You are a Jihadi , you just don't know it.

reply to post by SupersonicSerpent


Have you ever read the Old Testament? That "god" was just as nasty when taken out of context.

reply to post by intrepid


Yes, that is the better way of wording it, I would imagine. Certainly a simpler way. It's my understanding that the vast majority of Muslims pursue the greater Jihad of struggle within themselves to improve themselves and their standing with Allah. A noble thing, as I've read and understand it.

The very small % and radical elements being those that take (Lesser) Jihad to be a literal combat against other people and cultures. To the death, as it were.

I'm entirely off in my own opinion on this last part, but I believe Islam certain has both the tenets of war/brutality as well as peace and contentment within it's teachings. Much like Christianity does. The majority of followers pursue the peace and focus on self. Thank goodness...or this would be a nightmare of a world, wouldn't it?

reply to post by mideast

PLEASE, MUSLIMS AND THEIR SUPPORTERS, READ THIS. IT MAY HELP.

Dear mideast,

I don't believe I've ever criticized you, and I won't do it here, either. I don't even have an intellectual argument. I think I just want to express my frustration. I started another thread on Jihadi motivation, and the frustration I experienced there is just bubbling over. This is not personal. And I expect to draw a hopeful and helpful conclusion at the end

Why can't ATS Muslims and their supporters ever learn? EVERY time this subject is brought up, I could write all the responses myself. It's as if there is a script everyone is reading from.

First comes the "No real Muslim would do these terrible things." It contains sub-sections such as "Islam is a religion of peace; there is no violence in Jihad, it's only spiritual; or, there might be a teeny-tiny fraction of a tenth of a percent that get violent, but they're the deranged mental cases every group has."

There are thousands of Islam related terror attacks every year, thousands of deaths caused by people who go to Islamic services in Mosques, travel to Mecca, read the Quoran, call on Allah as they attack, yet they're not Muslims? What are they, manic Presbyterians?

After that comes "Sure we blow up people and buildings, often in countries, and to people, that have never done anything to us, but it's all the West's fault."

Why it's the West's fault may vary a little. It might be that Snookie and Lady Gaga are corrupting Muslims; or the West's meddling after Muslims tried to blow up the WTC under Clinton, then managed it under Bush; or the existence of Israel is intolerable so they have to attack anyone who supports it.

Moral equivalency gets used a lot. Things like "The US still has prisoners in Guantanamo, that proves . . ." followed by three or four different things it's supposed to prove. Or, "The West kills people in drone strikes who are just innocently standing next to terrorist leaders, talking to them about Cricket, so we can kill . . ." Or the ever popular, "You have religious beliefs, we have religious beliefs. Your religious beliefs require you to deny gay marriage ceremonies in some churches, our religious beliefs require us to execute gays near some mosques, same-same."

Also frequently used is "You're government is lying to you; you are fools, deluded, apathetic, and ignorant." (I saw all of those in one post recently.) Which, of course, goes a long way toward creating understanding and friendship.

So, where am I going with all this? What's hopeful? Well, besides my personal catharsis, here's what I can suggest.

Muslims, you're not on a battlefield here. You don't have to conquer, destroy and humiliate the "enemy." If you're serious at all about ending conflict and bringing peace to the land, for the sake of God (literally) do something differently.

First, listen to the people you're talking to. Do you know why they're fearful? I mean, do you really understand it? Can you see it through their eyes? While you might not agree with someone, can't you see that it makes perfect sense in their mind? Until you do, there's not much sense in saying anything at all.

Second, stop the canned responses. By being told the same thing for the twelfth time, I'm persuaded that the Muslim I'm speaking with isn't responding to me. he's just told me that he's found the appropriate page in his handbook to recite from.

Finally, admit that there are a whole bunch of Muslims loose in the world, doing crazy, inexcusable things. If you can't, you discourage any reasonable person from talking with you on any subject at all. It is even better if, after you admit that, you can enter into a serious discussion on how to control those lunatics.

