I Converted A Catholic To Atheism

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
Obviously nothing constructive or productive.

You may not have seen it, but I guarantee that is wrong.

My friend is now drinking himself into hysteria, claiming that he lied and he loves Jesus. He's got some problems he needs to deal with, I guess, and atheism just doesn't do it for him in his intoxicated state.

Sounds like he needs a friend, and someone who will help him find his own Path, whether it includes God or not.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

My friend is now drinking himself into hysteria, claiming that he lied and he loves Jesus. He's got some problems he needs to deal with, I guess, and atheism just doesn't do it for him in his intoxicated state

Did you have him check out RecoveryfromReligion? I think it was on page 1ish that I predicted some angst and backsliding. Letting go of religion is VERY HARD TO DO.

If he's willing, have him look at that site.
All the best to him. It's NOT an easy undertaking. He's got a ways to go, but he can do it if he really wants to. It's painful - like divorce.

reply to post by wildtimes


It definitely can be difficult, but for many, it is a feeling of pure freedom.

Perhaps, if that freedom is not felt, then encouraging Mr. Cooper to find his own answers and beliefs may be the best way to go. It seems that AI's system is not particularly working for him, which is to be expected since all of it is a journey we individually take.

I think encouraging him to explore his own beliefs, on his own time, will be very productive. It may not agree with the basis that you, AI, has set forth for him.. but you are essentially just giving him a fish, and now he has eaten it and is hungry again, but has NO idea how to get more food. Its the same thing that many religions do, where they have a generalized structure that is expected to apply to every individual. If it doesnt, guess where you are going? And all just for showing EVERYONE how complex, diverse, and beautiful our little part of the universe really is.

Teach him how to explore these things for himself, and you will introduce him to freedom. Perhaps jumping from one label to another has left him feeling disassociated and "homeless." Teach him how to build his own dwelling with his own two hands and mind.

reply to post by wildtimes

If he's willing, have him look at that site.
All the best to him. It's NOT an easy undertaking. He's got a ways to go, but he can do it if he really wants to. It's painful - like divorce.

He thinks no one loves or cares about him. I've told him many times that he's the one who finds it difficult to care about himself because things are rocky in his life right now. He prefers to find his happiness in the bottom of a bottle for the time being, I guess.

reply to post by Serdgiam

Teach him how to explore these things for himself, and you will introduce him to freedom. Perhaps jumping from one label to another has left him feeling disassociated and "homeless." Teach him how to build his own dwelling with his own two hands and mind.

Difficult. He has always had everything handed to him. Every belief, every idea, every interest has always just been handed to him by someone else. Including my particular brand of atheism. No wonder he's struggling with it.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
Difficult. He has always had everything handed to him. Every belief, every idea, every interest has always just been handed to him by someone else. Including my particular brand of atheism. No wonder he's struggling with it.

Yeah, I have no doubt its difficult. He isnt unique in that aspect.

In the end though, he will thank you for being the first person to truly encourage him to find his own Way, instead of relying on others to do it all for him. It isnt easy, thats for damn sure, but it IS worth it.

Your particular brand of atheism is only relevant to you. Much like with his catholicism though, just replacing one structure for another isnt enough. Helping him to build his own, even if it disagrees with yours, is an act of nobility and grace that has nothing to do with a belief, or lack of belief, in a God/s.

reply to post by Serdgiam

Your particular brand of atheism is only relevant to you. Much like with his catholicism though, just replacing one structure for another isnt enough. Helping him to build his own, even if it disagrees with yours, is an act of nobility and grace that has nothing to do with a belief, or lack of belief, in a God/s.

I'm not sure I even want anything to do with his religiosity now. Something tells me that maybe I should just stand back and let it happen on its own...

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
I'm not sure I even want anything to do with his religiosity now. Something tells me that maybe I should just stand back and let it happen on its own...

You might be right, but what's done is done.

At least for me, when I was younger, I "converted" plenty of people to my brand of atheism as well. I now regret it.

The only thing one can do is learn from it. In doing so, you may be able to help him learn from it as well. It has nothing to do with religion, or belief/lack of in a God/s, but it has everything to do with being compassionate and human.

You can help him find his Way, whatever it may be, and in doing so you also have a good chance of learning a thing or two yourself.

It was both of your decisions that led to this point, and both of you can turn it into something that will leave both of you stronger because of the experience.

Teach him to find his own Way, and he will be grateful to your for life. It really has nothing to do with individual beliefs, but *everything* to do with finding out what those beliefs are for us as individuals. Those beliefs tend to change and evolve as we are alive, since we are all constantly growing. But by learning how to learn, we have a platform and foundation for the rest of our lives.

