How can you really test the paranormal

I am honestly curious about this issue as it has been on my mind for quite some time. It seems the only way to truly convince someone something like ghosts, for example, exist is through personal experience. Even then personal perception is not statistically accurate, nor hearsay credible. I, and many others, crave for there to be some sort of method to clearly test such sightings and events.

This of course is applied to the assumption that these things really do exist, and science does not work this way. Science attempts to explain a natural occurring phenomenon. It does not attempt to devise tests on things some would say do not exist at all.

Unfortunately I'll have to retort the usual by saying that (although i am quite a sceptical person naturally) i do believe in what can be referred to as "ghosts". why? simply through experiences.

Thus the problem. Not only do i wish to prove to all that this phenomenon does exist, but i want to confirm to myself that what i have seen is indeed what many would declare an apparition.


So, scientifically, how would one legitimately prove such a case?

reply to post by Ghost147



Die

That will be the ONLY REAL Test.

EDIT:

I might also add that there are some that believe because of an Experience that they have had , that, to them, offers better results than Any test Proving it or Denying it..

A definition from dictionary.com:

Par·a·nor·mal
[par-uh-nawr-muhl]
adjective
of or pertaining to the claimed occurrence of an event or perception without scientific explanation, as psychokinesis, extrasensory perception, or other purportedly supernatural phenomena.

Su·per·nat·u·ral
[soo-per-nach-er-uhl, -nach-ruhl]
adjective
1. of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.
2. of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or attributed to God or a deity.
3. of a superlative degree; preternatural: a missile of supernatural speed.
4. of, pertaining to, or attributed to ghosts, goblins, or other unearthly beings; eerie; occult.

Source

To put simply, you can't test the paranormal fully because part of the reason the term exists is that it has to be beyond or above nature. Such an anomaly has to contradict science or be beyond its testing.

Science exists within nature and material, and good theories work by making predictions about natural occurrences. If science could predict a supernatural event, then the event would cease to be supernatural in and would become just another part of the natural world.

Philosophically you can make arguments for supernatural events, and that may be the best evidence for the time being unfortunately.

If we're making a case for ghosts being a natural event, or communication from the beyond being a natural event that science can test for ... I can think of a handful of possible proofs.

1. A supernatural event manages to predict events or reveal truths which science cannot on a regular testable basis
2. Neurology or a similar field investigates a supernatural event within the mind and can reveal a 'second party' or repeatable event that could not be explained by mental illness
3. A force which cannot be measured influences the real world multiple times in an environment which can be tests to show that the force cannot be explained, and that force demonstrates intelligence

The issue is, if supernatural events are real ... they tend not to happen repeatably or in a testable way. If they truly are outside of nature then we will never know until a new form of investigation emerges which can enter that realm or some large shared human experience occurs.

There is a recent book by a neurologist about NDEs I'd recommend reading as it's one of the few compelling things I've read in a while with some sense of science behind it. U2U if you can't find it but it's on the best seller list at the moment.

Hope it helps.

Originally posted by ShadellacZumbrum
reply to post by Ghost147

 

Die

That will be the ONLY REAL Test.

EDIT:

I might also add that there are some that believe because of an Experience that they have had , that, to them, offers better results than Any test Proving it or Denying it..

edit on 21-5-2013 by ShadellacZumbrum because: (no reason given)

I should hope that is not the only way to test this phenomenon (although it would be quite accurate )

Hah, and I'm well aware that many people would believe that. Unfortunately, as I stated in my original post, that's not good science, nor accurate.

Originally posted by Pinke
A definition from dictionary.com:

Par·a·nor·mal
[par-uh-nawr-muhl]
adjective
of or pertaining to the claimed occurrence of an event or perception without scientific explanation, as psychokinesis, extrasensory perception, or other purportedly supernatural phenomena.

Su·per·nat·u·ral
[soo-per-nach-er-uhl, -nach-ruhl]
adjective
1. of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.
2. of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or attributed to God or a deity.
3. of a superlative degree; preternatural: a missile of supernatural speed.
4. of, pertaining to, or attributed to ghosts, goblins, or other unearthly beings; eerie; occult.

Source

To put simply, you can't test the paranormal fully because part of the reason the term exists is that it has to be beyond or above nature. Such an anomaly has to contradict science or be beyond its testing.

Science exists within nature and material, and good theories work by making predictions about natural occurrences. If science could predict a supernatural event, then the event would cease to be supernatural in and would become just another part of the natural world.

