Is There a Fail-safe? A Way to Know If You're Wrong?

You only need an afternoon of playing on this board to come to the realization that there are many that come here as a result of their firm conviction that they're cracked one code or another, and are in possession of unique and previously unknown information or insight. It's also quickly apparent that most of them are incorrect in their convictions, and that what they possess as insight or information is neither unique nor accurate. In some cases, it's stunning just how inaccurate a person's honestly embraced conviction can be, and it makes you uneasy to realize just how common it is for a person to be so completely taken in by a notion that means so much to them. Especially if you are also one of those folks who's come to this board as a result of your own firm conviction that you've cracked one code or another, and are in possession of unique and previously unknown information or insight.

Presenting the question is easy. The hard part is establishing the foundation for the question. Maybe this will serve for the time being.

• There is a foundational real that does exist
  
• Within that foundational real exists the relative nature that bases our own existential structure
  
• Whatever is assumed and asserted by the human mind, pertaining to that relative nature, is either accurate or inaccurate, since that relative nature does exist as precise and finite - even if it is relative and inherently fluid to one extent or another
  
• When directly conflicting assertions exist, at least one assertion must be incorrect
  
• All aspects, whether known or unknown, concerning the foundational real and the relative nature that bases our own existential structure within that foundatonal real, do exist, and as a result, can be quantified and qualified, even if no one's accomplished it yet

So, here's the question.

How can you accurately determine whether you're wrong (or right) if no definite or authoritative basis has ever been established concerning the information or insight that you feel you've broken new ground on? In particular, what do you reach for when what you've got presents a complete paradigm shift, and you've finally run out of available dots that can possibly connect to what's been reliably established as definable fact? How do you know when to pull the trigger on it, or is there any way to ever know?

And how do you find out whether you've completely come off the rails or not? Especially in this global environment where every other person seems to have God or Jesus or Vishnu or ultimate enlightenment on speed dial.

I'm hoping that there is a qualified logician or trained theorist with the juice to comprehensively address this question who chances upon it before it slides off the front page.

reply to post by NorEaster


You will know by the fruit.
If life is happy and delightful and feels like heaven and not hell then you will know that it is right. The ultimate code has been cracked. It does not have to be sold to anyone else for it to work.

Every person lives in their own reality. Society's reality is in fact the amalgamation of all of the individual realities.

The problem with an individuals reality is that you can not prove a negative. That is you can never prove that something does not exist. You can state that you can not see / hear / feel / taste or smell it. You can state your belief that it does not exist and you can state your belief that everyone else's beliefs are the same as yours. But you can never prove it.

Since you can never prove the non existence of anything, you are stuffed! This is what makes ATS such an interesting place!

P

Originally posted by pheonix358
Every person lives in their own reality.

P

Insert "perceived" between "own" and "reality", and I'll agree. That said, the fact that both you and I can perceive anything at all insists that a foundational real exists, and that that "real" is objective and shared by both of us. And either this assertion is true or it's not true, whether either of us can prove it to be true one way of the other.

And this is the only thing that can be presented as true.

I've got a writers' retreat to attend this morning and afternoon, so carry on and I'll stop by later.

Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by pheonix358
Every person lives in their own reality.

P

Insert "perceived" between "own" and "reality", and I'll agree. That said, the fact that both you and I can perceive anything at all insists that a foundational real exists, and that that "real" is objective and shared by both of us. And either this assertion is true or it's not true, whether either of us can prove it to be true one way of the other.

What you perceive is thoughts that speak about 'you' (among other 'things') - but what are the thoughts actually speaking about when it refers to 'you'? Your 'individual reality' has a 'you' in it. This is 'reality' and there is the idea of a 'you' that has just appeared 'out' of reality. Is there a 'you' outside of reality? Is there really a separate 'you'?

Is it not just an image projected outside of the original image - this now appearing image? Can the projected image ever be true?

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by NorEaster

 

You will know by the fruit.
If life is happy and delightful and feels like heaven and not hell then you will know that it is right. The ultimate code has been cracked. It does not have to be sold to anyone else for it to work.

edit on 4-5-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

There is a guy that agrees with you completely. Right now he's speeding down the highway at a hundred MPH in a convertible, radio blaring, mirror sun glasses. He had just snorted a line of coke at a friend's house and spent the night making love to three different women. He's happy, delightful, and in sheer heaven. Should anyone tell him about sexually transmitted diseases, drug addiction, and careless driving?

What we perceive as happy and delightful and feels like heaven is based solely on what we DON'T know (or don't want to know). Sooner or later, the truth eventually hits us hard in the face, and then we find a new way to be happy, until that is proven false too.

We humans are too feeble to achieve 100% right.

