Is This Officer Over Stepping His Bounds: Cop Lays out a Soldier

reply to post by Agarta


So, I've watched this video numerous times and spoken to some our Local LEO's who watched the video as well. This kid clearly had a poor attitude and and clearly stepped to the officer and clearly interfered with his ability and attempt to control the situation. THAT will get you put down and cuffed everytime.
"Once somebody squares up and takes an aggressive stance, they are presenting a threat. The guy was being aggressive and combative from the start further showing he was going to be a problem. He could have been arrested but the officer felt like they were able to resolve that behavior issue without an arrest, which it appeared that they did."
"Some people hate us no matter what we do."
"We don't have them every day, but its often. The main thing in situations like this is that you have to assert control immediately. If you don't, a guy like this will escalate his behavior until a fight starts. You quickly assert your control over the situation which de-escalates it and then if the problem is resolved go back to treating him like a normal person, which they did."
The above quotes are the responses of 10yr+ veterans of Law enforcement. I agree with them IN THIS CASE. I normally find myself on the victims side but not this time.

reply to post by overseer1136


Are you for real? We seem to be forgetting one very small detail here. Who exactly WAS the victim here? I would, without a doubt ,agree that the young man's actions were not exemplary, but to say that he initiated the aggression is total bull and you know it. The fact that the officer in question felt challenged by the young man's assertion that HIS time meant little to nothing to the officers, is what brought the aggression into the equation. The officer CLEARLY, stepped forward to show the complainant that he was in charge. Was this the LEO's job, to show HIS power? Or was his job to answer a complaint by a wronged citizen?

reply to post by ajay59


Look, I know that I won't win any friends by saying this but LEO's answer calls all day and many calls involve upset people. Public Servants are not public slaves and there for you to abuse. They answer calls where things have already gotten out of hand. The officer did step closer but did not "Step" to the kid. The kid however did "Step" to the officer in a confrontational way and said "Know who you're talkin to Bro". That is out of control behaviour. LEO's are definitely trained to assert physical force in this situation. Once they arrive on scene they HAVE to be in charge. Any thing that goes wrong falls on their heads from a legal standpoint.

You asked "Was this the LEO's job, to show HIS power?". The answer is yes unfortunately.

I have personally been wronged by LEO's when I was younger and believe me when I say that I have no love for the most of them. The ones I know are part of my group and they do not believe in being brutal but once they saw the video they were for this Officers actions hands down.

The fact that this video was sent to the tv station for investigation leads them to think that their may be something more to this particular officer and why would it be his cam recording that got sent out. But thats just a possible conspiracy

This is just my opinion and it shouldn't get you riled up as you have opinions that I have to take with a grain of salt and be an adult about it

reply to post by overseer1136

The kid however did "Step" to the officer in a confrontational way and said "Know who you're talkin to Bro". That is out of control behaviour. LEO's are definitely trained to assert physical force in this situation.

Are you saying that the LEO was justifiable in using physical force to counter WORDS spoken to him? One can only hope that one day you face an angry LEO and get some "sense" knocked into you!

Originally posted by overseer1136
Look, I know that I won't win any friends by saying this but LEO's answer calls all day and many calls involve upset people. Public Servants are not public slaves and there for you to abuse. They answer calls where things have already gotten out of hand.

Really, they are paid to mitigate tension not instigate it because they have an ego problem. No one wants the "officer" to be a punching bag - but honestly since third grade I've known people's words only have power over me if I allow it.

I am a Special Forces Officer - I am pretty sure I can win my share of bar fights (It is for fear I'll go into muscle memory mode and really hurt someone and thus lose my freedom that I don't react.) but in every potential situation I have diffused it with quick self depreciating humor and reducing the tension with an offer of contrition even if I know that I did zero wrong and the dude is just a dick looking for a fight.

I'll say anything to avoid a fight - I don't care what it takes. It’s not worth it.

Originally posted by overseer1136
The officer did step closer but did not "Step" to the kid. The kid however did "Step" to the officer in a confrontational way and said "Know who you're talkin to Bro". That is out of control behaviour.

Actually, that is exactly the reaction I would expect if I were the responding officer and took 45 minutes to get there. The guy has just been kicked to the curb, he is homeless and doesn’t have much to lose - why ratchet up the tension with a show of testosterone... The officer should know better.

Originally posted by overseer1136
LEO's are definitely trained to assert physical force in this situation. Once they arrive on scene they HAVE to be in charge.

Firm fair positive leadership is the way to be in charge - if you have to resort to physical force you are not "in-charge" of anything.

Originally posted by overseer1136
Any thing that goes wrong falls on their heads from a legal standpoint.

Right, so we take a situation that could have been handled with words and made it physical and it is 100% the "officer's" fault.

Originally posted by overseer1136
You asked "Was this the LEO's job, to show HIS power?". The answer is yes unfortunately.

There is a time for that and it is not when there are two "officers" and one person to control and especially when the person is the complainant. In a situation where the "officer" is alone and there is a group and a guy makes an ass of himself - sure letting it get out of hand is not good. This one was two to one "officers".

Originally posted by overseer1136
The ones I know are part of my group and they do not believe in being brutal but once they saw the video they were for this Officers actions hands down.

