Can't get away from religious crap

reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee

And yet, you have yet to argue that WHY of my error, only that I am in error. You claim that nothing in the NT asserts Christianist is about Christians taking up arms against nonChristians, and yet, I have made the direct claim that it does. You do not counter that claim with anything more than saying "NUH UH!!"

Reading this post it appears you don't understand how logic works. You see, it's the burden of the person who makes the positive claim to support their claim. So you need to show Biblical support for your claim that Christians are to take up arms against nonChristians. Trying to get someone to prove false your positive arbitrary claim is called "shifting the burden if proof", which is a fallacy.

reply to post by theRhenn


I know more about the religion in question than you'd know about me.

Or my opinion on the topic, it seems... but none the less, I'll reiterate that I don't consider all xtians fanatics. But there are those that inevitably cast aspersions on anyone not proselytizing prostrate in awe of god or jesus, that they must be sinners, to be pitied and helped cross the street or barbaric heathens deserving of contempt at their arrogant unbelief.

It saddens me to see good honest people who need god in their life, put in the same basket as the fanatics. Of any religion.

It shocks me that people can ignore reality for a belief in something so obviously illogical, but we're all different and we are all allowed to do so if we choose.

I don't see the need to post about how much it annoys you however, when your advice is to ignore it. I think we all know that.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee

 

And yet, you have yet to argue that WHY of my error, only that I am in error. You claim that nothing in the NT asserts Christianist is about Christians taking up arms against nonChristians, and yet, I have made the direct claim that it does. You do not counter that claim with anything more than saying "NUH UH!!"

Reading this post it appears you don't understand how logic works. You see, it's the burden of the person who makes the positive claim to support their claim. So you need to show Biblical support for your claim that Christians are to take up arms against nonChristians. Trying to get someone to prove false your positive arbitrary claim is called "shifting the burden if proof", which is a fallacy.

Psst. No one is arguing whether or not what I am saying is in the Bible. They are simply telling me I am "wrong" about Christianity being a religion of War. There is no shifting the burden of proof, because they are making the claim that my assessment is wrong.

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee
This esoteric rambling isn't really doing anything to knock down the 4 points I have made, if anything you continue to prop up my position that Christianity is a War Religion because you are saying that it isn't NOT a War Religion.

If your initial position is that it isn't NOT a War Religion, we cannot ever work away from Christianity BEING a War Religion.

You flip a coin, and it lands on heads.

Does that make it a heads coin?

You are overlooking the tails.

It may land on heads. Heads may be all YOU see.

But it remains a coin of heads and tails.

reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee


Perhaps you are unaware that it's not workable to post the whole NT in a post or even a thread.

There's no verse you can post from the NT asserting that Christians are to take up arms against nonChristians.

There are many verses to the opposite.

Claim whatever your fantasies drive you to claim. That still does not rewrite the NT.

And it still provides no remotely valid reason from the NT for avoiding what's commonly called religion.

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee
This esoteric rambling isn't really doing anything to knock down the 4 points I have made, if anything you continue to prop up my position that Christianity is a War Religion because you are saying that it isn't NOT a War Religion.

If your initial position is that it isn't NOT a War Religion, we cannot ever work away from Christianity BEING a War Religion.

You flip a coin, and it lands on heads.

Does that make it a heads coin?

You are overlooking the tails.

It may land on heads. Heads may be all YOU see.

But it remains a coin of heads and tails.

Again, this doesn't negate anything I am saying. At all. At best you are saying that Christianity is a religion of both War AND Peace, and that doesn't make my claim invalid.

Originally posted by Carreau


I think you took it the wrong way. The way I read that message is that Jesus HELPED the sinners and didn't avoid them. Washing the feet ect. Knowing what I do about the organization of The Salvation Army I think they were trying to tell other Xtians to go seek out sinners and helped them when they can not "shove their beliefs down their throat".

I think you put yourself into a bad mood for no reason.

The fact that I can't walk down the street without seeing religious mumbo-jumbo is the point. Further, I don't have a problem with the Salvation Army or even the person that thought of this sign. What stands out is the fact that there are certain words that should never be used in a religious context: WAR against sin, FIGHT for your soul... These words do not invoke peace and love and tolerance and caring.

On the other hand (apart from the fact that I don't need this crap), what YOU wrote would've been all positive is the sign had read: Jesus HELPED the sinners and didn't avoid them.

reply to post by Darkblade71


Ahh signs..

