Institutional Arrogance - Schools denying diplomas

This story really struck home for me. My oldest daughter graduated from high school this May. She was unable to attend her rehearsal because she had a job interview. She told the school she had a job interview and asked to be given her instructions after her interview but they initially refused to consider her situation. They told her that she would be refused graduation. So I called the school and talked to the principal whose tone and sarcasm was reeking with contempt and condescension. She tried to tell me that "never in her 10 years as principal as she EVER let a student attend graduation who missed rehearsal." She tried to say that two other students - one who was in the hospital and another who attended his ceremony from 'alternative school' - were being denied graduation too. I was livid....But I bit my tongue and swallowed the **** sandwich for the best interests of my daughter. After 30 minutes or so, the principal finally agreed that my daughter could attend graduation. However, she told me that if my daughter was not dressed appropriately, drew ANY kind of attention to herself during the ceremony, OR if the family made "excessive noise" during the ceremony, then she would be denied her diploma.

Native American Feather Sparks Graduation Debate: Schools' Tough Rules for Grads

This year, graduation has become a battleground for some school officials and students. With schools tightening restrictions on who gets to walk, seniors are fighting for their rights in the last hours of their high school careers.

Take 17-year-old Chelsey Ramer. Her private school, Escambia Academy, is holding the Alabama grad's diploma and transcripts until she pays a $1,000 fine—all because she hung a lone eagle feather alongside her cap’s tassel during her May 23 commencement ceremony.

Other recent incidents seem just as extreme: In Tennessee, honors student Austin Mendoza was banned from his graduation ceremony after he missed a mandatory rehearsal because he had to go to work to help pay for college.

Having strict policies is a trend that’s been building for a while, though, as 2012 also brought a rash of pushed-out graduates—including Justin Denney, in Maine, whose superintendent sent him back to his seat with no diploma after he impulsively bowed and blew a kiss to his family. "There was no misbehavior. Showboating is not misbehavior," his mother, Mary Denney, had told WMTV News 8. "A bow, a kiss to your mom is not misbehavior. There was no need of my son not getting his diploma."

Also last year, in Cincinnati, high school senior Anthony Cornist was denied a diploma after his family’s “excessive” cheers apparently disrupted the graduation ceremony at Mt. Healthy High. "I will be holding your diploma in the main office," read a letter from principal Marlon Styles, Jr., "due to the excessive cheering your guests displayed during the roll call." He then demanded 20 hours of community service from Cornist, who told the news station, “I did nothing wrong except walk across the stage.”

And then there was Kaitlin Nootbaar, the valedictorian of Oklahoma’s Prague High School, who dared include the word “hell” in her speech. As a result, the school held back her diploma and demanded an apology. “She earned that diploma. She completed all the state curriculum,” her father, David Nootbaar told KFOR-TV news. “In four years she has never made a B. She got straight A’s and had a 4.0 the whole way through.”

People in this country are becoming more absurd everyday. People are so egotistical and arrogant they forgot that people deserve a little fair treatment and maybe a little compassion. People just wan to prove their in charge and be the boss.

I fight the spirit of this demon everyday, i watch everyone around me doing the same thing.

reply to post by CIAGypsy


Wow, I thought the point of going through the motions of school were to prepare our kids for a brighter future. What better way to start their future than with a job. I'm flabberghasted that you went through that for your child to be able to graduate.

I actually read this story earlier and was irked by it too. I just don't understand what they thought was so wrong with it. But lately i'm not really understanding what is going on with the Principals and Teachers in our society. It's almost as if they themselves never graduated. Really how can you earn a diploma and still be that senseless? I honestly feel like people are getting dumber and dumber severly lacking in the common sense department.

It's a shame, our kids deserve better. That girl shouldn't be going through that. I hope it all works out for her.

reply to post by CIAGypsy


I've made it clear on more than one occasion with my Son's school when they have gotten out of line, they can persist in their efforts and regret it or they can cease their efforts and do the right thing. Up to them. I've yet to have to follow through with them...but it sure as hell isn't a bluff.