With respect, and hope for a better world,
Charles1952

reply to post by mideast


Islam is based on logic and common sense? i would say its based more on intimidation and violence all throughout history Muslims have tried to force their religion on others like for starters the Muslim conquest in India you burned to the ground India's biggest library of ancient scriptures just becouse it failed to have a Koran in it as well as burning entire cities to the ground and this was before the western world even had anything to do with Islam i dont think we had even crossed paths yet.in my opinion Islam is just a cult that worships a 7th century slave keeper who had a 9 year old wife but you probably disagree.

reply to post by intrepid


but how many Christians do you see carrying out instructions from the old testament? compared to how many Muslims you see still taking 7th century commands.

reply to post by SupersonicSerpent

that wars were not because of Koran but they were for capturing the treasures which were in India by monarchies. I know two treasures like Koh-i-Noor (mountain of light) and Sea of Light.
Islam did not enter India through any war but by Miracle of Muhammad (PBUH). the miracle of splitting of moon.

Cheraman Perumal, (Tajuddin. r.a) king of india-Kodungallur, Kerala (AD 622-628. Hijra 1-7) was the first Indian to accept Islam. Many historians have recorded this fact in their writings. Kerala is a state of India. The state stretches for 360 miles (580 kilometers) along the Malabar Coast on the southwestern side of the Indian peninsula. King Chakrawati Farmas of Malabar was a Chera king, Cheraman perumal of Kodungallure. He is recorded to have seen the moon split. The incident is documented, Hamidulla writes in "Muhammad Rasoolullah [Pbuh]" in a manuscript kept at the India Office Library, London, reference number: Arabic, 2807, 152-173 A group of Muslim merchants passing by Malabar on their way to China spoke to the king about how God had supported the Arabian prophet with the miracle of splitting of the moon. The shocked king said he had seen it with his own eyes as well, deputized his son, and left for Arabia to meet the Prophet in person. He embraced Islam at the hand of the Prophet [Pbuh] and when returning home, at the direction of the Prophet, died at the port of Zafar, Yemen,(salalah Oman) where the tomb of the Indian king was piously visited for many centuries.
theislamshow.weebly.com...

moreover Aieshe (the second wife of prophet Muhammad) was not nine years old. it is a common guess. but there are historical evidences that she was around 17-19.

just to clarify !

Having people of a specific faith try to kill you because their faith demands it is. . . well, it's unsettling.

But I'm okay with people worshipping differently, just as long as their worship does not interfere with my faith or how I live my life.

Jihadi is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose. I'm getting too damned old to concern myself with the theory of war, or any aspect of war. I've spent too much of my life in that arena.

I'm going to wonder down to the arena of peace. Maybe sit a while.

reply to post by maes2

that wars were not because of Koran but they were for capturing the treasures which were in India by monarchies. I know two treasures like Koh-i-Noor (mountain of light) and Sea of Light.
Islam did not enter India through any war but by Miracle of Muhammad (PBUH). the miracle of splitting of moon.

So they were just thieves?

Does the Koran justify theft if the perpetrator is Muslim and the victim is not? Or does it just support theft in general?

reply to post by charles1952

First comes the "No real Muslim would do these terrible things." It contains sub-sections such as "Islam is a religion of peace; there is no violence in Jihad, it's only spiritual; or, there might be a teeny-tiny fraction of a tenth of a percent that get violent, but they're the deranged mental cases every group has."

Islam is not religion of peace with invader. So , it is not religion of peace totally. And Jihad is not just spiritual.

But as I mentioned , those who kill innocent and wrong people are ignorant and manipulated people.

What you don't like to face is that Islam is not what an ordinary human being can accept.

There are many oppressed people who do not find their ways to get to justice and they do horrible things in different names. But the blame is not 100% on these people.

Among these oppressed people there are many Muslims who don't find their way to justice and want to get revenge or ... in the name of Islam. So , they do it.

The problems that they ignore many other things is not the problem of Islam.

Like GWB that said "god told me to invade Iraq in a rose garden" and many Americans bought that. He claims to be Christian and he started war on two Muslim countries in three years. Does that mean that all Christians are GWB ?

So , there are examples that can show you that some Christian leaders and people did horrible things , but that doesn't mean Christ pbuh was not a loveful prophet.

