Freemasonry Victoria: The inside story.

reply to post by thelonious2


Cult huh ? I now have reservations that you were even a Mason . Or maybe you do not know the definition of "cult" .

The other poster was not taking a back handed swipe at you . You made the statement that you asked Masons what they learned in the Fraternity that changed them and none could answer to your satisfaction . It was a valid remark , how many have you asked ? 1 , 2 , 5 , 10 Masons ? You made a very broad statement and it was called into question , period . And you do not like it that it was called into question .

Originally posted by InhaleExhale
...unfortunately no guides on sacrificing newborns to Moloch or Baphomet.

You learn that much later.

reply to post by thelonious2

Like I said to you before on DI, you're experience is not indicative of all Masonry in the US.

Originally posted by InhaleExhale


Sorry if I gave the impression I am a member of masonry, I am not, just find masonry and the wild speculation surrounding it interesting.

Same here....from your posts, I had just assumed you were a Mason.

Masons tend to take all criticisms of Masonry as an attack on them personally...and usually attack the critic in return.

I don't have anything personal against anyone just because he is a Mason. I still have close friends in Masonry. Some have distanced themselves from me when I left the fraternity. Others have privately confided to me that they agree with me, but stay in it in the hope that it will somehow change. That was my hope for a long time too, but my conscience got the better of me and I left it.

NOTE TO KSIG: I received your email, but cannot yet respond to it because I haven't been a member here long enough. As soon as I can, I'll answer.

Originally posted by thelonious2
My question was, what light did you receive in Masonry that you lacked before your initiation?

Do you remember what was whispered in your ear as you knelt at the altar after taking the obligation of the entered apprentice?

You were asked what you most desired.

I like to say a cold beer in practice, but a mason knows the answer.

____ in masonry.

I am reminded of my lessons every day in all the things I do. Am I treating this person as I promised I would as a mason? Am I acting in a way the the brethren in my lodge would say is an example of how to be a good mason?

Sure you can do all that without masonry. But, you can do it with masonry too. I am sorry you didn't enjoy it as much as we do. It does seem funny that you would invest so much in masonry only to come to the conclusion you have 20 years later.

I guess I like the character aspect of it best. You promise to do all the things you did in your obligations for the rest of your life to prove you are of good character. Even if you stop being a mason. Without character a man's value to society dwindles. Yes, the lessons are all there for good reason.

reply to post by network dude


Network, thanks for an interesting reply....I'd like to address it, but in a hurry now. Will get back to you soon, again, thanks.

Originally posted by thelonious2
reply to post by network dude

 

Network, thanks for an interesting reply....I'd like to address it, but in a hurry now. Will get back to you soon, again, thanks.

No worries. be safe.

Originally posted by network dude

Do you remember what was whispered in your ear as you knelt at the altar after taking the obligation of the entered apprentice?

You were asked what you most desired.

I like to say a cold beer in practice, but a mason knows the answer.

____ in masonry.

I came into Masonry before the advent of the Internet. These days, practically all Masonic rituals are available to anyone who wants to Google them. When I was initiated, the facade of secrecy still surrounded it, and I was not familair with the actual ritual beforehand. Indeed, since I've left Masonry, I've spoken in depth with many Masons about the issue, including former ones.

As you know, most Masons drop out soon after they receive the degrees, usually through NPD. I spoke to some of these men, and most of them told me that they were extremely disappointed in what goes on in the lodge. They had not bothered to research the ritual beforehand, or thought it was secret....and their story here is similar to mine: had they known the ritual beforehand, they would not have partaken in it.

This is why all attempts made by the lodges for membership retention will fail. When I was active, I once served on a committee to call NPD brothers and those who began the degree work but never completed. Our purpose was to try to generate interest among these who had fallen by the side.

For the most part, I was only hung up on. Got cursed out a few times. Same thing happened to the other committee members. I spoke with guys from other lodges who had tried a retention programs, and their results were the same.

When I took the first degree, at the proper time I, like all the candidates, was prompted to say "light". I was then promised that if I lived in accordance with freemasonry, I would attain light. This was only the first of many promises that the organization makes to its new recruits that are dishonest.

I am reminded of my lessons every day in all the things I do. Am I treating this person as I promised I would as a mason? Am I acting in a way the the brethren in my lodge would say is an example of how to be a good mason?

