USA is Guilty of Committing Useless War Crimes! According to 30 year intel vet

THE SPECIFIC INDICTMENT of Bush Jr/Obama/CIA/US Military “Torture of 9/11 Prisoners” at GITMO—FINALLY CONFIRMED as a “WAR CRIME”-- Equivalent to Prosecuted Nazi War Crimes and the Torture/ Internship Of Japanese Americans During WWII.
Nothing beats a sensational front page news story like a Boston Marathon Massacre! Most readers would miss the incidental but far more serious implication for the moral compass of America than the NY Times story by Scott Shane, entitled, “U.S. Practiced Torture After 9/11, Non Partisan Review Concludes”. (posted earlier)
In this article, both Asa Hutchinson [Republican/Bush Jr Administration] and James R. Jones [Democrat, Congress] indict the interrogation and tortures committed by Presidents Clinton [Rendition], Bush Jr [full menu of tortures], Obama [Bush Jr in Black face.

pieczenik.blogspot.ca...

if this is true
then according to Dr Pieczenic, 30 year intel expert and co author of many Jack Ryan novels, all these presidents should be executed or given life imprisonment the same as the germans and japanese who commited the same types of crimes in WWII

well ats what do you think?

reply to post by Danbones


Hmmmmm, I think someone already posted this! Yes, as a matter of fact they did and you even replied in the thread!

I think you have a double thread at the moment my friend.

Above Top Secret

here is the link to the NY times article:
www.nytimes.com...

Originally posted by seeker1963
reply to post by Danbones

 

Hmmmmm, I think someone already posted this! Yes, as a matter of fact they did and you even replied in the thread!

that was in relation to covering up the "Boston Bombing"
it does not appear to be discussing the actual findings nor is anuone discussing the original NY times article
or the actual ramifications of the findings
to wit:

U.S. Engaged in Torture After 9/11, Review Concludes
WASHINGTON — A nonpartisan, independent review of interrogation and detention programs in the years after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks concludes that “it is indisputable that the United States engaged in the practice of torture” and that the nation’s highest officials bore ultimate responsibility for it.

from the NY times link above

please pardon the worst wifi connection Ive ever had
and if the Mods don't see the Merit in this specific discussion
shut this down then please

The use of torture, the report concludes, has “no justification” and “damaged the standing of our nation, reduced our capacity to convey moral censure when necessary and potentially increased the danger to U.S. military personnel taken captive.” The task force found “no firm or persuasive evidence” that these interrogation methods produced valuable information that could not have been obtained by other means. While “a person subjected to torture might well divulge useful information,” much of the information obtained by force was not reliable, the report says.

what they are saying is the US has totally lost the moral high ground in effect thee presidents have made the US into the great Satan

It offers dozens of legal cases in which similar treatment was prosecuted in the United States or denounced as torture by American officials when used by other countries.

The report compares the torture of detainees to the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II. “What was once generally taken to be understandable and justifiable behavior,” the report says, “can later become a case of historical regret

from the ny times link above

well, I can hear the crickets chirping

seems to me this is big news, especially considering all the Amerika uberall types on this forum who morally denigrate some of these other countries
i can see how it might be a difficult thing to face

especially after that CIA rendition plane went down in Mexico with all those tons of coke on board

there was duplicate thread this isthe one left open
so i hope anyone contributing will land on here

I would U2U but my intrnet connection is so bad that they keep timeing out before I can send them

well I hope this thread recovers
Dan

Thanks Kosmic and DTOM
this really has me confused LOL

reply to post by Danbones


Dear Danbones, thanks for providing the link (in the other thread) to the New York Times report on the Constitution Project study. I really appreciate your work here. It makes me wonder if I should go back to Canada, my parents' country, seeing what great thoughts are stimulated by the frosty weather.

For a moment, I was torn between a political answer and an honest answer, but only for a moment. I want a reputation for only two things here on ATS; kindness and honesty. So, I have to go with the honest.

Honestly? I don't know. Let me babble for a minute.

I've heard that waterboarding was used on three people. That feels different to me than if it was routinely used.

Was it torture? I don't even think the lawyers know. In 2008, the Congressional Research Service was saying that it wasn't so much torture as it was cruel and degrading treatment. What's the difference? They were claiming it was the amount of damage caused. My understanding is that waterboarding is as scary as anything, but it's not fatal, nor does it leave marks or cause damage to the body. What am I supposed to think? Where is the line drawn between right and wrong? Between torture and rough questioning?

I don't want our country to use torture, but is it possible to imagine a hypothetical where it makes sense? Maybe. I never tortured anyone, but I was never in a situation where it made any sense.

Danbones, I'm really sorry to be ducking the question. I've tried not to, but I just don't know. Republican or Democrat, the people we've entrusted our country to, have been doing it forever it seems. Were they always wrong?

The threat of death was seen as torture. Are we doing that with our drone strikes? I just can't get a handle on this. Should the UN be the judging body? I don't think so, partially because of the other members' records and partially because I just don't trust them. Well, if not them, who? Ourselves? A group of half a dozen countries we can trust?

And once more, I just don't know.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952

Was it torture?

it's essentially no different than shoving someone's head under water so that they can't breath.

there is a reason gitmo isn't part of the U.S., it is leased land from cuba through a treaty to be used only as a naval refueling station.

waterboarding is torture under both u.s. legal definitions AND the u.n. convention against torture.

