Was Jesus King of the Jews?

Sorry if this has been discussed before.

I noticed that the three Magi when they followed the Star of Bethlehem to find Jesus said "We have come to find The King of the Jews. Also Pilate asked `Jesus if he was King of the Jews and he didn't deny it.

Crucifixation was a political punishment and the Bible tells us that the Jews themselves didn't want to stone Jesus to death. There must have been some reason for that, other than a riot which the Romans would have contained.

Jesus was asked if people should pay their taxes to Rome, which is a strange question to ask a holy man who doesn't care about wordly things such as money. Yet his reply was to give to Caesar what was Caesar's. It seems
a strange answer for an ordinary Jew and a strange means of death. Jesus was not the only man making religious claims in Jerusalem.

There is a lot to go over and I'll explain in detail later. In Christianity Jesus is consider the promised Messiah. The roots of Judaism is ever so present. Despite Jews today do not view Jesus as the promised Messiah. In Judaism there is going to be a promised Messiah who will usher in the Messianic age. In Christianity I believe Christians view the return of Jesus as ushering in a new age and they believe him to be lord (king) of everyone. Regardless if you're Jewish or not.

There is a lot to go over. But I'll have to source my information. Hopefully this helps.

Go back and read the gospels. They carefully set out the lineage of both of Jesus' parents (Mary and Joseph) and record that both Mary and Joseph lines go back to King David (implying that Jesus was indeed of Royal stock).

The nativity story we all learn as infants is not recorded as it was presented to us in any of the gospels. Only two of the gospels even discuss Jesus' birth.....and only one of them has him being born in a stable......the other has him being born in a house.

That's just for starters

as far as i was brainwashed

I think Jesus threw up some coins and said something like

Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's

Originally posted by christina-66
Go back and read the gospels. They carefully set out the lineage of both of Jesus' parents (Mary and Joseph) and record that both Mary and Joseph lines go back to King David (implying that Jesus was indeed of Royal stock).

The nativity story we all learn as infants is not recorded as it was presented to us in any of the gospels. Only two of the gospels even discuss Jesus' birth.....and only one of them has him being born in a stable......the other has him being born in a house.

That's just for starters

they set out lineage on a lot of stuff,all these stories about a god and his son

seriously it infuriates me that people actually believe this stuff when there has been actual no prove of it what so ever but you believe life exists elsewhere then your a complete nut case

scientists say now that there could be billions of life out there but everyone is still believing in this superior being who is suppose to be this love of everything but lets the most horrific things happen because he doesn,t want to interfere in mans will.

i know us humans like to think we,r not alone but thats got to be the most stupidest thing ever, doesn,t take a scholar to know if he was all so mighty then getting involved in mans will shouldn,t really matter cause he could easily wipe him getting involved from our memory

or is that one beyond him?

In the beginning there were many gods. Each culture believed in nature gods of their region. Through the stories of the escapades that were spun, certain groups were put together in their meaning or deeds and the old gods were born. These gods became deities like Zeus, Jupiter, Odin, and Ipilya which is where the worship remained for quite some time. Then one day, a man sitting in prayer, had an epiphany. There was only one god, one creator, and all the other gods were simply parts of him. We shall call this man, Adam, just for arguments sake. The belief of one god spread fast through out the known "civilized" world. The stories of the one god continued to compound the acts and passions of the old gods as they all became one. Then one day, a man we shall call Abraham put it all together and declared there is one god by the contract(Is) between the Sun(Ra) and the creator(El), basically, follow these rules and you shall receive life/blessings. The land of Israel was formed through its people, but the ground was quickly taken from them and they were scattered. Until they finally got a decent foothold in Rome.

This group grew and began to long for a place to call home where they could be left alone to live life as they wanted, but through their passiveness they were taken for granted and or used. After some time they had begun to obtain a certain amount of control over their surroundings and became comfortable, shall we say. This little sect within the community(Essenes) attempting to keep alive the idea of a Massiach(Savior) and thus the bloodlines of David were followed. This is where the contest begins. Rome says, "you can hang with us and have some power, but you must extinguish this idea of someone coming to save you, this is Rome, you are saved" or something like that. So the majority of the faith was split. The Essenes were shunned and basically secluded themselves to little towns, but some Romans just had to make the bloodlines end before prophecy was fulfilled, out of paranoia I think, so the bloodlines were hidden.

