I Converted A Catholic To Atheism

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Serdgiam

 

It wasn't meant for you. You just happened to be there, and I was too lazy to make another post. Sorry for teh inconvenience. Anyway, it feels this thread has sort of lost purpose.

What was its purpose?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

The primary problem of a theist is that they cannot conclusively prove the existence of a higher intelligence.

The "primary problem" with both, theists and atheists, is that their "beliefs" have blinded them from the possibility that they may be wrong.

Two can play at this game, my friend.

Nope! Three can play at this game!

See ya,
Milt

reply to post by Serdgiam

What was it's purpose? Excellent question. Another poster took a little different tack in order to get the answer.

If you choose not to respond to this, I'll understand. If you want to by U2U, that's fine too.

What were you thinking when you posted this thread? What was your motivation? What was in your heart when you decided you had to tell us about your friend?

Did you want to report a personal triumph? Were you proud of your accomplishment? Did you want to spit in the eye of the Church, or defeat it in some way?

What was your spirit saying when you started the thread?

reply to post by charles1952


I understand that you asked it earlier in the thread.

I was hoping that posing it in less of a... accusatory way might spur on a more relevant response.

If it is left to our own interpretation, I see the difficulty that AI might be having in trying to achieve whatever purpose may seem obvious to him, but left unknown to the rest of us.

It seems that when hard questions are asked, many of us act like a cornered animal lashing out with viciousness. Even when it is asked genuinely, without preconceived notions, the response seems to be the same.

It all goes back to my point of it being the soil, or our cultural story, that drives an unconscious response. Why arent we approaching it consciously? What do you, Charles, feel I could do to improve my interactions with others?

Originally posted by charles1952
I've jumped into this thread a couple of times, but jumped out again just as quickly. Something didn't seem right. Now, I think I know what it is.

AfterInfinity, when asked about what kind of proof was necessary wrote:

Material evidence, not circumstantial speculation and extrapolation.

And that's why this thread is impossible, although it seems to be bringing AfterInfinity quite a bit of amusement, and that's a good thing I suppose.

He wants material proof of an immaterial being. It's identical, logically, to a blind man asking for the weight of "Blue." You can say that blue exists, but it has no weight. Other people can tell him that they know blue exists, but the response will be "Everything has weight, if it exists, it has weight. Since blue doesn't have weight, it doesn't exist."
Or, for another analogy, prove the existence of "Love." No one can. They can say that they experience something they call love, or they do something because of love, but it can't be weighed, seen, or smelled. Material evidence doesn't exist for it.
Atheism demanding this kind of proof is similar to a child asking "If God is everywhere, how come I don't bump into him everytime I move?" One can try to explain, but after a while all you can say is "Let's talk about it when you're grown up a little more."

Or the blind man wanting to know what Blue smells like; the deaf man wanting to know if sound is could be light frequency ultra violet to the red/blue/violet range? No one can prove an existence of "love"only the unique experience of it (thereby existing) and trying to explain that conception as being anything similar to any human creature would be madness. Love is a force just as gravity is a force. I was told that athiests love exponentially and are philanthropists that give to organizations even though they dont believe in them (on the level of the Shileys, Gates, Carnegie foundations). Of course this is not true. Athiests are not conformists that is a sureity, they are out for themselves, are not philanthropists and care nothing for the humanbeing other than the one that THEY bought to fill those new party shoes to wear at the next lovefest.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Indifference in general irritates me.

REALLY? That's all you've shown, to those that aren't willing to "jump on your bandwagon".

See ya,
Milt

reply to post by BenReclused


I would love to say otherwise, but it does appear to be the case.

I attempted to ask genuine questions to a couple of users, with truly genuine interest and curiosity. While it was amongst aggressive posts, it seems I not only get thrown in the "same handbasket" as everyone else who isnt agreeing.. I am even told not to do what they are doing (throwing them in the same handbasket)!

I firmly believe it is a two way street though, and I accept my own responsibility in the course of it. But it seems that learning how to improve is a difficult task. I get insulted and "yelled" at just as a matter of consequence and "being in the way."

Hopefully someone learned something from the exchange. Perhaps I will after it has sunk in a bit, but very few of my questions were answered with anything but the same canned response everyone else received. All I can do is ponder it, and attempt to do better. I suppose it is back to lurking for a while.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

No material evidence of a creator will satisfy the atheist.

Like you would know! You haven't even tried yet!

You know that's not true at all.

Material evidence, not circumstantial speculation and extrapolation.

That's what you've labelled it, and have seen it as, so as to dismiss it as material evidence, you can call it that, voice a shrill opinion and team up with the other atheists as if to claim that that's true and that there's nothing to see there move along... but that doesn't make your opinion, your strong opinion and objection to it as real evidence, a fact.

