When You Think About It In Layman's Terms

reply to post by RomeByFire


I hate to say it, because I really do hate to "hate" on people for their beliefs, but you are completely right. Anything that discounts or contradicts their beliefs, they throw away and get so utterly defensive. I don't understand it. I am simply curious. It is truly not my intention to offend, I just want to know why and how people can believe in this type of thing.

reply to post by Nevertheless


My only problem is, it says that God's word is eternal. His laws are his laws, no matter what. They don't get "outdated" they stand no matter what.

Hi !

Asking questions will never ever be a mistake. There are only those that don't want to answer and those that do.

Hagar got send back, because she had to fulfill her own destiny. She will give birth to Abraham's son, after he and his wife didn't seem to be able to have kids.
A little pain doesn't mean much. It's a human thing.

If someone will give people a choice to take young virgins, instead of those he promised a save place.
Messengers from God even, what would make them holy in his eyes. His daughters are not. He chose to honor God, because he probably meant more to him. If that was from fear of God wrath... I dunno.

I'm just giving my thoughts.

I really think you should never translate a text or sentence, and change it to what you read in the original text.
People could read it with no clue about raping anyone and then you kinda post it in their heads too.

You can't know what others think, and filling thoughts in can get messy.

If you want to getter better understanding of Christianity, learn about Judaism too, as it came from.
The Old testament we know from the bible is the same book as the book the Jews also use. Only they call it different.


PS

Our idea of hell, will if you look a bit further then what you are used to looking for answers.
In Judaism where Jesus was part of, there is no hell. So hell has been a tool, to scare people into following whatever you want them to follow.

When fear is a motivation for anything ever that you planned to do. Step back and think it over.
If fear is what keeps you in churge afraid to end up in hell... It isn't much of a choice, when you are faced with the consequence of making the wrong one.

reply to post by qualm91


I realize you are asking Christians about this, but I think I can give a good answer since I was taught in a Roman Catholic school, were religion class is mandatory (you are not forced to take sacraments however). Family did not seem religious (never mentioned it), however they are good people who you could say follow Christian principals. Step-dad was highly anti religious and many colourful words were spoken about religion and how it was all bull**** and responsible for all the wars in history.

First, I'm going to divide all religious people into two groups:

1. The people who adhere strictly to a set doctrine. (ex. born again Christians, Muslims, and many more)

2. The people who pick and choose what feels right to them from their respective religion. (ex. someone who strives to treat others as they would like to be treated, but would not beat a slave because the bible said it was ok, because that goes against there morals. The bible obviously contradicts itself many times, I'm sure the Quran does too)

Your question is most likely directed at group #1, because group #2 would simply disregard the quotes you have pulled from the bible, because unless they were cruel or savages there morals would prevent them from doing such a thing.

Also many in group #1 probably couldn't bring themselves to stone a gay if that's what there doctrine called for, because it would be against there conscience. (ex. many born again Christians I have met, although following an irrational illogical doctrine, were still good people and had excellent morals)


There are several reasons I think they follow their doctrine even if it contradicts itself or is illogical.

1. They are indoctrinated from youth. Most children's minds are very easy to manipulate and mold.

2. Their minds seem to immediately shut out, ignore, or deny anything which opposes their pet doctrine. They also will twist arguments around to suit them and bend facts.

You will understand this better, if A) You have ever been on the losing side of an argument and knew you were wrong but continued to defend your position.

Or B) Had a very strong preconceived notion challenged, and kind of subconsciously knew you were wrong but refused to change your notion.

Religion is far from the only field this type of irrationality exists (for example many scientific discoveries at first ridiculed are later accepted as fact). Religion does stand out though due to the absurdness of some doctrines.



Lastly most humans have not evolved to the point were they are proficient in logic. I know this because people will be presented with an axiom like 1+1=2 (An Axiom is a premise so evident as to be accepted as true without controversy.) and say it is false.

reply to post by qualm91


So you say you are looking for God? The saying/quote whatever it is "Look under that stone, there I am, look at that bug, there I am" I hope you recognize.

This is based on the idea that God is the causeless cause of all that is, and therefore is omnipresent, since there is nothing outside of "it", Omnipotent since all power proceeds from "it", and Omniscient since all knowledge would proceed from it. God also eternal, since nothing can have caused it to be. Reality. Real. If you believe in one God then this is were you will end up. The chain of cause and effect must end some were, with a causeless cause which always was and always will be.

How can you rebel against God, when anything you think and do was created by "God".


You will notice with religion that the God basically embodies the highest conception of the peoples who created it.

Think that threw and apply it to different religions and Gods, like Jehovah and Allah. Then you will understand why there God enslaves people, and shares human traits like jealousy and wanting to be worshipped etc.

Originally posted by Sinter Klaas

Our idea of hell, will if you look a bit further then what you are used to looking for answers.
In Judaism where Jesus was part of, there is no hell. So hell has been a tool, to scare people into following whatever you want them to follow.

When fear is a motivation for anything ever that you planned to do. Step back and think it over.
If fear is what keeps you in churge afraid to end up in hell... It isn't much of a choice, when you are faced with the consequence of making the wrong one.

edit on 5/21/2013 by Sinter Klaas because: (no reason given)

Religion is a necessary part of human evolution, the fear of hell and bribe of heaven is responsible for a much more moral civilization than there otherwise may have been.


All religions have their esoteric side, but this usually is diluted as time passes.

Islam was probably totally different during the Islamic golden age, than the Sunni and Shiite sects.

