The Fall of Rome

Sometimes, most of the time, we are in control of our actions and our free will is intact. But if there is one thing that I know, it is that changes in brain chemistry can result in changes in behavior. I have noticed this personally simply from changing between anti-depressants, and other members on ATS have shared their own life experiences on this. There are many theories about the fall of the Roman Empire, and the one that I always found to be the most interesting was lead poisoning in the water supply.

There are a few different sources of the lead poisoning, by the way, not just one. The main source was possibly the lead used in pans to boil acidic fruit juices into wine. However, two other sources included lead glazes on cookware and eating or drinking utensils, and another, very notable one, was the use of leads in aqueducts and piping. Remember, the Romans were known for shipping water down from the snowy mountain peaks to the cities.

Lead Poisoning and Rome

Decline of the Roman Empire: Lead Poisoning (Wikipedia)

Now check out this video on the Roman Aqueducts.



It should give you a bit of a feel for Rome, as well as introduce you to two excited British scientists. Next, check out this video by LMFAO.



Did you notice the change in the character between the two sets of male protagonists? The two British scientists and the two Party Rockers (I like party rock and LMFAO)?

So, back to poisoning the water supply. There is something poisoning our water supply, and it is not fluoride that I am talking about, it is estrogen from birth control pills.

While environmentalists are usually vocal about perceived threats ranging from pesticides to global warming, there is a silence when it comes to one threat already harming the water supply: hormones from birth-control pills.

According to the National Catholic Register, EPA-funded scientists at the University of Colorado studied fish in a mountain stream near Boulder, Colo., two years ago. When they netted 123 trout and other fish downstream from the city’s sewer plant, they found 101 were female, 12 were male, and 10 were strange “intersex” fish with male and female features.

It’s “the first thing that I’ve seen as a scientist that really scared me,” university biologist John Woodling told the Denver Post. Read more at www.wnd.com...

Birth Control Pills Poisoning Everyone?

That is true, as the restrictions created in the 1980's for monitoring water quality did not mention estrogen at all. Therefore, the water treatment plants are not removing the estrogen from the water supply and it is coming into our drinking glasses, and apparently, the ecosystem as well.

At this time, I have not researched the effects of lead and estrogen on people or society, or compared the lead to what specifics lead to the fall of Rome. I would need to then compare the effects of estrogen on an individual to the hypothetical effects of estrogen on society and see if there were any matches in order to continue with this project. I will probably make a second thread.

What I am saying is, if we have estrogen in our water supply, it will affect the brain chemistry of individuals in that society, and that will affect their behavior. This exact topic was brought up by the professors a few occasions, as well.

This I know for certain based on my many, many courses I took for my psychology major.

"First, check out this historical video about Roman Aqueducts. Next, check out this music video by LMFAO."

Really though, check out the videos to notice the cultural difference. The LMFAO video even is a story about a society that falls apart from too much partying.

I have been saying similar about the estrogen in the water supply for quite some time. Usually its short sighted thinking that gives us these problems. I recall something about a drug found in the water supply of a major European city in large amounts. It does make one wonder about what else is making it's way through our water supply.

reply to post by darkbake


Estrogen in the water...could explain why some men think they are girls and want to have sex with other men.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Well, I don't know the effect of estrogen on the water supply, and this issue you bring up is bound to be a controversial one, but legitimate I think in this case.

My informed opinion from being a psychology major is that even without water supply contamination, there would be different types of men, some more feminine than others.

However, I would also assume that the estrogen in the water supply would be a contributing factor and have an influence on the spectrum.

S&F

I've never even considered estrogen in the water supply....what a scary thought. I'll be looking into this further.

Well done, my friend.

reply to post by smyleegrl


Thank you Smyleegirl, you should. And let me know what you find out. My suspicions are that it is a big deal, like I said, as a psychology major we even brought up the subject before in a class or two.

It doesn't take a genius to notice behavioral differences in men these days compared to before. The thing is, as a behaviorist, I would look at that behavior and immediately think there was a chemical interaction going on.

I could be wrong, for sure, it might not have a big effect, or it could have a positive effect, or a neutral one, I don't know. I didn't check into that. Or how much estrogen is in the water supply.