So , it is a sign that you don't judge religions fairly and ignore many facts.

There are thousands of Islam related terror attacks every year, thousands of deaths caused by people who go to Islamic services in Mosques, travel to Mecca, read the Quoran, call on Allah as they attack, yet they're not Muslims? What are they, manic Presbyterians?

After that comes "Sure we blow up people and buildings, often in countries, and to people, that have never done anything to us, but it's all the West's fault."

Another sign that you don't judge fairly , is that you claim that thousands of millions of hundred Muslims kill other people , but you don't consider that US govt has started war in Afghanistan , Iraq , Libya. And it has backed terrorists in Iran and Syria.

You think that people get candy in these wars and guns throw flowers ?

Another sign of you unfair judgment is that you neglect what US govt has done in Vietnam and Japan and gulf war , and you keep up critisizing in one way.

Another sign of you unfair judgment is that you ignore is that the Mad Saddam was the same Saddam which US helped with WMDs during his invasion on Iran. The mad Qaddafi was the same Qaddafi which Us was supporting for years. The mad Al-Qaeda is the same Al-qaeda which did 9/11 and is being helped by west and western puppets. So , US govt helps the lunatic minorities to get to it's achievements , and when they don't need that lunatic , they start MSM advertising. Just like dictator Shah and dictator Saudi king , Qatar king , Bahrain king and...

Another sign of you unfair judgment is that you ignore the money of western govts and puppets get to the terrorist groups that may turn back on Europe and US ASAP. This is the same 9/11 Al-Qaeda , the same old AQ that is founded by Saudi kings and their elite families such as OBL family.

Also frequently used is "You're government is lying to you; you are fools, deluded, apathetic, and ignorant." (I saw all of those in one post recently.) Which, of course, goes a long way toward creating understanding and friendship.

OK , what do you wan me to do ? Should I say "keep on coming to middle east , keep on destroying middle east " ??

No one said you are fools.

Finally, admit that there are a whole bunch of Muslims loose in the world, doing crazy, inexcusable things. If you can't, you discourage any reasonable person from talking with you on any subject at all. It is even better if, after you admit that, you can enter into a serious discussion on how to control those lunatics.

I have said this during my replies , but I never ignore the fact that they seek justice and equality which west doesn't want to give them.

West looks at them like foolish owners of great resources. And it thinks that , rubbing a retarded rich person is not immoral thing. They should be wise in the first place.

And while west is keeping on attacking on Muslims mentally and physically , it is not logical to see that Muslims surrender all their lands and resources to show how peaceful they are to the west. Is that what you want ? Is it justice ? is it equality ? is this fair ?

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

I'm entirely off in my own opinion on this last part, but I believe Islam certain has both the tenets of war/brutality as well as peace and contentment within it's teachings. Much like Christianity does. The majority of followers pursue the peace and focus on self. Thank goodness...or this would be a nightmare of a world, wouldn't it?

And the good part is that we die after , at most 100 years , and we don't have to see ignorance and bloodshed for eternity.

I better make it clear that greater Jihad teaches Muslims that this life is not going to last for eternity and that Muslims should surrender and be happy with what gives them in their lives , or takes from from their lives.

But in the same time , there is lesser Jihad which teaches them that they should defend themselves , the weak , their honor and their properties.

That is the truth of straight line which Muslims speak of , in their prayers. (but it is not the whole truth)

Originally posted by SupersonicSerpent
a 7th century slave keeper who had a 9 year old wife but you probably disagree.

edit on 30-5-2013 by SupersonicSerpent because: (no reason given)

Do you know how old Rachel was when Jacob hit up Laban to marry her? 11. I love it when people don't know all the facts.

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by maes2

 

that wars were not because of Koran but they were for capturing the treasures which were in India by monarchies. I know two treasures like Koh-i-Noor (mountain of light) and Sea of Light.
Islam did not enter India through any war but by Miracle of Muhammad (PBUH). the miracle of splitting of moon.

So they were just thieves?