Then along comes John, he turned out to be inconsequential, save for one story and soon after Jesus(Yeshua). He began to act like a King to his people and drew a lot of attention to himself. Fortunately, Cesar, at the time, didn't really care too much and allowed it to become a Jewish issue. When Jesus became too popular with his teachings of "Give that which is Cesars to Cesar" meaning let go of the money, the life style, the "Civilization" and give yourself to God, The Sanhedrin plead with Pilot to get him out of the way because he is going to mess up the contract between Jews and Rome for position. And the story plays out to his crucifixion. He was discarded as the Massiach and called a prophet splitting the Jews into another sect which became Christians. So, yes he was the King of the Jews but by the time he was actually born the throne was all but gone. Yet another sect of Judaism was created with the teachings of Mohammed which grew into what is Islam today.

Continuing on, Christianity soon took over and began to dominate the World through forced conversions and extreme conditions, but Judaism held on and got into banking and moving money, which they soon learned that control was for their taking and they did. The Catholic Church still ran things for the most part, but the Jews began to control under the sheets until business, through banking, all but eliminated Roman Church power and have been in control since. As it looks, the Muslim sect is attempting to shut down the machine that is money and greed and to take their turn in running things their way. All my opinion of course.

I just want to point out that there is no scriptural proof of "3 wise men". It only says "wise men" not how many.

Was Jesus "King of the Jews"? Well, He never said He was, and He never said He wasn't. Scripture shows that this title was given to Him by the gentiles not the Jews.

IMO, He was neither at that time, but will be when He returns. When that happens He will be recognized as the "The King of Kings and the "The Lord of Lords".

No. Jesus said he wasn't. He said "You say I am"...and "My Kingdom is not of this world"

Hi to all and thank youj for replying with your thoughts.

I did not include the lineages from the Gospels because I suspect they won't agree with each other. I do think that he and indeed Mary traced their lineages back to King David.

With regards to the three Magi etc its such a wellknown Christmas card and teaching from the Church that perhaps its more tradition than kept in but I do recall the gifts: gold, frankensince and myrrh. (I was burning myrrh when I posted this question).

I do know that the Jews were hoping for a Messiah which was going to be a fighter King and get the Romans away from the Jews. Jesus was certainly not that image of a Messiah, whether he was by birth or not. So the Jewish community would have been pretty fed up with him.

Joseph being as carpenter was possibly a means to hide Jesus's true identity, but his family were obviously very well connected and Mary certainly simply walked into the Jewish High Priests house without being thrown out as a poor beggar. Joseph of Aramathea the tomb provider was a wealthy man and I think got his wealth from being a metal merchant so he was not a poor man. Jesus was also educated in Egypt so he is not IMHO a poor Jewish lad following in his elderly adoptive Dad'sCarpenter footsteps.

Lastly Jesus was teaching in the Synagogues and its probably not that well know that the Synagogue had its own religious police. Although we know he managed to evade trouble probably with them, he would not have been a teacher there without very good credentials. I also t does not say he was either a Sadducee or Pharisee (? spelling) so he had to be not only a Rabbi but someone important that people would listen to and in the Synagogue he woulod not have lasted very long before the olice pounced on his if he were a rogue preacher.

There is no reason why Jesus could not have been both a king and a holy man. Its only the Christian story that we know is unreliable in parts.

reply to post by Shiloh7


Thats pretty close, but I would like to address this statement...

Joseph of Aramathea the tomb provider was a wealthy man and I think got his wealth from being a metal merchant so he was not a poor man.