The main reason for the fall of Rome was logistical, not chemical. Have you ever tried to do arithmetic with Roman numerals?

reply to post by BadBeast


Well... there is more than one theory about how Rome fell, the prevailing idea, I think, is that it was a little bit of everything. Some question the definition of when it fell, saying it still remains today in an altered form.

reply to post by darkbake


Yeah it's going to be controversial. Not a can of worms i would enjoy opening but the cat is out of the bag. Female growth hormones can dramatically alter brain chemistry which has a direct effect on human behavior, especially concerning members of the opposite sex. Estrogen treatments are what is given to men who want to engage in a sex change operations.

Oh boy....

Whatever the reason for the fall of Rome, I'll bet my left nut it was nothing to do with oestrogen in the water.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by darkbake

 

Estrogen in the water...could explain why some men think they are girls and want to have sex with other men.

This is pure ignorance. Estrogen doesn't make men think they are girls, or else all men will think they are girls since men have some levels of estrogen. Also, testosterone is the male equivalent of estrogen and if testosterone doesn't turn a man straight then estrogen doesn't turn him gay.

Also, just because a man is having sex with another man that doesn't mean they think they are girls.

By the way, to the original poster - I highly doubt estrogen will cause the world to do so much partying that the world collapses.

reply to post by arpgme


No, no probably not. It could just as easily have a positive effect. That would be an extreme case. However, you are a bit off scientifically about what you are saying - estrogen does, in fact, make men act more feminine. That is why estrogen and testosterone are used in trans therapy, for example.

Making some guy think they are a girl? More like making some guy think more like a girl than when they were off estrogen, or more specifically, showing a significant correlation of the above when empirical testing is done on a population. I'll need to be finding studies showing correlations next.

reply to post by darkbake


Beer is a drink with very high amount of estrogen.

reply to post by Cabin


Really?

reply to post by BadBeast


Totally not. The theory presented was about lead.

reply to post by darkbake


I suggest you read a book called "Are We Rome?". It's a very good comparison of western society and Rome late in the empire. It covers everything from military training standards, to mass unchecked immigration, to huge unchecked state spending. There are many many parallels in the scenario. Roman culture, as it were, was very different to our own, but the overall state of things was very very similar.

Some of my favorite parts of the book detail how similar aspects of our society are to theirs even though the fundamental culture is different. For instance, a well known Roman general was particularly good at sieges. When he retired from the Army, he was hired as a consultant for one of the big ballista makers since he had first hand knowledge of what worked and what didn't in the field.

Whats funny is that in the end, the authority of the senate was ignored to the point where the empire really didn't exist anymore. It basically took the new king of Italy to walk into Rome and say, you guys need to disband, you don't exist anymore for the senate to understand. That's something I could definitely see with the US in the next 50 years or so. The federal government behaves so preposterously that states send senators to DC just to keep up appearances, but only enforce state law and ignore federal legislation and authority altogether.

I've heard a theory about Caligula and the lead poisoning.

Also on Caesar and a parasite infection.

And later on the witch-hunts and ergot poisoning.

Ultimately maybe those things played a small part, but I still think genes are overriding.
Culture may also be overriding and influential.
Porn, for example, was only invented with the excavation of Pompeii in the late 19th century, and many of the objects were stored under lock and key, visible only to "esteemed" gentlemen.

Whatever makes some people "genius" may also make them "crazy" in another way.

Of course what ultimately broke apart the Roman Empire was Christianity.

reply to post by Galvatron


Hey man, thanks for that great insight. I think you are right about that, the states might get their independence after all. I haven't heard it spoken so clearly.

I've already noticed incredibly different cultures between each state these days. Personally, I think it is good for the U.S. to have 50 different states, as that diversifies political ideologies, and offers more options for people looking for a living situation they would enjoy as well.

reply to post by darkbake

Originally posted by darkbake
No, no probably not. It could just as easily have a positive effect. That would be an extreme case. However, you are a bit off scientifically about what you are saying - estrogen does, in fact, make men act more feminine. That is why estrogen and testosterone are used in trans therapy, for example.

Feminine does not equal gay.

Yes, I am aware that testosterone can make a person more aggressive and masculine, however, just because they (estrogen / testosterone) has certain qualities does NOT mean it will make people gay.

Some gay people have tried to become straight by reducing estrogen and increasing testosterone and it doesn't work.

There are many "gay therapies" and they always seem to fail.