whores fornication is basically a deceptive financial system.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Usury is institutionalized deceit

Can you say Mercedez Benz?

Can you say "better than you"?

I saw a lawyer in Utah buy the biggest house around only to wind up having it foreclosed when his income deflated.

Usury is all about putting on a show.

reply to post by Snsoc

Usury is established and maintained by banks all over the world.

Exactly, the nations are drunk on the whores wine of "fornication". Just because its maintained by banks all over the world doesn't mean its "normal".

If you had to pinpoint a center for it, I'd say New York City, since that's where the HQ of most of the major American banks are located, and like it or not,

It isn't just about American banks. Revelation refers to a larger picture.

It might explain perfectly why the whore has the mysterious name...

Babylon the great, the mother of prostitutes and of the abominations of the earth.

This abomination has taken roots all over the world... leading to the rise of other prostitutes.
And the whore is the mother of them all.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


I have to agree that your theory has considerable weight. We know from Scripture that "love of money is the root of all evil," so it stands to reason that usury, which is caused by the love of money, would be the mother of all abominations, as the Whore is referred to in Chapter 17.

reply to post by Snsoc


The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender"
-Proverbs 22:7

The "lenders" who indulges in usury grows rich while those they deceive become their servants.

The merchants of the earth, the great men of the earth... are mightier than armies.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Oh a great deal, Christ addressed that with one of the 7 letters to the 7 churches in Revelation chapters 2-3

Actually, chapter 2 gives your idea of the whore, being false religion, more credibility. Which means that the whores “fornication” should in turn be something connected to false religion…

This verse below in particular, seems to confirm it…

Revelation 2:20-22
20 Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21 I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways.

Which would in turn suggest that this “fornication” is to do with indulgences in false religion. Problem is, certain religions are also practicing and partaking in Usury…


- JC

Originally posted by Amagnon
Rome is built on 7 hills, and is often identified as the whore of Revelations. ie Catholicism.

There are over 80 cities all over the world, and half of them located in the Mediteranean region, that are sitting on 7 hills. Mecca sits on 7 hills, Constantinople (Istanbul) sits on 7 hills, Rome, Jerusalem etc. That is a pretty huge list.

reply to post by Joecroft


The whore was once a city called Ninevah, later renamed Babylon. The thing to remember with Hebrew writings is often they have a dual application in meaning, one literal and another of a more spiritual nature.

Jerusalem stoned the prophets and ha'Moshiach Yehoshua and Jerusalem still must say "Baruch haba b'Shem Adonai, Yehoshua ha'Neseret" or "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" (Matt 23:37-39) they must repent and atone, and by atone come to Christ.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Fornication, when taken into context with the OT prophets, is speaking about chasing after idols and other gods, or "playing the harlot" with false gods. Commiting adultery against God. There are two types of idolatry, old school idolatry worships objects, modern idolatry comes in the form of self worship, or self gratification that can be found in humanism and Neo-Platonism (a.k.a. Atheism). The book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ is an amalgamation of many OT prophets end time prophesies.

"Fornication" meant idolatry in context to the OT. Yes.
But the theory of "fornication" being idolatry and false religions doesn't sit well with the narrative of the whore in Revelations 17 and 18, mainly because of the several references to merchants and trade throughout Revelation 17 and 18.

We clearly see that there exists a direct co-relation between the whore / fornication and merchants of the earth growing rich. The merchants a.k.a businessmen / bankers are described as being the whores own. Which explains why they weep and mourn over the whores destruction.... which led to their financial losses.

Its clear that Revelations 18 is talking about the collapse of a corrupt financial system, NOT idolatry.

edit on 15-7-2013 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

God couldn't give a crap about money, he's way beyond that. Spiritual matters are his concern anything else is an afterthought. Revelation is an amalgamation of OT prophets end time prophecies, put together like a puzzle that is why you have to establish eschatology, because it is not in chronological order. He has always, always, always, always, always griped about his people being unfaithful to him, he considers it adultery since he is supposed to be our "husband" (Jeremiah 31:32). The merchants and things are just a symptom of the adultery going on against God. The Whore is consorting with civil powers, political powers, mercantile powers...a.k.a. Mammon, or material power and wealth, but the Whore herself is a religion that claims to belong to God. You're seeing the symptoms, but you're not seeing the problem which the root is adultery against God.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by Amagnon
Rome is built on 7 hills, and is often identified as the whore of Revelations. ie Catholicism.

There are over 80 cities all over the world, and half of them located in the Mediteranean region, that are sitting on 7 hills. Mecca sits on 7 hills, Constantinople (Istanbul) sits on 7 hills, Rome, Jerusalem etc. That is a pretty huge list.

Mecca is actually called that as well. The city of 7 hills. And Islam fits in with another huge key about the reign of the Antichrist. That he will behead anyone who refuses to follow/worship him. Jews don't behead people, Christians don't, heck even secular people don't. Radical IslamoNazis do that.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


The answer to this is logical, who is the one woman who owns most the World? Hangs out with royalty? Colonized the Middel East and all banking starts in her area, London? Are these not enough clues? Only 1woman fits this discription

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by Amagnon
Rome is built on 7 hills, and is often identified as the whore of Revelations. ie Catholicism.

There are over 80 cities all over the world, and half of them located in the Mediteranean region, that are sitting on 7 hills. Mecca sits on 7 hills, Constantinople (Istanbul) sits on 7 hills, Rome, Jerusalem etc. That is a pretty huge list.