Regret how you may ask? Well, how would this principle like to spend a fair part of the next school year as the defendant in a 6 figure civil lawsuit named as a direct individual? Don't make the threat if you can't or won't back it up...because they may call it. They came very close ...as in, I was going to file the papers that day...with doing it on me. I think they finally realized, I really had NO humor or bluff in me when I make a statement like that and backed down. They sure didn't back down with snide remarks and cute little threats like that though, and that's where I think the difference is. They knew by that point, they'd be served by the end of the week for the lawsuit if they so much as made a nasty face in my direction.

They aren't Gods, they don't have authority outside the property they work at and that's a pathetic degree of authority as it is. To the kids and parents who allow it? They can and DO work as masters of intimidation and I've sure seen some real clever methods in my years with my Son in this district. They really are professionals at intimidation. You just need to remember that limit to their authority and don't let the game get going in the first place.

Hold the diploma? lol.. Okay..and how much in their life will be held up, over or Kaput for the legal fees they'll be into for a LONG time to come? (Oh..this can be drawn WAYYYYY out if one wants it that way, believe that)

If they carry through on their little threat? Bury their butts in Court. It's the ONLY language they understand and respect. They LIVE by fear and threats to everyone beneath them. They respond to NOTHING short of it.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


You are 100% right. These kids work they're butts off to get through school, and nobody has the right to take that away from them for such silly reasons. The only reason to deny a high school graduate their deploma is if they didn't fulfill the educational requirements.

This is absurd! Kids need to be encouraged to complete their education.

You see that's why I didn't complete high school they're all a bunch of fascists.....ok, that's weak I was an idiot.

Ok, I'm still an idiot, but I'm working on it......kinda.

This article is just asinine (see I know some big words) every other thread is about something just plain stupid in schools, it makes me worry about my kids.

shameful how the world is now days.

Heck, I remember when I graduated back in '78, there was this one black kid that made everyone laugh. He used to go around saying "you know it, you know it." Well we all went up to him and said, you know, you should say "you know it" after they hand you your diploma. Well he did, and everyone had a good laugh. Even the administrators on stage had a chuckle.

Schools have to lighten-up on some things. Graduation ceremonies are not the most entertaining thing, and so what if a kid is excited and wants to show-off. They're still young, it's their time to shine. I remember kids dancing off stage after they got their diploma. It's those impulsive things that make the event memorable.

I just attended my students graduation tonight. All the teachers were told not to shake hands or hug students until after the ceremony. The kids pass right in front of us as they walk off the stage. A lot of kids came up to us, shook hands and hugged us. Sometimes the idea of being so formal and politically correct squelches the emotions these kids, parents and teachers are feeling.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

There is another "language" everybody knows but that would be my plan B.

I was expelled in 11th grade and I had to get my GED. But if I wanted to wear a feather in my cap during graduation, I damn sure would have. (I probably deserved to be expelled, I was kind of a d-bag... But a charming one, I might add.) Haha.

Anyway,
this is just disgraceful. It's a shame to think that just for some petty reason like that, institutions are fining kids $1,000 - or even denying them their credentials. If you want to ban them from walking across the stage, then fine - f*** your stage. - But nobody can just deny you the diploma that you've already earned.

It's all cliche by now, but too bad they couldn't just tell em' to shove it up their a**.

This sounds like zero tolerance policy. I HATE zero tolerance policies.

I've attended a few graduations were the seniors were a little unruly...one boy got his diploma and then back flipped down the aisle. It was really awesome to see. Sure, it wasn't "dignified,"... But it also wasn't extremely disruptive, either.

On the other hand, I've been the official on stage during a fifth grade graduation that got totally out of hand. There were gang members in the audience (heck, a majority of the families are gang members) but that wasn't the problem...the problem is they would not be quiet! They yelled obscenities at the teachers, other parents, AND THE KIDS WHEN THEY WALKED IN. We eventually had to call the cops just to finish the ceremony. Kids couldn't hear their names called, parents couldn't hear...it was bad. Next year our principal told the audience there would be none of that behavior again...and there wasn't.

I remember when I was a senior, I was going overseas after graduation. I had to go get my passport, so I chose to do it during a school pep rally. My theory was I would only miss a pep rally and not anything academic related. The principal told me no, that they did not allow students to leave during pep rallies. I explained my thinking and he still said no. Mom checked me out anyway, but I got marked as unexcused.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Wrabbit, this may be the only way to wake schools up.