Philosophically you can make arguments for supernatural events, and that may be the best evidence for the time being unfortunately.

If we're making a case for ghosts being a natural event, or communication from the beyond being a natural event that science can test for ... I can think of a handful of possible proofs.

1. A supernatural event manages to predict events or reveal truths which science cannot on a regular testable basis
2. Neurology or a similar field investigates a supernatural event within the mind and can reveal a 'second party' or repeatable event that could not be explained by mental illness
3. A force which cannot be measured influences the real world multiple times in an environment which can be tests to show that the force cannot be explained, and that force demonstrates intelligence

The issue is, if supernatural events are real ... they tend not to happen repeatably or in a testable way. If they truly are outside of nature then we will never know until a new form of investigation emerges which can enter that realm or some large shared human experience occurs.

There is a recent book by a neurologist about NDEs I'd recommend reading as it's one of the few compelling things I've read in a while with some sense of science behind it. U2U if you can't find it but it's on the best seller list at the moment.

Hope it helps.

Hm, I'll have to take a look at it then.

Your argument would have been mine not too many months ago. After some pondering on it I wondered again how if something supernatural occurs in the natural world, does that not make it natural? After all, many things in the recent past was considered supernatural until modern science had been able to naturally explain it. There are other things (once again something I cannot offer any explanation or proof of) that can occur that can indeed be investigated with a possible outcome (an example may be substances spontaneously oozing from walls/furniture and hardening into a cement-like product).

These issues make me ponder what may really be possible in the realm of science. Would you not agree?

To simply be the experience of para-normality, is in itself, the answer.

Certainly, just because something is counter-intuitive, it doesn't mean it isn't scientific. Quantum mechanics, for instance, is very counter-intuitive based on our understanding of the material world. But, even though we don't fully understand how it works, we know THAT it works... it is one of the most successful theories in physics. It has never failed.

Paranormal things aren't so repeatable. That's the biggest hurdle, as far as I can tell. The scientific method is a fantastic tool for understanding our world and our universe, but it does have limitations. Our current thinking is problematic because we assume if we cannot form a predictive model about something that it must not be true. It is the trappings of current mainstream thinking. There is a slow evolution in science, very slow, that started with quantum physics. We are very slowly moving away from such strictly classical understandings of the world. We are learning more of how much we don't know and understand and how limited our tools (including the scientific method) truly are. I'm sure a thousands years from now we will look back and see this as a dark ages of science. Things aren't as simplistic as we've popularly believed them to be since the time of Galileo. They are much more complex and WEIRD than that.

Given the tools and limitations we have today (scientifically and culturally) I don't know how the paranormal could be proven to anyone's satisfaction. I've always wished, though, that a team of scientists and skeptics - true skeptics as in doubters not deniers - would find an active haunted house, seal it off for a year or two and simply collect data and run experiments. But finding the money and inclination for such an experiment is very unlikely.... and, at least in today's climate, it would be career suicide for any that are participating if they found something.

Originally posted by Ghost147
There are other things (once again something I cannot offer any explanation or proof of) that can occur that can indeed be investigated with a possible outcome (an example may be substances spontaneously oozing from walls/furniture and hardening into a cement-like product).

These issues make me ponder what may really be possible in the realm of science. Would you not agree?

I think the issue for me is the science catch-22.

If a substance is oozing from the walls, and science cannot explain the origin, then it may be paranormal.

If a substance is oozing from the walls, and science can explain it ... then it is likely not paranormal.

Science may be able to tell us the substance is blood, or something else, but in a true supernatural event would science tell us where it came from? Could it confirm its paranormal nature?

Originally posted by VegHead
Certainly, just because something is counter-intuitive, it doesn't mean it isn't scientific. Quantum mechanics, for instance, is very counter-intuitive based on our understanding of the material world.

Science is often counter-intuitive, but paranormal activity by its very nature (to my understanding) must go against science. For example, if I suddenly floated with no reasonable explanation, this would be paranormal. If I suddenly float because of Pinke's super aweso jetpack ... is just science.

Our current thinking is problematic because we assume if we cannot form a predictive model about something that it must not be true.

Not entirely true. There are objective facts outside of science such as 'we have a consciousness'. That's quite probable, actually I would call it a fact.

I would also say that this type of truth is quite old, and not really something we're developing. Sometimes I think people forget about it, especially persons born of science. The issue when someone finds truth through methods other than science is they have a tendency to embrace it over all other things.