Instead what we have are shades of differentiation. Degrees or percentages that fluctuate and remain in a state of flux.

You seem to be aware of some alchemy, another way to put this is in terms of "Air" symbolism. It's all up in the "Air" you know? It is a mutable aspect of our existence.

If you learn how to transmute one aspect of an idea into another successfully at will, than you can control any argument even if you are completely ignorant of the facts. This is a inevitable conclusion due to the fallibility and fragility of our "facts", they are typically quite tenuous at best and this leaves the door wide open for almost anything.

Originally posted by pheonix358
Every person lives in their own reality. Society's reality is in fact the amalgamation of all of the individual realities.

The problem with an individuals reality is that you can not prove a negative. That is you can never prove that something does not exist. You can state that you can not see / hear / feel / taste or smell it. You can state your belief that it does not exist and you can state your belief that everyone else's beliefs are the same as yours. But you can never prove it.

Since you can never prove the non existence of anything, you are stuffed! This is what makes ATS such an interesting place!

P

I'm getting all you PhoenixXXX and wolfy avatars mixed up all the time here lol

Good post. That is it in a nut shell. We all see reality as en entire scope within our own reality, but often we don't realise it. Everything is a certain way. Some people push their thinking to break that scope and then they see things in an all encompassing scope which feels to them as if they've realised something astonishing and can't wait to tell others.

But others may have already had that epiphany or maybe they always realised it.. Or maybe the roller-coaster of thought that they were swept up in has taken them beyond their comprehension of understanding the complexity f it all and has broken into fractured yet mutually exclusive segments of reality.. one minute everything makes sense. then they find none of it makes sense. but now this all makes sense.. etc.

Most of us manage to focus on what is in front of us, deal with it, and the rest might or might not exist, but as long as nothing drastic happens to our reality, we don't need to care as much.

Other things require you to step back from thinking and look at the picture objectively. And the things that don't make sense, can safely be ignored. The things that do make sense and that you can have input on or hope to change, are what should matter and these things should be common to most of us.

On here however, I see that's not the case. Or it is a case of that fractured reality some have, that appears to take hold when they enter here. And I know here is different to youtube or facebook or your other forum or whatever it is. It sets a different mood, mindset and attitude.

I think some people are quite well adjusted when they are about their daily meanderings, but as soon as they put themselves in this mood, they are engulfed by it. They have to be, because from how they describe their reality it's something that seems completely irrational, non-functioning world where they should need help to open doors.

Others though you realise are well aware of the world. And you don't feel so unique or complex. Brings you back.

I think we all have potential for a different and unique truth. It's true to us. It's the stuff you have to chip away at, the non-functioning parts, before you can see it or see it spark into life.



Bit like everyone arriving at heaven to see a long line of people waiting at the pearly gates..

Originally posted by NorEaster


How can you accurately determine whether you're wrong (or right) if no definite or authoritative basis has ever been established concerning the information or insight that you feel you've broken new ground on? In particular, what do you reach for when what you've got presents a complete paradigm shift, and you've finally run out of available dots that can possibly connect to what's been reliably established as definable fact? How do you know when to pull the trigger on it, or is there any way to ever know?

These are very interesting questions, and ones with which I have wrestled in the past.

After I had exhausted all the avenues of research and verification of the mystic teachings I embrace, at least to the extent open for me at that point in time, I decided to risk it all and admitted to myself - without reservation - that I could be wrong, mistaken, and self-deluded.

I expected to emerge from such brutal self-admission with my previous strong convictions considerably weakened and to join the ranks of the disillusioned believers. It came as quite a surprise to find that this personal confrontation did not even cause a ripple in my standing with those teachings.

For the first time, I came to realise that it did not matter whether I was right or wrong, but only that I was being true to myself, that I was living a teaching which resonates at a deep level, and which harms neither myself or others.

This is not the logical and comprehensive answer you may be seeking, but I share it nevertheless.

reply to post by NorEaster

Is There a Fail-safe? A Way to Know If You're Wrong?,

Yes..

I would say we can always rely the heart... of course that depends on what is in the heart of said person...

I find when it comes to that issue, Jesus always seems to know best...

Unfortunately I don't have him on speed dial...

So if you happen to have his number... pass it this way

Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by pheonix358
Every person lives in their own reality.

P

Insert "perceived" between "own" and "reality", and I'll agree.

I don't think it needs that qualifier when you're talking about each of us having our own reality. It's not perceived by us, it is experienced by us, it is perceived as a whole by a group think that allows us to describe it to others.

To me I experience a blue sky, You experience a blue sky. Together we perceive that blue sky. But to each of us it might be a different hue or shade. We don't need to differentiate that, as we see the same thing, experience it together. But we have to share the perception to allow others to understand it.