Just like Christians beliefs were much different during the middle ages than they are know.

This change also reflects the change in the people following the religion.

Why do you think that parables are only limited to the NT?

reply to post by qualm91

I realize that he did say this, yes. And I do believe that Jesus was a real man that really existed. A man who brought wonderful morals and teachings. But why disregard everything that God has done in the Old Testament? I mean, maybe that is "old" and we should move on from it. But that doesn't mean that we should disregard it. God did what God did because he wanted to. And does what he did not seem sadistic to you?

He ushered in the new creation. If you could even start to fathom this reality....the redemption from Adamkind in to the new creation, IN Christ. For 2,000 years your Creator has been raising sons and daughters in His new human creation, a new creature through the faith of His Son Jesus Christ and through the power of God to lift themselves out of the darkness. And as that faith is rejected, what we see rising is man in all his iniquity - void of any restraint from above. The restraint came through His saints in shich He dwelled. Those pyramids and snakes are coming right back as the descendants of Christian forefathers reject that saving faith. This goes WAY beyond Jesus giving "wonderfuls morals and teachings".... He is THE LIFE. Our Lord and Saviour. Through Him, God has been reconciling man to Himself. This is the gospel, this is His promise throughout the entire Old testament. The redemption of adamkind. The redemption of a fallen humanity. Do you know what I do when I have not received understanding of a passage? I pray. Parables require revelation and study.

Originally posted by qualm91
Thanks for asking these questions, it will help us both learn more about eachother. I am a Christian and these sort of questions are good for eachother. I hope if you dont mind I wont be posting any scripture for replying to these, just expressing my opinion and understanding of it. : )

"And he said 'Hagar, Sarai’s slave girl, where have you come from and where are you going?' She answered, 'I’m running away from Sarai, my mistress.' The angel of the Lord said to her, 'Go back to your mistress and submit to ill treatment at her hands.' " -Genesis 16:8 So, not only is God condoning slavery, but he is saying that it is perfectly fine to beat your slaves. But we're all equal in his eyes? I think not.

God, though harsh sounding in this verse, actually did fulfill His promise to Abraham about multiplying his offspring, even if it was not God's intention for the offpsring to be through Hagar [which is why today there is great strife between arabs and jews.] I wouldnt say this shows God as approving of harsh slavery, but moreso approving of Sarais treatment over what the other option would have been; "sleep with the queens man, you get beheaded" no Abraham wasnt a king or any of that, but I would assume in those days especially that if you couldnt conceive and were promised offspring by God, that your man impregnated your servant, youd probably want to kill her. So maybe a little bit of harshness and abusing is bad yes, but not as bad as murdering. It is to say God doesnt approve of this, but its just a temporary thing, and Gods way of encouraging her as though saying "yes it will be tough, but I will take care of you" which God did.

“ 'Look, I have two daughters, virgins both of them. Let me bring them out to you and you could do what you like with them. But do nothing to these men because they have come under the shelter of my roof.' ” -Genesis 19:8 Go ahead and rape my daughters, Lot says, but please don't hurt these men. And God condones this? Is this the loving God that you all worship?

God did not say "offer up your daughters" Lot did this, just as there was some verse in the OT about a man who promised to God when he returned he would sacrifice so and so to God, and ended up being his daughter. I am sure you know this as you read the Bible before, but one could say "why would God condone this?" but it wasn't God, it was the man who said this. The same is for this passage. Truth is, it also shows the seriousness Lot had towards God, giving up even his family for God, again God did not tell Lot to do this.. At least not that I remember : s

"Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, 'Go up, you bald head! Go up, you bald head!' So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the Lord. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths." -Kings 2:23 The Lord has no problem killing children for calling someone bald, obviously. Doesn't that seem a bit harsh? Would YOU be okay with your children being murdered for calling someone bald?

Its hard to not picture these 'children' as just being playful innocent children, surely they are much more than that, but even if they are horrible as can be, does it justify death? I would say not, but again we dont know the circumstances. What if these kids had been following him from the city [as it says] but for miles and miles, and would have caused him to never fulfill his mission? it doesnt mean that God is all about killing everybody till He gets His way, and also it was not God who pronounced the curse, it was the guy [I forget who it was lol] But your right, it does seem a bit harsh, but for all we know that could have been a focal point where God ultimately had to decide. Another thing one could look at is that God had given this character His power to curse like that, and though God would not have chosed to do this, the guy did choose it, one could correlate this to church leaders having power in their words for good and bad?

Good set of passages you brought up, it definitely is a challenge and helps me see it from the other perspective looking in. I hope to answer further questions for you. And also I do agree that there are things that cannot be answered that do seem to make God out to be 'evil' but I believe with meditation and study, they will prove that God really is not evil. : )

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by intrptr

 

Interesting theory. I think that whole lake of fire imagery comes from a literal lake of fire.

If I didn't know that was a lava lake I might think it was a picture of a sun. Anymore than people who wrote the bible thousands of years ago would be able to tell this was not a lava lake...



Looks like a lake of fire now? Before space telescopes man had no idea what the sun looked like up close. Of course now its common knowledge... now.

Personally, I would LOVE to walk on the sun in my spiritual body. Talk about purification!

In many cultures, GOD is the SUN.

You would not survive. Even your atoms would break up. Today, thinking God is the Sun is ignorant.

Rename this one "The unquenchable lake of fire":


A lava lake is not "forever". The sun well, more nearly...