Mecca is actually called that as well. The city of 7 hills. And Islam fits in with another huge key about the reign of the Antichrist. That he will behead anyone who refuses to follow/worship him. Jews don't behead people, Christians don't, heck even secular people don't. Radical IslamoNazis do that.

Yeah I've seen some of Walid Shoebat's videos. A lot of what he says fits, but i'm still wondering where the Vatican and the R.C.C. fits in all this. There's a lot of similarities between the Vatican and the Caliphate, but the Caliphate took a mortal blow around 1925 after WWI.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Well remember, you have the beast empire, then a woman who rides the beast. And the false prophet is labeled as a lamb with horns. The symbology there should be obvious brother.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

God couldn't give a **** about money, he's way beyond that. Spiritual matters are his concern anything else is an afterthought.

Its not about money.
Its about an evil practice involving money that God declared as an abomination. Its still a spiritual matter.
God will respond to the whores evil system that is being used to subjugate people.

The merchants and things are just a symptom of the adultery going on against God. The Whore is consorting with civil powers, political powers, mercantile powers...a.k.a. Mammon, or material power and wealth, but the Whore herself is a religion that claims to belong to God. You're seeing the symptoms, but you're not seeing the problem which the root is adultery against God.

The whore is consorting with civil/ political / mercantile powers through usury. Its the common factor.
Kings/governments are in league with the whores system of usury. Nations are deceived by usury. The whores merchants get rich through it. (Revelations 18:3)

Once the whores system collapses... the kings and merchants mourn and weep over it. Gods people are told to come out of her and pay her back. All the pieces fit.

The merchants aren't mere symptoms... they are OF the whore, and thereby instrumental in the whole thing. The symptoms always point to the bigger problem. In this case, the bits about the merchants shows that they are indeed at the core of the issue presented in Revelations 17-18.

but the Whore herself is a religion that claims to belong to God.

Nowhere in those chapters do we ever read anything to support that statement. There is nothing about false religions in the chapters about the whore.
The whore also doesn't claim to belong to God, instead it is made resoundingly clear that the whore is directly opposed to God....by being drunk with the blood of holy men and sitting on a beast covered with blasphemous names.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Mecca is actually called that as well. The city of 7 hills. And Islam fits in with another huge key about the reign of the Antichrist. That he will behead anyone who refuses to follow/worship him. Jews don't behead people, Christians don't, heck even secular people don't. Radical IslamoNazis do that.

Well, Jesus accused Jerusalem, not Mecca of having the blood of holy men and saints.
I'll never get why Christians refuse to listen to Jesus.

As for radical "islamonazis" who behead people, they simply don't have the technology and infrastructure to create the anti-christs regime. The anti-Christ would have a state of the art, hi-tech army... like that of Israel's or the USA's. So look in that direction.

The religious book of Orthodox Judaism is the "Babylonian Talmud".

In one of the passages, it says that you don't have to be completely honest to a Gentile in business affairs.

In several passages, it also allows Jews to have sex outside of marriage without breaking the law of adultery. Sex with children for example, is allowable.

I don't have to post the verses here, just google "evil in Talmud" and you'll have your verses in Talmud!

Sad to say, speaking the truth nowadays is anti-semitism!

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Nowhere in those chapters do we ever read anything to support that statement. There is nothing about false religions in the chapters about the whore.

Yes there is. The 144k are chosen because they were virgin, meaning they did not commit adultery against the Lord for "fornication", they had nothing to do with Mystery Babylon. The prophetic cipher was established long before the book of Revelation. Them being "virgins" is allegorical that they were faithful to the Lord and did not engage in idolatry. I told you before Revelation is an amalgamation of the old prophets end time prophecies. Yes usury does stem from a spiritual malady, i'll give you that but as I said before usury is a symptom of the greater disease which is adultery against the Lord.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Yes there is. The 144k are chosen because they were virgin, meaning they did not commit adultery against the Lord for "fornication", they had nothing to do with Mystery Babylon.

Them being "virgins" is allegorical that they were faithful to the Lord and did not engage in idolatry.

I was referring to the chapters where the whore is mentioned.
As for the 144k, they were literal virgins, not allegorical virgins. The Bible hasexamples of literal virgins. John the Baptist would be one. Paul preached that it would be better if men stayed single.... and Jesus himself spoke of those who remained celibate for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.

The 144,000 are simply a special class of holy people, who have abstained from sex for the sake of their faith. Its absurd to think that of billions of religious people over thousands of years, only 144,000 were faithful to God without engaging in idolatry.

The prophetic cipher was established long before the book of Revelation. I told you before Revelation is an amalgamation of the old prophets end time prophecies.

It is, and the prophecy of the whore having the blood of holy people is an echo of Jerusalem having spilled the blood of holy people. The destruction of the whore is also repeated from Ezekiel.

Yes usury does stem from a spiritual malady, i'll give you that but as I said before usury is a symptom of the greater disease which is adultery against the Lord.

Yes, there is that "greater disease". But all I am saying is that usury is the core mechanism of the whores "fornication" with kings... that deceives the nations.

Usury based economics and money will also have a role to play with the reign of the anti-Christ. There are spiritual and secular aspects to Revelation. The secular aspects of prophecy are references to technologies and economics. Many descriptions of the whores activities are references to economics.

skorp

jesus taught that the spirit of the law was more important than the letter of the law. which in effect meant that if you let the law over rule your compassion for other people, whether they are kaffir, gentiles or your fellows, and whether or not they were riddled with sin, you have already disobeyed the intent or spirit of the law. he was very much against legalism, so idol worship or not, the point is still the same - spirit of the law is superior to the letter of the law.