I get what you mean, however, but I think that goes back to the faulty concept that our reality is the only one, and everyone else shares that with us.

Someone sees a brick wall, someone else sees a wall to climb over, and someone else sees bricks for his house.

Truth on the level the OP is asking, I think, cannot be proven. Only experienced.

Sorry mixed thread topics up lol.

reply to post by winofiend

Bit like everyone arriving at heaven to see a long line of people waiting at the pearly gates..

Because of the reality differences all the Catholics get really upset trying to determine why the bloody Protestants are in the line. Then they see the Rabbi and they go into shock.

Meanwhile the Islamics are are having a screaming fit when they discover there are 0 virgins waiting for them.

Just a normal day for St. Peter. Now, what did he do wrong to deserve this eternal fate.

Much of the foundations of our individual realities are taught to us as children. As we grow up, some of us reject these teachings and look to other places to fill the vacuum. Niribu where are you.

P

Look, anyone who claims they know what reality is across the board for sure, is a liar or is insane.

I see that a lot though.
We are all susceptible to it.
We are only humans after all.

The goal here is to remind one's self of one's own limitations and to embrace them rather than ignore them and allow them to fester into larger debilitations.

reply to post by winofiend

To me I experience a blue sky, You experience a blue sky. Together we perceive that blue sky. But to each of us it might be a different hue or shade. We don't need to differentiate that, as we see the same thing, experience it together. But we have to share the perception to allow others to understand it.

Yes ...... But. One person sees the sky and thinks "it is lovely" Another person perceives the same sky and thinks "When is that comet going to wipe out all life on this planet" Whilst the third person is looking for the flying saucers or a planetary body that is out of our phase. Yet another is frightened because they read about Chicken Little. The Pakistani youth is looking for drones and missiles.

Our realities force us to see and experience things in vastly different ways whilst looking at the exact same thing.

P

I do agree there is an actual reality that exists outside of the human mind, but the "reality" perceived in the human mind is entirely misleading and clouded in delusion and crippled by ignorance.

We didn't even know about X-rays until recently, and we still cannot see them without using technology to create a picture for us.

Point is, there is a vast array of facts of reality that exist all around us, and we haven't a clue about barely any of them at all. So who are we to think we actually know much of anything for sure?

Originally posted by NorEaster
So, here's the question.

How can you accurately determine whether you're wrong (or right) if no definite or authoritative basis has ever been established concerning the information or insight that you feel you've broken new ground on? In particular, what do you reach for when what you've got presents a complete paradigm shift, and you've finally run out of available dots that can possibly connect to what's been reliably established as definable fact? How do you know when to pull the trigger on it, or is there any way to ever know?

And how do you find out whether you've completely come off the rails or not? Especially in this global environment where every other person seems to have God or Jesus or Vishnu or ultimate enlightenment on speed dial.

i) It is my belief that one cannot establish with absolute certainty any form of knowledge. Even knowledge derived from a (seemingly) definite or authoritative basis is prone to being falsifiable.

ii) There is no way to definitively know whether the path you are on is a reasonable one. The best you can do is come up with a theory that has a beginning, a middle and an end. If it has those three parts and seems logical, then stick with it.

iii) The line separating what is normal, rational thinking and what is abnormal irrational thinking becomes more blurred as we encounter more information. As long as the information you have discovered does not negatively impact others or yourself, you should feel free to pursue any type of information that rings true from within.

I'd say one just knows Noreaster.

How? because we are born with this antenna for truth.

Truth was our creator, truth is our nature, howcome we should not know him? You 'sense', or you know, aha, one perceives!

Truth is perceived. Not perceived = not the truth.

Do you like my response?

reply to post by NorEaster


I am going to argue for a subjective reality just for fun:


* There is no "objective" reality.

There is no such thing as "remembering" the past. Memory is just imagination. We make up the past and the future from now and only now exists and it contains all potential (imagination - what we would call "past", "future" or alternative "nows").

"Past" and "Future" is imagined and happening from now.

Truth is not objective.

So, one can question, if truth is not objective is this in of itself an objective truth?

The answer is No and Yes.

No, because it is false and there is an objective truth my selective definition of "real/knowledge"
Yes, because it is truth through my selective definitions.

So even the answer to that question in and of itself is subjective.

I know I am absolutely wrong when the wife says so...

I do not argue or over analyze after that declaration - it simply doesn't pay off. If I ever want to know if I am wrong I just talk to my wife about whatever it is.

I know if I am wrong she will not hesitate to tell me; however, if I am right she will simply point out the numerous ways I could possibly be wrong on other non related issues.

So - get married, you'll never be unsure again.