Sure you can do all that without masonry. But, you can do it with masonry too. I am sorry you didn't enjoy it as much as we do. It does seem funny that you would invest so much in masonry only to come to the conclusion you have 20 years later.

My friend, I assure that my decision to leave Masonry was not an easy one. In fact, it was very painful. There were always things I found questionable, as you probably have as well. But I became so thoroughly indoctrinated in it, that I chose to ignore it. I've traveled all over the nation to Masonic funtions. I kept hearing lodge chaplains giving pious prayers in the lodge room, while telling dirty jokes in the kitchen 15 minutes later. I kept hearing past masters tell newly initiated apprentices during the ritual that freemasonry is a universal brotherhood, and after the ritual is over, tell them that the lodge conducts an investigation of all petitioners to make sure they are white. Masons take obligations to regard each other as brothers, and yet stab each other in the back the first chance they get.

I guess I like the character aspect of it best.

The character aspect of it is why I left, and why thousands more are leaving. It's why freemasonry is dwindling in membership, and why petitioners are becoming fewer. It's why the turnover rate in the fraternity is so high.

Originally posted by thelonious2
I came into Masonry before the advent of the Internet. These days, practically all Masonic rituals are available to anyone who wants to Google them. When I was initiated, the facade of secrecy still surrounded it, and I was not familair with the actual ritual beforehand. Indeed, since I've left Masonry, I've spoken in depth with many Masons about the issue, including former ones.

What I have noticed is that it's only the anti masons, or just non masons who talk of the secrets. Most masons I know will tell you flat out, there are not secrets. And with the Google, I fully agree.

As you know, most Masons drop out soon after they receive the degrees, usually through NPD. I spoke to some of these men, and most of them told me that they were extremely disappointed in what goes on in the lodge. They had not bothered to research the ritual beforehand, or thought it was secret....and their story here is similar to mine: had they known the ritual beforehand, they would not have partaken in it.

This baffles me. The ritual is what makes it interesting. I find that teaching a very basic lesson in such a way that it impacts a lifetime of thought, is extremely powerful. Think of the apron lecture. It's the first thing given to a mason that he can hold and it's explanation can bring a tear to your eye when done right. Teaching you to try to live your life well and not tarnish that perfect white emblem. Sure it's just an apron, to when it's meaning is applied, it becomes so much more. As do the other symbols.

This is why all attempts made by the lodges for membership retention will fail. When I was active, I once served on a committee to call NPD brothers and those who began the degree work but never completed. Our purpose was to try to generate interest among these who had fallen by the side.

For the most part, I was only hung up on. Got cursed out a few times. Same thing happened to the other committee members. I spoke with guys from other lodges who had tried a retention programs, and their results were the same.

It sounds like the ones you were trying to call were best left in their present condition. Quality not quantity. (IMHO)

When I took the first degree, at the proper time I, like all the candidates, was prompted to say "light". I was then promised that if I lived in accordance with freemasonry, I would attain light. This was only the first of many promises that the organization makes to its new recruits that are dishonest.

I guess if someone promised you something, then you were misled. I was only offered a chance to better myself. An opportunity to take the instruction given and apply it. You should know as well as any mason that unless you practice what you claim you learned, the lessons are useless.

My friend, I assure that my decision to leave Masonry was not an easy one. In fact, it was very painful. There were always things I found questionable, as you probably have as well. But I became so thoroughly indoctrinated in it, that I chose to ignore it. I've traveled all over the nation to Masonic funtions. I kept hearing lodge chaplains giving pious prayers in the lodge room, while telling dirty jokes in the kitchen 15 minutes later. I kept hearing past masters tell newly initiated apprentices during the ritual that freemasonry is a universal brotherhood, and after the ritual is over, tell them that the lodge conducts an investigation of all petitioners to make sure they are white. Masons take obligations to regard each other as brothers, and yet stab each other in the back the first chance they get.

I cannot help but think you had some brothers who didn't belong in masonry. They exist, and some of them are active, but not many, and they stick out quickly. As a mason, if we follow what we obligated ourselves to do, there should never be the contention you describe. If it exists, then it should have been dealt with by masonic jurisprudence. Ignoring the problems will only leave them for someone else to clean up.