I threatened to sue my own school this year bc my son, who has special needs, wasn't receiving the services he's entitled to BY LAW. Any other parent might not have realized they were getting screwed. I knew, though....and had countless meetings with the principal to try and resolve the issue. I've already mentioned in countless other threads that this guy is a joke....he taught eighth grade before becoming an elementary school principal. He doesn't have a clue about you g children.

Anyway, it wasn't until my Union Rep and I went to file the papers that my son was given what he needed....and was entitled to under the law.

Last year was pure torture....I had to mind my ps and qs b/c my principal wants me gone. He has no grounds, though, and I'm an ever present thorn in his side.

He announced that he was cutting a special education teacher's job to save money. So this will lessen the amount of time my son (and all the children) receive services....I've already informed him that he better figure something out bc I will sue.

I never thought I'd be that person...but sometimes it's your only recourse.

reply to post by CIAGypsy


If I had kept up my side of the bargain, e.g, paid the fees, studied hard and got good grades to obtain my diploma, I would definately sue for the diploma I had earned and paid for, or the return of my fees plus compensation. They can't unilateraly change the deal afterwards and start dictating that students also now have to obey additional fascist rules in order to get a diploma, as well as pay for fees, study hard and get good grades.

Has anyone sought legal advice with regard to getting school fees back? Is it a possibility?

reply to post by CIAGypsy


Perhaps you could have told her that you will be talking with your lawyer about how the law applies on this case in that particular state.

I worked for me like a charm with my son when he had problems in school due to stupidity of the school system.

I am starting to see more and more stories about this type of conduct in different states, but where is the law that allowed this type of manipulation of the school system by the states?

Until people gather together and do something about it, nothing is going to happen.

Excellent thread. Overall people really need to get involved with more issues and ensure they are living in a positive world. My son has had so much leeway given to him, as a special needs student, in the modified program, he doesn't have to attend the ceremony, and chose not to, though they wanted him to, and even offered us to go first so we could leave and not stay for 3 hours, though that is the normal rule. But he chose to simply have it mailed but we have bought the dinner and dance and dry grad tickets. And need to find a colorful tie today.
I very much appreciate our more flexible system here.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by CIAGypsy

 

I've made it clear on more than one occasion with my Son's school when they have gotten out of line, they can persist in their efforts and regret it or they can cease their efforts and do the right thing. Up to them. I've yet to have to follow through with them...but it sure as hell isn't a bluff.

Regret how you may ask? Well, how would this principle like to spend a fair part of the next school year as the defendant in a 6 figure civil lawsuit named as a direct individual? Don't make the threat if you can't or won't back it up...because they may call it. They came very close ...as in, I was going to file the papers that day...with doing it on me. I think they finally realized, I really had NO humor or bluff in me when I make a statement like that and backed down. They sure didn't back down with snide remarks and cute little threats like that though, and that's where I think the difference is. They knew by that point, they'd be served by the end of the week for the lawsuit if they so much as made a nasty face in my direction.

They aren't Gods, they don't have authority outside the property they work at and that's a pathetic degree of authority as it is. To the kids and parents who allow it? They can and DO work as masters of intimidation and I've sure seen some real clever methods in my years with my Son in this district. They really are professionals at intimidation. You just need to remember that limit to their authority and don't let the game get going in the first place.

Hold the diploma? lol.. Okay..and how much in their life will be held up, over or Kaput for the legal fees they'll be into for a LONG time to come? (Oh..this can be drawn WAYYYYY out if one wants it that way, believe that)

If they carry through on their little threat? Bury their butts in Court. It's the ONLY language they understand and respect. They LIVE by fear and threats to everyone beneath them. They respond to NOTHING short of it.

A dangerous and arrogant assumption by any public employee (the principal also qualifies)
is often one of being indispensable, or better invulnerable.
I think a nice response would be to keep the whole matter out of the Admiralty, and just file a
commercial lein against, say 50% of the principal's personal wages for the next 99 years.

Just for starters.