Does the Koran justify theft if the perpetrator is Muslim and the victim is not? Or does it just support theft in general?

you are asking questions which you are well aware of the answers. the answer is NO. not for muslims and not for others. of course some corrupted monarchies may have done many things in the name of monotheistic religions, but this can not alter the truth.
what I mentioned was not about a simple robbery. that was about wars between monarchies.
monarchies of old Iran and India. or Ottomans and Europe,...........
it is logical and rational that one can not force anyone to believe in any belief. after the removal of that force people would throw out that foreign belief.

Originally posted by butcherguy
Weird how we have to be told that jihad is good. Maybe because we see the stories about Christians being imprisoned for possessing a Bible in an Islamic country, or having their heads cut off.... simply because they are Christian.

Look at one of the worst Christian groups that we have here in the US... the Westboro Baptists.... Have they been chopping heads off of Muslims???
Does our government imprison Muslims simply because they are Muslims?

\
Ok, first off, look back at the crusades. Millions have died in the name of the Christian (/Catholic) God. Many have died in the name of all 'organized' religion.

Chris Rock said it best in Dogma:
It's dumb to take a good idea, and build a belief system on it. Ideas are easy to change. Belief systems aren't.

That's exactly how I feel. We all exist on this fragile little planet that -we- are sucking the life out of. We should work together. We should love eachother as we love ourselves. It's like majority of the people on Earth, regardless of country, religion, or race; just don't care anymore.

It is interesting how some people take one aspect of an idealogy and twist it to mean a negative thing. It is even sadder when they're able to convince the majority that their twisting is accurate.

If you asked a muslim "Do you support Jihad?" or "Would you partake in Jihad?" or "Is Jihad good?", they'd probably answer yes to all of those. But the questioner and the questionee are taking two very different interpretations of jihad. Certainly, Jihad is not exclusively and totally "peaceful". There is an offensive component to it in the Quran. But there is also a not fighting those who didn't attack you. There is also not attacking innocents. There is also accepting peace when it is offered. There is also proper treatment of those who ask for asylum or surrender.
But despite all that, all that is in the mind of the questioner is "This guy wants to kill us all".

The same with Shariah. If you ask a muslim "Do you follow or try to follow shariah?" or "Do you support shariah?" then they'd again probably say "Yes". But while the questionee would be hearing "Do you support being honest?" or "Do you agree with treating your neighbours nicely and giving to charity?", the questioner is hearing "Yes, I support beheading christians and stoning people and killing people who make fun of Islam".

Yes, there are certainly "muslims" who claim to be doing "Jihad" and kill civilians and do acts of terrorism. Just like there are american presidents and "insane" norwegians who claim to be participating in a crusade. Odd how one claim is taken seriously and the other is dismissed as hyperbole. People of all cultures and all over the world and throughout time use and used religious terminology to garner support for actions and engagements that had nothing to do with religion at all.

reply to post by jjsr420

Ok, first off, look back at the crusades. Millions have died in the name of the Christian (/Catholic) God. Many have died in the name of all 'organized' religion.

Ok. I just looked back. Crusades... Muslims and Christians killing each other, both sides committing atrocities.

Let us go to the present now. This is where we are and the time in which we can cause things in the future to be better.

Christians are not (today) going around committing acts of terrorism and backing their actions with what is written in the Bible.
Countries that still have a majority Christian population are not imprisoning Muslims for owning a copy of the Koran.

Try owning a copy of the Bible in some Islamic countries. Today.... not the 11th century!

reply to post by butcherguy

Please tell me which country you are talking about. I've never heard of any country today that beheads or kills or even imprisons someone for owning a copy of the Bible.

There are occasional news stories from Saudi Arabia about Bibles been confiscated from luggage upon entry, but this is certainly not a regular occurrence, and is nowhere near what you are on about.

reply to post by babloyi

Hundreds of examples in over 70 countries.

www.wikiislam.net...

Some are for possession of Bibles, or not observing Ramadan, or attending Christian service. There's a lot here.

Further:

Four foreigners were detained last week in Benghazi, Libya, on charges of printing and distributing materials that promote Christianity. The embattled missionaries are from South Africa, South Korea, Egypt and Sweden, with the latter individual also holding U.S. citizenship. Despite a revolution just two years ago, it is still illegal to share any faith other than Islam, with the death penalty serving as a potential ramification.

www.theblaze.com...