The term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession

or the purposes of this Convention, torture shall be understood to be any act intentionally performed whereby physical or mental pain or suffering is inflicted on a person for purposes of criminal investigation, as a means of intimidation, as personal punishment, as a preventive measure, as a penalty, or for any other purpose.

waterboarding.org...

even using psychoactive substances as a means to coerce, alter (their personality or mental functions), punish, or obtain information from a person is defined as torture. playing loud music constantly is torture. almost everything that happens at gitmo is a form of torture.

reply to post by Bob Sholtz

Dear Bob Sholtz,

Thanks. I hope you can see where my confusion comes from when trying to see all the various aspects. The link you provided was useful. I noticed that almost all of the definitions involved the word "severe." I don't know what that's interpreted to mean.

As I said, I agree it's really nasty, but I have unanswered questions and confusions as I indicated in my post. Thanks again for stating the position so clearly.

With respect,
Charles1952

Of course this is only more confirmation of what others have said for years.

The facts are our USA Government has committed many war crimes over the years and is on par, with Hitler, Stalin, Genghis Khan, Hussein, Nero. Qaddafi, etc.

Our government was designed to be fluid, ever changing the people in power, compartmentalized to the point where actions get hidden and obscured, blame gets tossed around with no one being accountable.. These other men, Hitler, Stalin Genghis Khan, Hussein, Nero. Qaddafi, et at least were not cowards and committed their acts openly. Our government hides behind statues it created for it's own purposes to hide their evil deeds from it's sheeple. You thought the Muslims used deception, the USA Government is masters at it.

Because of this, The current form of the US Government is the most evil and dangerous form of government on the planet.

I grew up in the 70's. We were supposed to be the good guys. Democracy was supposed to work, For the People By the People and Government was supposed to have checks and balances on them only able to do what the people gave them power to do. This is the Big Lie. This is all an illusion. They allow us to have a certain amount of "freedom" so we will believe the lie.. and how can we not.. after all we are one of the most "free" countries on the planet. Yet we are still slaves but on very long chains that do have ends. They are taking out chain links all the time.

History is the Great Teacher. It's too sad most people don't like history. They will be ignorant when they are led away to the slaughter.

reply to post by Danbones

well, I can hear the crickets chirping

I'll give you a hint..."avatar"

reply to post by JohnPhoenix

Of course it's up to you to write however you want, but I'd like to make an observation on your post.

I thought we were talking about the issue of waterboarding and mistreatment during interrogation. I'm unsure of my position and was learning from others who seemed reasonable and understandingly impassioned.

Your post opens with the claim that, not only is the United States as equally evil as any government the world has ever known, but it adds the equal failing of being cowardly.

So, to claim that the US is the worst country and government that has ever existed seems extreme and makes me wonder about the value of your opinion on the subject.

Would you care to express a little more narrowly focused opinion on the subject at hand? Perhaps discuss the Presidential memos, or the UN Conventions, or other types of interrogation techniiques used through history?

Originally posted by Gazrok
reply to post by Danbones

 

well, I can hear the crickets chirping

I'll give you a hint..."avatar"

i have an 80+ flag thread next door Gaz

my great great great uncles flag?
i think my AV would be more honest about me then yours is about you

also this was a duplicate thread because of the current posting issue
many replies there were lost when the eduplicate was closed
THATS WHAT I WAS ASKING ABOUT
...
guess maybe your somewhat off topic dig is really due to your lack of being upto date on the fackts

reply to post by charles1952


hi Charles
Thanx for the reply
there was a whole thing from Bushes AG regarding torturing children
he claimed it was entirley OK to torture children to coerce statements from thier parents

President Carter: Many Children Were Tortured Under Bush

www.globalresearch.ca...
that i hope isn't a routine thing

what about how the legalities affect the validity of the orofice of the prezident?

and things like the amnesties declared against prosecution for the government and certain corporations
the various admins have passed

I think he just dipped his finger into a cesspool that is much deeper. Secrecy has hidden a great deal from us.

reply to post by cavtrooper7


I wonder how this will effect the presidents office's ability to command the military?

Let me be more precise and list some of the issues that are relevant to the ‘torture’, ‘interrogation’ and ‘the legal consequences’ of those actions over a thirty year period since the Clinton Administration.
But first let’s go back, a bit further to WWII.
--A Japanese General was summarily executed by the US allies for waterboarding pilots who had been caught in the Jimmy DoLittle Raid on Tokyo.
-- US Army soldiers during the Vietnam War summarily placed in prison for waterboarding Viet Cong prisoners of war.
--In 1948, Norwegians executed German SS officers practicing ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’ called ‘Versharfte Vernehmung’ developed by Gestapo Chief Heinrich Muller, using ‘sleep deprivation’, ‘extreme cold’, ‘suspension in stress positions’ and ‘deliberate exhaustion’.
--Navy Captain Albert Shimkus Jr, who ran a hospital for the prisoners at Gitmo protested the unethical behavior.
-- Bill Clinton, Sandy Berger approved rendition.
--Bush jr, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Condi, Steve Hadley, Elliot Abrams, Gen. David Petraeus, Jose Rodriguez [head of CIA Covert operations], John Brennan, David Addington [WH staff], all approved the use of severe interrogation methods including hypothermia, waterboarding, stress positions, abdominal beatings, genital torture, and other bodily and psychological harm according to Department of Justice Concurrence of Attorney General John Ashcroft as written in the paper by John Yoo. Also concurring to these aforementioned methods were NSA Director General Michael Hayden, SecState Collin Powell, and DCI George Tenet .
--The only official to dissent officially and was subsequently reprimanded was Philip Zelikow, PhD who wrote a memo contesting the DOJ’s Torture Memo written by John Yoo and others in “Justice”.
-- Karl Rove told BBC in 2010: ”I’m proud that we kept the world safer than it was, by the use of these techniques. They’re appropriate, they’re in conformity with our international requirements and with US law”.
--Cheney: ” I was and remain a strong proponent of our enhanced interogatopn program

pieczenik.blogspot.ca...

from the link in OP

is not what is good for the goose good for the gander ?