I have never heard that Joseph(some think it was his father in the stories but I think his actual father was Jacob) was a metal merchant, however, it does not mean he was not. What I do know is that the area Jesus was crucified and buried was a garden. A garden was an area that plants were grown commercially. In this case it was Gethsemane. Only the land owner could have a tomb in the garden so Joseph of Arimathea owned the garden. A garden has specific rules to be considered a garden. First it had to have a surrounding wall, which is mentioned in the gospels(why only a hand full were present at the crucifixion) Second, it had to have a well or flowing water, and third it had to have a wheel press. The word for wheel press was "Get" and "semane" is Jasmine. So the area Jesus was crucified and buried was a Jasmine processing farm(basically) Jasmine was the royal oil and was used in certain ceremonies, but the point is that it was extremely expensive and Joseph would have been a very rich man indeed to be the owner of the garden and the tomb.

reply to post by Agarta


The Essenes are a very interesting Sect and excavations have shown them to have been manufacturing weapons for an all out fight led by their Messiah. I went to a lecture that proposed that when Jesus was put on the cross there was an army of Essenes marching on Jerusalem intent on taking over. They expected Jesus to rise up from the dead and lead their army but, he never came round and the body was taken to suggest he had in fact risen. The Romans decided that the Sect posed a problem to security of their province and so the Essenes had to go.
I think there might be hints of this in Phillip's or one of the Gospels that didn't make it into the bible but its a long time since I read it.

I wonder what it was that made mankind want to belong to a Godhead. Many people are so independent that this dependency, which I know is partially a fear of death, seems strange for it to have affected all mankind.

reply to post by Agarta


Thanks for that, its certainly food for thought. There are so many odd things that have not been taken out so we only get glimpses of the world surrounding Jesus. Its interesting that Jasmine is a 'royal' flower. It seems to me that have echoes of the Gold, Frankencense and Myrrh that were also gifts fit for a King. I don't understand why it was necessary to hide something like Jesus's Kingship as said earlier the Jewish Kingship was virtually dead anyway and the Jews were a subjugated people. It is so peculiar that all reference to Jesus is so scant.

Text Go back and read the gospels. They carefully set out the lineage of both of Jesus' parents (Mary and Joseph) and record that both Mary and Joseph lines go back to King David (implying that Jesus was indeed of Royal stock).

reply to post by christina-66


My understanding is that there is no actual Royal Stock except in that which God proclaimed as David being anointed with the anointing oil of Moses. As far as blood lineage is concerned there is none.

Boaz was an Israelite and the non Jewish woman (Ruth) that he married was a Moabite. If you recall the Moabites were the offspring of the incestious relationship between Lot and his daughters. Boaz married Ruth, (the Moabite) whom we read was David's direct ancestress, and it was through Ruth that Goliath was related to David. Goliath was the son of the Moabite Orpha who in turn was the sister of David's ancestress Ruth. This, then, finds both Ruth and Orpha the daughters of the Moabite King named Eglon but after Ruth's marriage to Boaz she became a righteous and pious Jewess.
Goliath's mother, Orpha, (sister of Ruth) was just the opposite than her sister Ruth in that she was quite permissive with loose morals. In fact she was said to have been famous for the great number of men whom she had sexual intercourse. Goliath was the one who suffered the most because of this and legend says that he was jeered at as being the son of a hundred fathers but one mother. Orpha had four giant sons and of these four Philistine giants, Goliath was the strongest and greatest.

In plain English this means that King David was the cousin of the giant Goliath who he killed on the field of battle.
David himself was a man of about 28 or 29 years old and not as depicted by the story tellers of most denominations. If you recall King Saul stood tall above the people in stature and also that David wore the armor of his king when he went out to meet Goliath. It is said in Jewish Anthology that David was 10 feet tall when he killed the giant OG. David could not have suited up Saul's armor if he was but a small lad.

Now concerning this Royal stock of Jesus to David, it is not true in the sense of blood and flesh simply because Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost and not the seed of man. As far as our ways of understanding it is true that the lineage is counted as that of man but in all reality King David was a mutt and Jesus was the son of God.

reply to post by Shiloh7

Jesus was asked if people should pay their taxes to Rome, which is a strange question to ask a holy man who doesn't care about wordly things such as money. Yet his reply was to give to Caesar what was Caesar's.