Maybe later a civil complaint citing subject matter jurisdiction-- wherein the public employee
wasn't authorized to withold a diploma since it was already earned under the standing code.
OOoooh. Official misconduct. Always been one of my favorites for six figures.

They are becoming adept at making those of us not yet totally sedated to become more
evil than they are. Some of my distant relatives have a relatively colorful history: when they
got burned sometimes medieval reprisals occured. I don't even get emotionally involved--
now I get creative.
And this frumpette deserves to have an enforcement strategy tailored for just her.
Nothing like finding out none of your credit cards don't work to wake your @$$ up...I was born
the year of the rabbit, it doesn't make me fuzzy or lovable, but I have the patience of a demon.

Anybody wonder why I haven't been called for jury duty in over seventeen years? Didn't thinkso.

Why should students have to rehearse for graduation? Nobody should have to rehearse, regardless of the reason. The whole thing should be completely impromptu. people should sit or stand whenever or wherever they please.

The kids don't need to shake anyone's hand or pause so the parents can get a picture. They should just mail the diplomas to anyone who doesn't come by to pick one up. If that means that have the class doesn't show, then there will just be a bunch of awkward holes where the name is called and everyone looks around to see if anyone will claim the diploma.

Just because your child has better things to do, should not be a reason to exclude her.

Everyone should have the right to only participate in the parts of public life that they want to.

They should be able to wear whatever graduation colors they want. Feathers, ass-less chaps, whatever. In fact, they could make it a costume party and people could dress any want.

The whole thing is not about the institution, or the meaning of a diploma. It's about your own kid.


People should be able to pick and choose the parts they care about, and screw the rest. The school exists to serve students; so graduation should be ABOUT them. Not about rules.

Yes, I could have pulled the lawyer card and said I was going to sue the school if they refused to let my daughter walk. However, that kind of language in the conversation would have only made the principal dig her pathetic, arrogant heels in and refused to allow my daughter to walk for her graduation. In fact, the principal made quite a show of purposely BAITING ME and hoping I would say something to give her reason to say I was "being offensive or unreasonable" (which I was NOT in any way, shape, or form). Getting angry, raising my voice, or making threats (legal or otherwise) would have only served to keep my daughter from getting her diploma. Yes, we could have sued afterward and probably won....but at what cost to my daughter? She did nothing wrong. I didn't see the point in allowing her to suffer the emotional consequences of not getting to stand up there with her class and show that SHE MADE IT. To a kid, that is a big deal....and you have to remember that she IS still just a kid.

That being said...someone, somewhere, has to make a stand or this kind of behavior will simply continue. Schools have little to NO accountability on punishment. They seem to be able to dole it out as they see fit because they play the "we are keeping kids safe" card. More times than not, they overreact, punishment does NOT fit the crime, or they lack applicable common sense.

Where does the line get drawn???

We had some of this jackass behavior - not from the principals or teachers but from the board of education back when we were graduating high school.

We made it a point to inform them that we were now voters...and we put one of the seniors on the ticket as a candidate for superintendent. He missed being elected by something like 50 votes. They got the message and the crap stopped. Losing their jobs is the thing that gets their attention. If you look back at the voting record in your county, you'll likely find that there aren't more than 500 votes for any school board member or the sup unless you live in LA or NYC.

It's REALLY easy to displace them. And they figure you won't. You could mount a brisk online campaign and dump the entire board and the superintendent, they could go back to flipping burgers. Most of them don't have backup jobs.

reply to post by tovenar


With all due respect, your post was just absurd to the extreme. No one is saying or suggesting that people should be allowed to do whatever they want or flaunt the law (in the case of wearing ass-less chaps). But you also don't need the extreme in the other direction and have such rigidity that you don't work with people who have extenuating circumstances. I mean COME ON....if my kid had been the one in the hospital and the principal refused to allow my kid to graduate because they had been in the hospital during the rehearsal, I'd have been raging pi$$ed. As I already said, this is a very important psychological moment for these kids....and to deny them that moment because you want a power trip and refuse to use common sense, well...you deserve to be taken to the woodshed.

Can't say I'm surprised by this. Going as far back as 1994 when my cousin graduated high school, admins have been pulling this kind of dreck. When I got to high school, we were told the same thing, and it was even in our hand books. Completely ridiculous.