Reminds me of the joke about the flood. There is a huge flash flood, and this family manage to get on the roof as the flood water rise up as fast as it can. Being devout christians, they're standing on the roof praying "the lord will save us, the lord will save us." when along comes a small raft and the guy on it calls them over. "No it's ok, god will save us!" and so the raft floats away. The water keeps rising and rising when a motor boat comes along and the guys call them over. "No it's ok, god will save is!" and so the boat floats away. By now the water is up to their necks when a chopper comes alone and drops a ladder. "No it's ok, god will save us!" and the chopper flies away.

Well they drown. At the pearly gates the father screams at god "Why didn't you save us, we prayed for you to save us!" and god says "What? I sent a raft, a boat and a chopper, what more do you want?"

ahh signs.. I have to ask myself. Why the riddles.Why not just come on down and say "Smarten up you lot." why the absence? why mysterious ways? why not obvious ways. "Look around you, isn't it obvious this was created?" sure, if this is so obvious, where is he? "Look at all wot I did. Oh but.. shhh I'm not here."

What sort of logic creates everything and then says "annnnd gone." signs..

If you believe in the tooth faery hard enough, they'll give you 20 cents for your tooth.

Originally posted by BO XIAN
reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee

 

Perhaps you are unaware that it's not workable to post the whole NT in a post or even a thread.

There's no verse you can post from the NT asserting that Christians are to take up arms against nonChristians.

There are many verses to the opposite.

Claim whatever your fantasies drive you to claim. That still does not rewrite the NT.

And it still provides no remotely valid reason from the NT for avoiding what's commonly called religion.

Hey man, they aren't my fantasies, I see it as a work of fiction. I don't have to rewrite the NT, and nothing I have claimed comes from anywhere BUT the NT. I've only actually had to post one verse here in the thread, and it is Jesus directly commanding others to take up arms.

Its a few pages back.

reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee


There's one Scripture about those without a sword to go buy one.

How is that an exhortation emphatically clearly about taking up arms against nonChristians vs defending one's family against robbers and murderers?

Pretending Christianity's founding documents exhort the faithful to take up arms against nonChristians is simply false beginning to end.

Christ said . . . love your enemies
Christ said . . . do unto others as you'd have them do unto you.
Christ said . . . love others as yourself
Christ said . . . do good to those who despitefully use you.

Yet you keep claiming--evidently--that He ordered his followers to do the opposite.

WRONG. Not so.

Trying to trump up Biblical excuses to treat religion as anathema may suit your priorities. That doesn't make such logical or historically accurate.

Besides, Christ was hostile to religion, too.

He died that we might have RELATIONSHIP with the Father, not religion. His fierce castigations of the RELIGIOUS rulers of the day showed how He felt about religion.

I'm beginning to wonder if you have as daffy a version of the NT as you seem to a daffynitionary.

In civil society, with a common dictionary . . . words tend to mean mostly fairly stable meanings.

.
.

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee

Again, this doesn't negate anything I am saying. At all. At best you are saying that Christianity is a religion of both War AND Peace, and that doesn't make my claim invalid.

It makes your claim a half-truth.

Half-truths are invalid.

reply to post by jiggerj
For someone who "can't get away from religious crap" you seem to invite discussion of it more often than most religious folks do jiggerj. The majority of religious folks (not everyone, there are zealots in all groups) here at ATS usually don't bring up religion unless it is a thread devoted to religious discussion or someone throws religion into the mix in other sorts of threads. I have discussed many topics with you without religion being involved unless you have been the one to bring it up.

As far as the sign goes, would you expect anything else to be displayed on a building occupied by an organization called the "Salvation Army"? There are many signs that I find offensive. I just try to ignore them. As far as I'm concerned religious groups have just as much right to post their signs on property they own or on rented space as the people who rented the billboard not far from my house to advertise their "adult novelties" and "boudoir fashions".

Originally posted by BO XIAN
reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee

 

There's one Scripture about those without a sword to go buy one.

How is that an exhortation emphatically clearly about taking up arms against nonChristians vs defending one's family against robbers and murderers?

Oh, so now the man that spoke in parable must be taken at his literal word? How about this one?

1While they were listening to this, Jesus went on to tell them a parable, because Jesus was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas. Put this money to work,' he said, 'until I come back.' "But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, 'We don't want this man to be our king.' "He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it."The first one came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned ten more.' 'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.' "The second came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned five more.' "His master answered, 'You take charge of five cities.' "Then another servant came and said, 'Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.'"His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?' "Then he said to those standing by, 'Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.' " 'Sir,' they said, 'he already has ten!' "He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

The King is clearly Jesus in this parable. The rest falls into place rather well, doesn't it?