And:

Tashkent (AsiaNews/F18) - The Uzbek authorities have sentenced a Protestant Christian in Urgench, in the northwest of the country to 18 months of "corrective labor", charged with "illegal production, storage, importation or distribution of religious materials." The judge Makhmud Makhmudov ruled that the woman should carry out menial jobs at the complete service of the state, while a good part of her salary be handed over as payment of a fine. In addition, for the next few months she can only travel within the state.

In a second incident of violation of religious freedom, a group of people in the capital were sentenced to heavy fines for "gathering" to pray and read Christian material (a Bible) in a private home.

Local sources said that the secret police artfully assembled fake evidence to nail Sharofat Allamova, who was then convicted in a sham trial. The possession of religious materials is strictly controlled by the State, with a heavy censorship of the Committee for Religious Affairs, which often targets the Christian minority.

The double raid on the private home took place in January and the court only ruled on the case recently, in accordance with Article 244-3 of the Criminal Code. Already in May 2012 she had suffered similar punishment, again for possession of religious materials. In addition to the confiscation of the Bible and other texts, the biggest fear is that the woman can be shipped to the cotton fields for the autumn harvest. As repeatedly denounced by organizations and activists, the state uses the work of minors and convicts for the grueling task.

88% of the Uzbek population is of the Sunni Muslim faith while Christians make up 8%. In the country, confessional freedom is subject limited by the government. The annual report of the U.S. Commission on Religious Freedom, published on April 30, under the heading "Countries subject of particular attention" included a list of 15 governments including that of Tashkent.

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by babloyi

 

Hundreds of examples in over 70 countries.

www.wikiislam.net...

Some are for possession of Bibles, or not observing Ramadan, or attending Christian service. There's a lot here.

Further:

Four foreigners were detained last week in Benghazi, Libya, on charges of printing and distributing materials that promote Christianity. The embattled missionaries are from South Africa, South Korea, Egypt and Sweden, with the latter individual also holding U.S. citizenship. Despite a revolution just two years ago, it is still illegal to share any faith other than Islam, with the death penalty serving as a potential ramification.

www.theblaze.com...

And:

Tashkent (AsiaNews/F18) - The Uzbek authorities have sentenced a Protestant Christian in Urgench, in the northwest of the country to 18 months of "corrective labor", charged with "illegal production, storage, importation or distribution of religious materials." The judge Makhmud Makhmudov ruled that the woman should carry out menial jobs at the complete service of the state, while a good part of her salary be handed over as payment of a fine. In addition, for the next few months she can only travel within the state.

In a second incident of violation of religious freedom, a group of people in the capital were sentenced to heavy fines for "gathering" to pray and read Christian material (a Bible) in a private home.

Local sources said that the secret police artfully assembled fake evidence to nail Sharofat Allamova, who was then convicted in a sham trial. The possession of religious materials is strictly controlled by the State, with a heavy censorship of the Committee for Religious Affairs, which often targets the Christian minority.

The double raid on the private home took place in January and the court only ruled on the case recently, in accordance with Article 244-3 of the Criminal Code. Already in May 2012 she had suffered similar punishment, again for possession of religious materials. In addition to the confiscation of the Bible and other texts, the biggest fear is that the woman can be shipped to the cotton fields for the autumn harvest. As repeatedly denounced by organizations and activists, the state uses the work of minors and convicts for the grueling task.

88% of the Uzbek population is of the Sunni Muslim faith while Christians make up 8%. In the country, confessional freedom is subject limited by the government. The annual report of the U.S. Commission on Religious Freedom, published on April 30, under the heading "Countries subject of particular attention" included a list of 15 governments including that of Tashkent.

Seriously man. You keep posting crap from anti islam sites, presenting it as the ultimative truth.
You're a Jew so let me ask you this. How do you feel about sites such as Jewwatch ?

Nice to see how things are twisted. Not

As if Jihadi are heros!

reply to post by intrepid


and how old was jacob?