The question was asked in order to entrap him. If he had said 'Yes, pay Roman taxes' he would have been accused of collaborating with the Romans by the Hebrews; had he said 'No, do not pay Roman taxes' he would have been accused of sedition by the Romans. Either way, he would be getting into political trouble and giving his opponents the high ground with one or the other.

Jesus (non)answer neatly blunted both edges of that sword and gave his opponents nothing to use against him.

It seems a strange answer for an ordinary Jew and a strange means of death. Jesus was not the only man making religious claims in Jerusalem.

I don't understand these sentences within the context of the rest of your paragraph.

Jesus wasn't 'an ordinary man' - he was a master politician and his answer was that of a master politician. He saw the danger in the question and gave a masterful answer.

Jesus death was the standard Roman political execution, nothing strange about it; unless you hold to the idea that he had to be taken down before sunset due to Jewish sabbath laws and Passover.

Yes, Jesus was far from the only itinerant religious master in Jerusalem. 'Miracle Worker" was a popular and respected occupation throughout the empire and there were many of them. Remember, Christianity is basically an invention of Paul. Jesus plan was to restore respect to Jewish law, not to invent a new religion.

Good subject....I can fill in volumes..... but everyone should read that book, it has all the answers.
Time is getting tite...I should get to fillin in....HUH!...
The bethlehem deal....there were at least 40 in the bunch that came looking for the new King...they came from the east really...when they visited the mother and child, Yahushua was 4 months old. ( THUS the house by then ). more as we go....I'm trading the Tokyo Open right now....waitin for the JPY pairs to fall.....

Got a five minute break.... took profit and waitin for the next 5 minute candle.....I shouldn't bother with the market when you guys are way more important...I have a new " Chart Hacker " method to try tonite...
The mathematical odds of one man fullfilling the foretold requirements to be met by the Messiah are 10 to the thirty-second power, which is virtually impossible....Actually that is the odds figured by an expert on just 8 of the foretold requirements to be fullfilled......that's the same as stacking one dollar bills in 75 piles....75 seperate piles next to each other from the earth to the moon...and then taking an elevator up there and stopping anywhere you like.....and reach in....and pull out one bill from.....one of the 75 piles.....and having it be the one.... right back...

Cool...just faded a big Austrailian spike.....In 2 B.C. on the 25th day in December......this will turn on a lite about this subject.....the heavens put on a show by having Regulus....the Royal star....do a retro-grade back pass ove rthe Virgin in the constellations.....not for His birthday, for the gifts, I guess.The wise men have a written history tracking whom they probably were and their culture of smarts.
So, I suppose the Christmas celebration is a commemeration of the wise men giving....cool

reply to post by GBP/JPY

The mathematical odds of one man fullfilling the foretold requirements to be met by the Messiah are 10 to the thirty-second power, which is virtually impossible....

Except that it isn't. The 'foretold requirements' were cherry picked AFTER the fact. A bit like randomly picking a buy/sell, finding that it worked, and then going and finding all the indicators that 'foretold' the event.

reply to post by rnaa


Hi
I agree with you that it was an entrapment question but the thread is about whether Jesus was actually the King of the Jewish people? (or was he the poor, but gifted son of a carpenter) Agreed also he would, were he the King had to be a 'master pollitician' as you say.

Unless as earlier discussed, Jesus was an Essene and waiting to lead an army after rising from the dead. The Jews wouldn't kill him themselves so wanted Crucifixation which is a political punishment but surely neither one either side of Jesus should have been crucified as they were common thieves so something yet again doesn't ring right.

I am not sure I would think that Jesus had the intention of restoring respect for the Jewish Law. I can't remember when the torah was written but that is not a book that is conducive to Christ's teachings whatsoever. I suspect he wanted to get the Jews away from the influence of the self-satisfying priests. He attacked the offerings from which they clearly made money as well as the money lenders so he clearly was not happy with the way they were enacting the Law.

reply to post by GBP/JPY


With Jesus we go back to so many other mythololgical and religious masters. eg. so many were supposedly born of a virgin, stuck on a tree etc He seemed to have gone to a lot of trouble to fulfil numerous prophesies about the Messiah.