Maybe we can look at the fluid in the wall, deduce facts about it and use other types of reasoning to deem it supernatural but I think it's very hard to prove a supernatural event in the field of science since it will likely be deemed as an 'unknown'.

reply to post by Ghost147


That might not be "Good Science" However, I myself was a drowning victim and had a near death experience when I was 8 years old. I will not go into the details here but, from my experience and what I saw, it is as good as CONCRETE Evidence for me. There is No test, regardless of how accurate, that could make me believe anymore than I already do.

As far as my experience goes it is my word against anyone who does Not believe in something that they cannot see.

Like I said before there are those who believe in the paranormal based on an experience they have had without the aid of a test.

reply to post by ShadellacZumbrum


Yes, I understand, and I would agree with you too. But, I am attempting to find a way to let the general public in on what we would consider sound evidence. As the other posters have stated too, At the moment where science currently exists we may not be able to explain such events. That is, of course, someone here can offer up something that may change that statement

reply to post by Ghost147


Through scientific tests.

Just because a ghost is a disembodied spirit, doesn't mean that it isn't composed of something, even if its something which we cannot necessarily quantify just yet.

Consider dark matter. Science is aware of dark matter, not because we can directly observe it, but because we can observe its absence. The space between stars and galaxies is something, even though we cannot necessarily quantify it just yet. The same with black holes. We know, or science's theory is, that a black hole exists here, or there, based on the lack of light, or the warp of gravity, etc.

Ghosts, specters, spirits, wights, phantoms, spooks, and all other manner of ethereal creatures ---if they truly do exist--- must be composed of something. Whether that's "spirit", or "ectoplasm", or "energy", or anything else which you would like to call it, that substance must exist in some spectrum. Whether as motion, as visible light, as energy waves, or something else.

Discover what a ghost is composed of, and measure it.

~ Wandering Scribe

I don't think we really have the means yet to put the paranormal to the test once and for all. Though I have no doubts that one day, paranormal events will finally either be debunked or actually measured through scientific means.

reply to post by Ghost147


The best piece of equipment I have ran into taking care of a client- Baby Monitor with the camera and monitor. I have been through allot since Sept-2006. I have been through issues that I could not explain much less talk to anyone about. I was taken by somethings back in Sept-2006 en-route to work for US Customs and Border Patrol in Piegan, Montana. I was taken from a Bridge in Charleston, West Virginia near the Amtrak Station and put on another Bridge about 1 or 2 miles from where I was located. I was attempting to walk to a hotel from the Amtrak Station. I was found walking around in shock. I never made it to my duty station and had to return home to NC. I came back talking about being taken by Aliens. Since this incident I have had numerous other incidents that have occurred. All I could do is file reports with Mufon and keep a journal. As these types of incidents occur there is really not much help out there. There is really nothing anyone can do except take precautions. I have just had to learn how to live with this issue and continure with everyday life. About 2 weeks ago I had a home health care job looking after a client from 7pm to 7am. This clients family had a Baby Monitor with the camera and monitor. My client was in the bedroom with the camera. I was in the living room watching and listening to the monitor. The first weird thing I noticed was a blue light show up in my clients bed. I have seen all kinds of weird things so this didnt upset me to bad. I was concerned and got up and went in the bedroom to check on my client. She was sleeping and I could not see the blue light. I felt uncomfortable but I stayed in the living room and just sat there. I then started hearing a Male Voice like some kind of something I cannot even explain- Demon? I dont know but it scared the hell out of me. Who did I have to call?? No-One- and try and explain that I had somekind of Demon in the house with us. This clients grandson is a Sheriff Department Officer whom was jus right across the street- but I was afraid to even call him. I guess I just thought he would not believe me. I also saw tall grey somethings messing around in the yard earlier. I have seen these things before and just ignore them- but this male demon voice on the baby monitor was new. I felt sort of helpless- whatever was going on- there was really no-one to call for assistance. I dont know if these beings follow me around or if they were already just there. Anyway, so many years have passed and so many strange things had happen to me. The baby monitor would be a great tool for someone to use with me while I am sleeping to pick up whatever these creatures are that have bothered me since 2006. If there was a way to add a recording device to the baby monitor and infra-red technology to this type of system this would provide proff that something is going on. I do not have anyone to sit around and watch me sleep and monitor me. I could record my-self if I had the equipment. Anyway, The Demon Voice on the Baby Monitor got to much for me to handle and I just turned the volume off. I continued to check on my client through the night. My client was fine and sleeping. It was almost like so much goes on around us all that we cannot always hear or see. It is nice to know there is equipment out in this world that can pick such things up. I didnt mention this to my clients family. I know I may go back there and may get the Sheriff Department grandson of the client to just stay over with me a few hours and see if he sees anything. What can you do about these creatures following me? I have to work for a living. Amy in NC

Science attempts to explain a natural occurring phenomenon. It does not attempt to devise tests on things some would say do not exist at all.