What if intelligent design were shown you, in the earth, moon, sun, planets and the stars and by extension, the galaxies ie: the whole universe, aimed for this life from it's very origin, what would you call it except "circumstantial speculation and extrapolation".. The two variables that I've clearly shown (eclipse and moon-earth ratio), when taken together and seen for what they've produced (LIFE on earth) can only be either a "coincidence" or to put it bluntly a blind fluke, OR, as a result of a design or a plan whereby the end result has arisen by anticipation and thus with intent, with our life and mankind included, from the macro level, all the way down to the mass of the Higgs Boson, which was umpteen trillion times a trillion times more finely calibrated than expected, so much so the scientists were forced to evoke the anthropic principal, which is very funny.

Realization and recognition of these realities, no matter how astounding or seemingly unbelievable are the implications, even though "God" remains un"defined" merely as the "UCA" or unknown creative agency brings us to a new place of understanding, and a hyper-freedom, in an acceptance and reintegration of which we had no prior conception whatsoever because it used to reside, this knowledge, awareness and understanding, in the blind-spot of an unknown unknown, or what you don't even know you don't know, and in the case of a staunch atheist, what you do not WANT to know even if it was artfully presented by the UCA, right before your very eyes.



There is no material evidence capable of persuading an atheist, including the universe itself and the divine order by which we live move and have our being.

It could be made just for them, the whole of it all, with them included and just to be contrarion they'll remain steadfast, arms-crossed shaking their head in ignorant dismay if not disdain at the suggestion that all of creation was made by the father (first father) for the son (all of us included and integrated) because of love, and even in the case of Jesus as "son of God" that for Jesus it was always and will forever remain all about "we", about "us" nothing more, nothing less, and without compromise, real love, of the same kind he shared with the father from before the foundation of the world. He stood in that ground you see and claimed it for all of us. There too it's an all-or-nothing proposition, but all-inclusive, not exclusive.

"Our father.."

Note the "our"

It's a different kind of reason and a different kind of logic -- the logos -- but once you understand it, what Jesus was trying to teach us, once you really "grok" of it and get a taste for him and his personality and character, and way of thinking, then you see that HE is what makes perfect rational sense, and that everything else is madness, including our former self at least in terms of who we once took ourselves to be, relative to this new stature with Christ as child of God in the family of mankind, changes how you look at yourself (sacred being) and others, no matter their outward appearance or disposition.

"In so far as you did it unto the least of my brothers you did it unto me." (including visiting someone in prison even).

It's a reframe, a new paradigm, and only now are we even just beginning to understand Jesus both as a man and as the love and spirit of the living God who also indwells our consciousness and our heart and soul and would like to make more glorious room for himself as the Godhead in our own God/Christ-realization. So it's HILARIOUS, in the final analysis, in the breakdown and the reintegration and rebirth into a new life.

"I am the resurrection and the life!"

That's better even than "the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."


Best regards, (I take back what we said earlier about the "millstone around the neck, drowned in the sea" etc. and I'm surprised you didn't recognize the playful humor and banter intended I wasn't being malicious at all actually I just like a good gag like the next guy from time to time I hope you can forgive me..),

NAM

reply to post by AfterInfinity

And every time a god comes along, they demand respect, recognition, and obeisance.

One can't believe that, unless one believes there was, or is, a God.

That's what a god does, right?

Well, that IS YOUR assertion: Is that what you truly believe?

See ya,
Milt

reply to post by Serdgiam

Dear Serdgiam,

I'm the one who should be coming to you for advice. Please allow me to explain my thinking to you, and to AfterInfinity if he's watching.

I can rationalize my own actions to myself, and frequently do. When I stop and ask, "What's motivating me here? Are my thoughts and motives pure?" I sometimes get a different answer from what my brain was telling me.

The OP's motives were being questioned and I wanted him to look within himself, set aside the ideas of winning and losing, gaining and saving "face," and consider what was really driving this thread. I tried to make it clear that he didn't have to answer publicly, because that kind of examination is very personal and, sometimes, painful.

I think I can see where my comments might be taken as accusatory, but I really had nothing to accuse him of. I had no idea what his motives and goals were. I wondered if he knew.

After re-reading this three or four times, I realize I'm not conveying what I mean to. AfterInfinity, you're a person with needs and loves like any of us. If you feel you can, tell us what you wanted in this thread. If it's a good thing, we can celebrate with you. If you have a need that isn't being met, maybe someone can help. You're a human sharing the world with us. What can we do to lighten your load? Blast. Even that's not exactly what I want to say, but it's closer.

May I tackle the rest of your post a little later?

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by BenReclused

 

Taking pride in one's positive influences on another is one thing, wanting to be honored for that, is quite another.

Oh, right...that's what Christians do. My bad. NO NO WAIT. That's what GOD does. Sorry, my bad again.

edit on 20-6-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

NO, thats what Satan does (I dont personally acknowlege it as existing some do), and if so believeing itself as usurper to God has every right to insane or sane INTENT. Its a take what I can (without them knowing) catch as catch can the innocents, a sneak attack from behind no warning.

Originally posted by charles1952
I can rationalize my own actions to myself, and frequently do. When I stop and ask, "What's motivating me here? Are my thoughts and motives pure?" I sometimes get a different answer from what my brain was telling me.