I believe in both you and him. Life can be difficult, the important part is getting through it together, and helping each other learn.

reply to post by Serdgiam


Ah well, the close will be much more composed now. Even if I failed to inspire, at least it wasn't a total burn out. Or was it?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
Or was it?

That will be up to each of us to decide for ourselves.

reply to post by Serdgiam

That will be up to each of us to decide for ourselves.

Did you get anything out of it?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

I'm not sure I even want anything to do with his religiosity now. Something tells me that maybe I should just stand back and let it happen on its own...

I'm really sorry. Anything I write would just seem lame.

However, I did explain the situation to my daughter (atheist) and her response was "Obviously, he wasn't really an atheist."

I have to agree with that, because I've tried to be an Atheist for 20 years approximately, and haven't quite made it. I'm 57 now. My daughter's in her 30s and she's been an Atheist for at least 15 years. I feel so retarded, but I shouldn't lie about it.

For me the hang up is the man Jesus. I can go as far as deny the resurrection, even deny Messiah-hood. For some reason I can't bring myself to deny the man. Even if I assure myself that he's metaphorical, still, to deny Jesus as the metaphorical man, amounts to denying humanity. And I can't bring myself to do that.

The above paragraph should show the actual strength of what you are up against. That's how it is inside me, I don't know how it is in Mr. Cooper. It may be similar. Just in case it is, well anyway,

Best to you and Mr. Cooper. These things aren't easy.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I made a new friend.

I learned more about how my interactions are perceived by others.

I learned that many are wishing and working towards a better future for all of us, but may not have the tools to carry it out.

I furthered my understanding of religion as it pertains to the people in this thread.

I re-discovered just how batty catholicism can really be.

It helped me along in my own understanding of the universe.

It motivated me to continue along my own Path.

It fortified my resolve in my intent with my work.

The thread did many things, AI. Not everything is directly observable though, nor is everything communicable in even the vaguest respect.

I suspect the thread, and its source story, are the beginning of a journey for you and your friend though.

reply to post by pthena


For myself, personally, it wouldn't make a difference either way. I choose atheism because even if the Judaic god were real, even if any of the gods were real, I would not worship or sell my soul to them. Period. Like that Franklin quote about liberties and security...I have the right to choose my own destiny, to be my own master. I will not sacrifice those rights just so I feel better about my responsibilities as a sentient being.

But that's just me.

reply to post by Serdgiam

I made a new friend.

Really? Who? That's something to be proud of, certainly.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Wildtimes!

Id like to think its mutual as well. But, we have had some good discussions through U2U.

reply to post by Serdgiam


She's a wonderful member and contributor to these forums, certainly.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

I choose atheism because even if the Judaic god were real, even if any of the gods were real, I would not worship or sell my soul to them. Period.

I didn't write anything about those gods. Obviously, not all gods are created equal. The needy ones are best avoided.

Jesus as man is an icon of humanity in my religion. I have every right to call myself a humanist.
Many humanists don't need an icon.

I will not sacrifice those rights just so I feel better about my responsibilities as a sentient being.

I underline this statement to emphasize that I will not add to or subtract from your statement.

reply to post by pthena


In my life, I have found it near impossible to deny how powerful the teachings of Jesus are. When you simplify it, all of the great men and women of history have had the same simple message, from Mother Theresa, to MLK, to Ghandi, and so many more.

At this point, I truly believe "Love one another," is a law of the universe. Perhaps a bit more complex of one than, say, physics.. since it involves what we know as free will. But, the results are amazingly consistent when choosing for or against this one principle.

Since so many great humans have had this message, I would struggle to discard Jesus simply because of the association with religion...

reply to post by Serdgiam

In my life, I have found it near impossible to deny how powerful the teachings of Jesus are. When you simplify it, all of the great men and women of history have had the same simple message, from Mother Theresa, to MLK, to Ghandi, and so many more.

I would recommend that you read the book god is not Great, by Christopher Hitchens.

He starts out as one of the witnesses of Mother Theresa's "miracle" then served as "Devil's Advocate" in the Papal Court's investigation of said "miracle".

Somewhere in this thread I believe I've already quoted about MLK, and in chapter 13 Ghandi is also discussed along with MLK. Things aren't quite what they are often presented as being.

I truly believe "Love one another," is a law of the universe.

Eros is certainly interacting with Chaos. Love one another may be a strong law of the universe, I wouldn't go so far as to say it's the only law however. (heresy, I know)