I guess I like the character aspect of it best.

The character aspect of it is why I left, and why thousands more are leaving. It's why freemasonry is dwindling in membership, and why petitioners are becoming fewer. It's why the turnover rate in the fraternity is so high.

edit on 12-4-2013 by thelonious2 because: (no reason given)

Again brother, I am sorry you feel the way you do. I don't feel like I am lied to, manipulated, or forced into thinking like I do, I am humbled by the character of the men I met in masonry and I have some life long friends who I would not have known if not for masonry. The brethren on this very site are some of the most knowledgeable masons I have met. And like in real life, not all of them are perfect, but then who is?
Good luck in your travels.

As a mason, if we follow what we obligated ourselves to do, there should never be the contention you describe. If it exists, then it should have been dealt with by masonic jurisprudence. Ignoring the problems will only leave them for someone else to clean up.

Network dude, I'm not sure how long you've been a Mason, or what experience you have at the Grand Lodge level, if any. But that simply is not how it works.

Consider the Royal Order of Jesters. Several years ago, the FBI sting against the group sent several people to jail for sex crimes, including a federal judge. Other Jesters from around the country came out and began spilling the beans.

What did the Grand Lodges do with "masonic jurisprudence"? Nothing. The 51 US Grand Lodges swept it all under the rug, with several forbidding Masons in good standing to comment on it in public.

Why? Because most of the US grand line officers are Jesters. The local Jester courts usually issue invitations to grand line officers if they are not already members. And the ones who are not jesters have not had the courage to speak out against it.

Do you follow Masonic blogs? Masonic Leaks is a good one, as well as Masonic Crusader. There are other blogs as well, ran by Masons who are still in good standing, but who feel they have a duty to expose all the corruption that's going on in the grand lodges. I assure you that it's not all rainbows and unicorns, and Masonic "jurisprudence" is based on politics, not justice.

P.S.

I can't respond to personal messages yet, I haven't been a member here long enough. Will respond when I can!

reply to post by thelonious2


I am currently master of my lodge. I have been in for 7 years and started at Steward and moved my way through the chairs. I have not been active in the Grand lodge at all. I spend my time with my lodge duties and with the Scottish Rite. I know that masonry is made up of men. Men who can and do have flaws. I recognize that no system is perfect and there is nothing in freemasonry to fix it so everyone get's a free ride on a unicorn. And if I looked at masonry from a cynical point of view, I assure you I could find many faults.

I am reminded of a story. A young boy was playing ball near an old man sitting in a chair on a porch. A car drove up and the people in the car asked the old man if this was a clean town with nice people in it. He replied "Yes, it is." and the car drove off. Then another car drove up and the old man was asked it this town was dirty and full of mean people. The old man said "Yes, I suppose so." The car drove off. The little boy went to the old man and asked him why he told the two cars two different things. the old man said "son, you will find that in life people generally find exactly what they are looking for."

I chose to look for the brighter side and not let the bad side bring me down. Life is too short to be cynical. I can be that guy when I am old and cranky. Like Augustusmasonicus.

Originally posted by KSigMason

Originally posted by InhaleExhale
...unfortunately no guides on sacrificing newborns to Moloch or Baphomet.

You learn that much later.

reply to post by thelonious2

 

Like I said to you before on DI, you're experience is not indicative of all Masonry in the US.

Ah! Figures! I take it someone tried to stir the pot and didn't get as much attention as desired? So why not try the same stunt in a different forum? Figures!

Fitz

Originally posted by network dude
Men who can and do have flaws. I recognize that no system is perfect and there is nothing in freemasonry to fix it so everyone get's a free ride on a unicorn. And if I looked at masonry from a cynical point of view, I assure you I could find many faults.

I'm not talking about human flaws that we all share. I'm talking about a secret society that's involved in human trafficking and child prostitution, and that this society is in control of Masonic grand lodges.

I used to think pretty much like you: all organizations have bad apples, and so on. So I taught myself to ignore one thing. Then another. Then another. It's happened to all of us who are Masons or who are former Masons. Next thing you know, we find we're ignoring pretty much everything, and don't have a good reason to do so.

The Masonic system is corrupt. There are many good people involved in Masonry, but they are not going to change the corruption. It's what Masonry inherently is.