Like I said before, I don't want this to turn into a biblical pissing match. I am the only one posting anything of substance from the Bible, and this thread isn't even about the Bible. It is about religious crap. I made a post in agreement with the OP about religion, and I added my own distaste for how warlike and vengeful religions, Christianity in this instance, are, and the thread is highjacked by people taking exception.

I don't care if you take exception. It doesn't make Christianity less warlike.

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee

Again, this doesn't negate anything I am saying. At all. At best you are saying that Christianity is a religion of both War AND Peace, and that doesn't make my claim invalid.

It makes your claim a half-truth.

Half-truths are invalid.

Your Bible makes all sorts of claims and excuses, and many invalidate the others, without half-truths you have nothing.

I don't have this problem that you have, i've lived all over the United States and never had this problem. It sounds like you seek this "religious crap" out. Ignore it all, is it really that hard for you to ignore these things. I'm annoyed by loud people at the movies....so I rent and stay in.

I like Christians...I think they have big hearts and genuinely care about others. In fact I don't know where i'd be without the kindness one Christian family showed me while I was abroad in Germany. Yes some are pushy...ignore them. Some dont follow their values and aren't really Christians at all.....it's just a ruse for some. But the majority i've known are good people.

I suggest you stop listening to hate filled rants by others like you. Why must everyone always be filled with such hate and malice towards those with differing views, no not just differing views but religious ones? I've done it at times too, we all do but that doesn't make it right.

I'll be honest in saying I don't believe in their book...to me it's just fanciful tales but im so glad and that the world still has people like them. Those who love everyone regardless, who are able to forgive the most atrocious of acts by others commited against them. I like their morals and though I don't believe in their God I try everyday (sometimes failing) to live by those same basic standards.

It was a sign you read and yet you act as if someone got up in your face and screamed BE A CHRISTIAN OR ELSE at you, get a grip, it was a sign that i'd bet 99 percent of Christians have no clue exists.

I see advertisments all day that annoy me, I choose to look the other way......simple really.

Originally posted by winofiend
Thought you were going to have a go at the content on ATS for a moment too..

Me too! LoL! Because I've had similar thoughts when I log on to the off topic forum to chill and it's all religion threads.

Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Seems like trolling. I'll take the bait.

I go on reddit alot for breaking world and science news and occasionally browse before going to sleep. That site is chalk full of atheists, the militant kind, and an atheist like comment always seems to pop up, and that's alright. I used to e one and understand the mindset with the emphasis on head insteadof heart/intuition.

You should look into Zen, they actually work on detachment from the part of you that's bothered by miniscule things.

Nah, it's not trolling. It actually happened and I'm sick of it. What is even more frustrating is how the religious downplay the dangers that religion threatens the entire world with. I mean, you don't even say, yeah religion is really being misused lately, but I still believe in it. No, you call it miniscule. This is a gap in thinking that simply can't meet somewhere in the middle.

reply to post by theRhenn

Ya ever hear that old saying... "Why does it bother you? Are you feeling guilty about something?".

Ever hear this saying: Guilt by association?

I am not particularly fond of anyone forcing their belief (or lack of it) down my throat.

That said, signs, billboards, etc may be annoying but its so incredibly easy to just keep going and focus on things that are actually important. No force fed ideology is really involved with those, regardless of the annoyance factor.

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee

 

And yet, you have yet to argue that WHY of my error, only that I am in error. You claim that nothing in the NT asserts Christianist is about Christians taking up arms against nonChristians, and yet, I have made the direct claim that it does. You do not counter that claim with anything more than saying "NUH UH!!"

Reading this post it appears you don't understand how logic works. You see, it's the burden of the person who makes the positive claim to support their claim. So you need to show Biblical support for your claim that Christians are to take up arms against nonChristians. Trying to get someone to prove false your positive arbitrary claim is called "shifting the burden if proof", which is a fallacy.

Psst. No one is arguing whether or not what I am saying is in the Bible. They are simply telling me I am "wrong" about Christianity being a religion of War. There is no shifting the burden of proof, because they are making the claim that my assessment is wrong.

Well sir, that would be a NEGATIVE claim on their part. And no one can prove a negative. You made the arbitrary positive claim therefore it is your burden to prove the positive claim. #logic101