I wouldn't entirely agree, science is not something finished in fact there are many scientists out there trying to invent devices which will do something no one ever thought of before, that is how science has evolved the past few centuries. Some scientist deducts different kinds of phenomenon and years later some device is invented to test those theories, it happens all the time. I believe one day a lot will be explained by having devices able to read out memories and present them in high quality movie format easy to see and compare and it would be a true leap in development but whether you and I are there to witness it I'm not sure.

Scientists might not be after finding proof of spirits but there are scientists and investors who don't mind spending trillions on CERN to find a God particle only theorized. Of which they said they almost found it several times but are not quite sure yet, just a few weeks ago they said again evidence was mounting. But then the chance of finding the Higgs Boson is 1 in a trillion so it's understandable they need more time to be sure. Point being science makes up stuff all the time then invents machines to detect said stuff and prove their point. Sure enough you almost don't hear about those who didn't make it with their inventions or were just not convincing enough.

So, scientifically, how would one legitimately prove such a case?

An R&D facility with almost unlimited resources where you can invent nano probes or maybe scanning devices to read out detailed memories in the brain and have some psychics until they have all contacted and seen the same spirit or event or whatever supernaturally perceived/experienced. It might take some decades but that is what it takes, humanity is stubborn about it's religions and beliefs and technology just isn't that developed yet or at least known technology as I wouldn't be surprised such projects already exist but haven't been made public yet because of the sensitive subject.

Stakes are going to be high on that invention so if you commit yourself to this you might have to sacrifice yourself in a way you would have bodyguards 24/7 and have to live in an isolated lab for the remainder of your life because of all the consequences of such discoveries. Otherwise I would keep to personal experience.

ive found its not paranormal at all.

PSAT.

Darryl Forests

reply to post by Ghost147


I think the easiest way to prove it i by testing a powerfull amulet or weapon. For example testing a special red ruby that known as merah delima in indonesia. Need the first class of it that at least has ability of sharp weapon proof.
How it work is put or wear it into animal or even human and cut them.

Or even find someone who have the same ability, for example a debus player, a traditional attraction using martial art and magic.
The second option might be easier cuz one can pretend want to make a documentary about the art. And then science can explain why some people is sharp weapon proof.
This is merah delima


And for debus

The evidence for the afterlife is overwhelming.

• Evidence for the Afterlife
  
• Peer Reviewed Journal Articls on Psi (see the section on: Mediumship & Survival of Consciousness)
  
• Mrs. Piper Evidence for Survival After Death
  
• Super-psi does not Explain the Evidence for the Afterlife
  

The way to prove any particular personal experience is due to the spirit of a once living person depends on the details of that experience.

Originally posted by ShadellacZumbrum
reply to post by Ghost147

 

Die

That will be the ONLY REAL Test.

I don't agree, firstly you are assuming that every person that dies will become a ghost (or doesn't become a ghost).
I generally don't believe this to be the case, I am of the view that most people do not become ghosts once they die.........but instead just die, however there may be a small minority of individuals who do become ghosts,perhaps due to environmental conditions upon death.......or even perhaps due to some rare "ghost" gene that allows a small number of individuals to become ghosts.

I also feel that the OP wanted some type of test to prove "ghosts" to the living........not to those that have died.

Scientifically proving ghosts would be a difficult task as it would require repeatable phenomena under lab conditions.
Having had a couple of "strange" experiences myself that I cannot myself rationally explain, I do believe that ghosts do exist, but these experiences come out of the blue and don't generally manifest themselves on cue and on camera.
I am personally of the view that quantum physics may play a role in ghost phenomena.
Perhaps one day in the distant future "ghosts" will be understood as a phenomena, just as lightning has been.
and people won't be quite as scared or perplexed by an apparition, but view it as a rare but perfectly natural phenomenon, and the term "Supernatural" would no longer apply.

reply to post by Ghost147


There doesn't exist any way to prove to others that any of this exists. Even if "god" came down from "heaven" people would still be doubting. This is even said in the bible. What you can do is develop your intuition and use yourself as a remarkable tool for validation. True intuition is incapable of being wrong.