I'll ask you a rhetorical question. You don't have to answer, just think about it. At what point did you decide it's ok to take an oath based on murder? At what point did you become comfortable obligating others? Constant Masonic exposure to these things dull our senses, and after a while, they become routine without really thinking about them.

You've been a Mason for 7 years. If someone told you 8 years ago that they could help make you a better man, but first you'd have to swear on penalty of death to tell no secrets and obey their authority, what would you have said? Is that really the way to begin the process of making a good man better?

reply to post by thelonious2
We have been making promises since we were little children, and always the bloody promise must be made before divulging the secret. "Cross my heart and hope to die, stick a needle in my eye". Really, I believe that you are making too much from such a minor point. Just as when we were children, those who transgress are not put to the punishment that they had sworn to.

reply to post by thelonious2
A candidate is brought from darkenss to light regarding the secrets of Freemasonry, and in this sense every candidate recieves the light which was sought in a Lodge. That is the modes of recognition, and other Masonic protocols that can't really be learned outside of a Lodge or the relationship with one's mentor. You yourself have stated that you learn the words of the catechism by heart as did all others who have gone this way before. Even though these words are available on the internet, learning to recall and recite them is something not easily done by those who aren't Masons.

Originally posted by no1smootha
reply to post by thelonious2

 

We have been making promises since we were little children, and always the bloody promise must be made before divulging the secret. "Cross my heart and hope to die, stick a needle in my eye". Really, I believe that you are making too much from such a minor point. Just as when we were children, those who transgress are not put to the punishment that they had sworn to.

I agree completely. And there's nothing more childish than a blindfolded grown man wearing pajamas and kneeling at an altar surrounded by guys in suits wearing aprons, while swearing to have his throat cut across and tongue torn out if he says Boaz.

Masonry doesn't make good men better, but it sure can contribute to making them goofy.

Originally posted by thelonious2
Masonry doesn't make good men better, but it sure can contribute to making them goofy.

I had never participated in anything charity related until I joined the Masons. I think that if it did not make me better than it at least helped me make someone else's life better.

I never regretted joining and in actuality, I wished I joined sooner.

reply to post by thelonious2

You're as much a ex-Mason as I am a former cheerleader (which is to say never been one in case I wasn't being clear enough). That you've trolled the same story at the Icke forum says that you didn't get the attention and validation you evidently crave. Your posturing bears all the hallmarks of a Google-besotted anti-Mason with a grudge
No need to bother further

Fitz

reply to post by thelonious2

I take many things personal as many tend to believe that what a small % does is indicative of how the entire Fraternity operates. Like I've said many times, just because there are few bad apples, you don't burn down the orchard.

NOTE TO KSIG: I received your email, but cannot yet respond to it because I haven't been a member here long enough. As soon as I can, I'll answer.

No worries.

Originally posted by thelonious2
Why? Because most of the US grand line officers are Jesters.

Do you have proof of this?

reply to post by thelonious2

It's not the system that gets corrupted, but the guys that could run it. You have a jaded, pessemistic view so everything with Freemasonry to you is half-empty.

I'm a realist:



Our oaths are not based on murder, our oaths are based on keeping your word.

reply to post by no1smootha

He has tunnel vision.

reply to post by thelonious2

People need a little humility in their life, some apparently more than others.

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
reply to post by thelonious2

 

You're as much a ex-Mason as I am a former cheerleader (which is to say never been one in case I wasn't being clear enough). That you've trolled the same story at the Icke forum says that you didn't get the attention and validation you evidently crave. Your posturing bears all the hallmarks of a Google-besotted anti-Mason with a grudge
No need to bother further

Fitz

Typical bait and switch by a Masonic apologist. Ignore the issue and attack the character of the critic of Masonry.

This is a perfect example of how Masonry "makes good men better".

reply to post by thelonious2
Have you demonstrated that you are a Mason to a Brother by PM? Then if you are as you say, a Freemason, you know that we don't merely accept that one is by their word alone. That investigation is done privately, I don't know what history you have with the other Brethren at DI, but I assume that you didn't provide evidence of your claim to be a Mason or else they would have accepted you as such.

It is not a bait and switch if part of your claim is that you have knowledge that others don't by virtue of you twenty years experience in Freemasonry without proving to those of us who are Freemasons that you are in fact a Mason.