I'm sure they did and that is a sad testament to poor officer training nowadays.

reply to post by ajay59


Now that's just the most ignorant thing. Hoping that I get some sense knocked into me. First, I would never put myself in the position to get some sense knocked into me by a LEO. I know how to speak to people and express my dissatisfaction without taking an aggressive stance. If you want to knock some sense into me then that's cool too.
I have had many many many interactions with Law Enforcement and twice they came to talk to me specifically yet I have never been dropped, dragged, kicked, punched, or anything. Of course I never got aggressive with them either. They have a job to do and when you make that hard for them they take it personally. You want to demonize LEO's as out of control d-bags who get their kicks off of beating people up but that is not true.
If this kid was any kind of soldier then he would have 1. Shown respect for the authority that he requested to come help resolve the situation. 2. Acted in a manner befitting a soldier of the US Army.
If this kid was in my company and I saw the video I would recommend him for an Article 15 via a counseling statement.
So yeah.

reply to post by Golf66


Well Sir, First let me say that its nice to meet you. I appreciate your input 100%.
1. Firm, Fair, and Positive leadership works in a unit environment but not so much on the street.
2. As a SFO would you handle verbal abuse and insubordination with words or would you just call the MP's to come and take the soldier to the brig? I'm guessing the MP's and the Brig. Do you think the MP's would use words or would they use physical force?

Any way's I appreciate you input.

Sua Sponte

reply to post by overseer1136


Of course LEO's will side with the cop here. Come on now.

The cop in the video is the one who takes an aggressive stance. He is the one who steps up. The kids attitude, while poor, is not legal grounds for a beatdown.

This cop WANTED to take someone down. He got his wish.

Originally posted by overseer1136
Well Sir, First let me say that it’s nice to meet you. I appreciate your input 100%.
1. Firm, Fair, and Positive leadership works in a unit environment but not so much on the street.

It does and in places much more dangerous than a US street. I am not talking about dealing with another Soldier as an Officer I am talking about dealing with a civilian down range in harm’s way. i.e. A woman whose house has just been obliterated by an Apache and her husband killed because the Taliban fighters chose to take refuge there.

Perhaps a man whose only earthly possessions (a herd of 5 milk goats) has lost them to errant fire from either the insurgents or US forces (to him it doesn't matter much which) and most certainly the Taliban isn't going to be the one's offering some form of compensation. In this case we paid like $1000.00 for five skinny ass milk goats. They were later determined (by the medic) to have been killed by AK rounds so not even ours. Not that he autopsied them we just removed them and butchered them for the grill at the compound.

Walking into a village that has just been strafed by an AH64 because Taliban fighters holed up in their grain storage area.

All of these are true stories that I faced as an SF Team leader in Afghanistan.

These people are pissed, their lives are in ruins and sometimes it was done by our forces, not always but sometimes. Yet my mission is to make things right to enforce the peace and to keep the situation from creating yet more insurgents.

How did I do it. Well I can assure you I didn't go in and start asserting my authority on people who were already in distress.

Trust me there was a man with an AK behind almost every window when we went in there. When the Elder got in my face screaming about his losses and waving a handgun around I could have face planted him and proceeded to go house to house guns in everyone’s faces taking every man between 14 and 60 and zip cuffing, hooding them and sitting them on the street, taking all their firearms (what they have to protect themselves from the Taliban) and ultimately their self respect and dignity.

After all I was in charge of the province. I was the only law really who is to stop me?

It would have been a lot safer for my team for sure - but I would have failed at my mission which was to mitigate tension not escalate it.

I'd go in calmly with an overwatch element ask to speak with the Elder, apologize (even while he was yelling and sometimes crying) even when it was not our fault - then try and explain the problem.

Explain that the Taliban were the problem and how they should call me when they show up and start making demands and wanting shelter. Then I'd offer him 10 times what the losses were worth in money and have my medic treat the wounded, give them medicine make arrangements to come back with a Doctor for surgery if necessary, pass out some food and radios and shoes and clothes and blankets...etc.

After that he'd usually tell me where a local cell was hidden or where they had a cache if he felt I could do as I promised and protect them. I'd earn their trust after about three visits. They’d give me some names and descriptions of insurgents perhaps, sometimes we'd find out it was a petty land grievance or revenge thing sometimes not. This is why I didn’t act on any of the crap with posturing and “showing my authority” going in guns blazing.

One must deal firmly and fairly with people who are in distress and feel they have been wronged - not shove them around till they accept your authority.

I guarantee you me and my team were in more danger than the stupid LEO was in an apartment complex in America. We were ready to act but only if absolutely necessary. Not preemptively.

If that cop is so afraid that he feels he must preemptively act with violence to heated words for fear he won't maintain the upper hand he needs to find another line of work.

He was being a bully plain and simple...

Originally posted by overseer1136
2. As a SFO would you handle verbal abuse and insubordination with words or would you just call the MP's to come and take the soldier to the brig? I'm guessing the MP's and the Brig. Do you think the MP's would use words or would they use physical force?

Actually, in SF it’s mostly first names, beards and a mix of civilian hats, uniforms and clothing. Without fail at times there is always yelling at each other. I have had subordinates yell at me before – most times afterwards I’d realize I deserved it having made some kind of error or ass of myself. Best to just let them vent sometimes they are yelling more about the system than at the person.

In 24 years I have never ever seen an MP called for insubordination in any unit - if it gets that far before someone walks away the NCO/Officer is pretty much unfit for leadership.