It truly is amazing how that works, isnt it? Its kind of what I was referring to with the difference between a path and a goal. So many times, I have come to the realization that that path I was on simply was leading in a different direction than my goal. Frequently, in the exact opposite direction. It is in these times of realization, that I feel I learn the most. They can be true epiphanies, and the beauty is, it is a continual process for me. There is certainly no shortage of "learning" to be had!

The OP's motives were being questioned and I wanted him to look within himself, set aside the ideas of winning and losing, gaining and saving "face," and consider what was really driving this thread. I tried to make it clear that he didn't have to answer publicly, because that kind of examination is very personal and, sometimes, painful.

I think I can see where my comments might be taken as accusatory, but I really had nothing to accuse him of. I had no idea what his motives and goals were. I wondered if he knew.

That painful part hits home for me. I have been through similar experiences. When I look back at what I have done, said, or convinced someone to do/think, I truly regret it now. The approach I took so often just embedded them deeply into their current standing, or destroyed the foundation they had worked so hard to achieve outright. The only way I feel I can make amends is to learn and do better the next time. Always growing.

After re-reading this three or four times, I realize I'm not conveying what I mean to. AfterInfinity, you're a person with needs and loves like any of us. If you feel you can, tell us what you wanted in this thread. If it's a good thing, we can celebrate with you. If you have a need that isn't being met, maybe someone can help. You're a human sharing the world with us. What can we do to lighten your load? Blast. Even that's not exactly what I want to say, but it's closer.

Well said. We are ALL trying to learn here. We ALL make mistakes, stumble, and lash out. We can ALL help each other through it, but I know I have been guilty of kicking someone when they were down instead of lending them a hand. Its such a tough process, you know? But the fruit that comes from it can be divine.

May I tackle the rest of your post a little later?

With respect,
Charles1952

If you were referring to my post, then take all of the time you need. I would truly appreciate your help in becoming a better person, and coming to a better understanding of not only who I am, but who others perceive me to be.

We all have limited time, and I see that you have chosen to take some of yours to give me a helping hand. Thank you.

reply to post by Serdgiam


To celebrate. His celebration, not mine; I just posted on his behalf. But I guess everyone just wants to scare him back to the same prison he just got out of. Can imagine the praise if he had converted to Christianity...

Originally posted by BenReclused
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

Indifference in general irritates me.

REALLY? That's all you've shown, to those that aren't willing to "jump on your bandwagon".See ya,Milt

The wagoneers, the cartage (paying customers), the baggage are still aboard? seems the wagonmaster needs to shorten its whip or they the occupants will inadvertantly become the horses harnessed to the wagon being driven by the lashes; those of "go faster, obey, beasts I weld the lash and I am behind you where you cannot see me, BTW Beasts I am not Dr. Doolittle".

reply to post by charles1952


See my above post.

Originally posted by BenReclused
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

And every time a god comes along, they demand respect, recognition, and obeisance.

One can't believe that, unless one believes there was, or is, a God.

That's what a god does, right?

Well, that IS YOUR assertion: Is that what you truly believe?See ya,Milt

You have to believe in some componant of it to disbelieve in it; as in you recognise IT. Thats not its fault that is your deal you know next to the deal on top of the deal to the left (a plumb bob left hanging from the ceiling you missed).

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Serdgiam

 

To celebrate. His celebration, not mine; I just posted on his behalf. But I guess everyone just wants to scare him back to the same prison he just got out of.

What makes you say that about "everyone?" What do you believe my intentions to be?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Serdgiam

 

To celebrate. His celebration, not mine; I just posted on his behalf. But I guess everyone just wants to scare him back to the same prison he just got out of.

I've done that before, ran back in to a subjective prison cell of my own making after experiencing a taste of real freedom which came as a result of a lot of prayer after a bit of a dark night of the soul (those winds and rain always come against our house, eventually, to test it), but God was still there (as the domain of unfettered, unconstrained freedom), beckoning me to come on out and play and laugh some more. God, the true God is the funniest being in the universe, that was the conclusion that I came to, and that C.S. Lewis is right when he said that "our liberation is God's compulsion", there's no half measures about any of it, so while it's very funny, it's also grave and serious too, which at some level only increases the possibility for still more humor, that's the God I know and love and that God loves us all very dearly, no matter what or who we think he is (nothing would measure up anyway), so His love is unconditional, and therefore this whole thread is mute, even including AI's proud proclamation that he converted a friend of his to atheism.

reply to post by Serdgiam


it seems some are more concerned with how I conveyed the information than the actual information itself, as though they care more about my reaction than the actual event itself. I have explained numerous times where I'm coming from and how I feel about it but no one seems to care. My friend has even explain that he has made this choice of his own free will and is very appreciative of it, but again no one cares.

A bit late to this party, but I just wished to say that it sounded like your friend took a big step on the path of his own personal self-realization.

Do not be surprised if atheism is not his choice in the long run, but he may always be grateful that you assisted him in breaking through one of the inner barriers which was standing in his way.