The Free Will Conspiracy of the Bible

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by windword

 

I do think that the God of the Old Testament was a liar.

Or, the OT speaks of how God is according to man.

Do you believe that the OT God is a made up character, with no reality to it. There was no burning bush or pillar of fire, or stone tablets and laws delivered by a deity?

Originally posted by Nightaudit
reply to post by windword

 

Even within the realm of theology this doesn´t make sense. God created the whole thing, he wouldn´t have created something he didn´t want to create.

You just said that god made a mistake, it doesn´t work that way.

What is it that doesn't make sense to you? What mistake did I accuse God of making?

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by randyvs

 

Can I ID the perp? LOL

Perhaps the God of the OT is an imposter? Maybe much of the Bible was penned by the ruler of the world...........Dum dum dum dum..........SATAN?

Actually, throughout history there have been groups, including some early "Christian" groups who believed just that. If I'm not mistaken the original gnostics believed that the creator of this world (the old testament god) was not THE "ultimate" god... but rather an angry, jealous, kind of infantile minor-deity.

Some early and modern "fringe" groups also equate the figure of Christ with Lucifer.

"Christianity" is a very wide umbrella, with a range of beliefs far more varied than some realize.

reply to post by windword

Do you believe that the OT God is a made up character, with no reality to it. There was no burning bush or pillar of fire, or stone tablets and laws delivered by a deity?

From a high level overview, the events happened, but there was no fire. It was pure light, and it looked like fire. Just like when the bible speaks of the streets in heaven are made of gold, it is not gold, but pure light.

We are given how man perceived the events, passed down to others.

Mankind alone has free will. The angels nor the demons have it. We alone can choose. Sure, God may have went a little over the top trying to reach us at times, but it is for our own good.

reply to post by iwilliam


Yes, excellent observation! I have been quite intrigued by the gnostic texts of the Demiurge and the Archons.

[Yaldabaoth] became strong and created for himself other aeons with a flame of luminous fire which (still) exists now. And he joined with his madness which is in him and begot authorities for himself. The name of the first one is Athoth, whom the generations call [...]. The second one is Harmas, who [is the eye] of envy. The third one is Kalila-Oumbri. The fourth one is Yabel. The fifth one is Adonaiou, who is called Sabaoth. The sixth one is Cain, whom the generation of men call the sun. The seventh is Abel. the eighth is Abrisene. The ninth is Yobel. The tenth is Armoupieel. The eleventh is Malcheir-Adonein. The twelfth is Belias, who is over the depth of Hades.

This is only a single list of archons within the Apocryphon, and The Hypostasis of the Archons and On the Origin of the World (all found in the Nag Hammadi Codex), give a similar story and different archonic names, though Yaldabaoth remains more or less the same, only varying in his degrees of evil and insanity.
jeffreyskupperman.com...

reply to post by jhill76


It's not just the OT...since the Bible was written by man thus the Bible is doing the same thing.

I am not religious but I am spiritual. There is one thing that I cannot understand.

The Bible and the New Testament are vastly different and reflect the level of Man's development as well as changing religious text to suit the times.

There is nothing in either book that a person who had never seen or even heard of eather religious texts could not think of themselves. Why is it then that people feel that it must have took a GOD to influence Man to write it?

Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity

There is nothing in either book that a person who had never seen or even heard of eather religious texts could not think of themselves.

This is true. But, many here require of a book to lead them.

reply to post by jhill76


Well that concept certainly disturbs me.

It would mean that people are so incapable of doing the right thing for no other reason than to want to treat their fellow man as they wish to be treated that they need a book that preaches a carrot and stick concept.

People really do have a lot to learn especially the self proclaimed rightious.

Split Infinity

reply to post by windword


Okay, so Winword does believe in A God ? He just doesn't believe the Bible or that the God described there in is God. Would this be fair Win ? I'm playing twenty two questions here, could you just state what you do believe ?
Just once for the record.

I'm hoping to get to something that is more relevant to the topic.

reply to post by randyvs


Randy, Ive never been coy with you about my beliefs. I've always stated that I believe in a God, but that the OT God is not him.

I believe that the universe and all the dimensions and mysteries that exist are God's body, all that is spirit is God's mind. I believe in a spiritual hierachy.

Are you familiar with the Nag Hammadi gnostic creation texts that describes the evil demiurge and how this evil came to be in the physical world? I kinda agree with them.

Here's link that describes the myth. gnosis.org...

reply to post by windword

Are you familiar with the Nag Hammadi gnostic creation texts that describes the evil demiurge and how this evil came to be in the physical world? I kinda agree with them.

Is this the account of how one from above early on created a separate creation, that is what we would call evil today?

reply to post by jhill76


Yes, kinda. Here's a little bit on the shadow:

How well it suits all men, on the subject of chaos, to say that it is a kind of darkness! But in fact it comes from a shadow, which has been called by the name 'darkness'. And the shadow comes from a product that has existed since the beginning. It is, moreover, clear that it existed before chaos came into being, and that the latter is posterior to the first product. Let us therefore concern ourselves with the facts of the matter; and furthermore, with the first product, from which chaos was projected.

After the natural structure of the immortal beings had completely developed out of the infinite, a likeness then emanated from Pistis (Faith); it is called Sophia (Wisdom). It exercised volition and became a product resembling the primeval light. And immediately her will manifested itself as a likeness of heaven, having an unimaginable magnitude; it was between the immortal beings and those things that came into being after them, like [...]: she (Sophia) functioned as a veil dividing mankind from the things above.

There's more here: gnosis.org...

reply to post by SplitInfinity

There is one thing that I cannot understand.

The Bible and the New Testament are vastly different and reflect the level of Man's development as well as changing religious text to suit the times.

The fact that you think that they are "vastly different" is your perception. You are of earthly man, perceiving as man. You are not granted understanding of spiritual matters from Our Heavenly Father because you do not seek understanding and wisdom from Him. As Adam, you may desire to become like God. It's may be attractive to you. You may desire it. It is the inequity within you and for that you may receive the destroyer. It is the very inequity behind Adam's fall and the very reason that Jesus gave us the pattern to overcome. Age by age God has been dealing with rebellious mankind, a mankind created in His Image and Likeness but which chooses the inequity of Adam instead of their Creator.

In your "spiritual, but not religious" research, I'm sure that you are familiar with the Kabahallists, Freemason, Shi'ite, and Hindu exaltation of the "primordial man" - Adam. I'm sure that you are aware of their burning desire to transcend into that state. See, they worship the one mistranslated as 'Lucifer' for so many years. They worship the fallen one....The one who threw all of us into his sin. And that they reject the very Saviour who is the saving right arm of Our Creator. Why? They have Adam's desires - to become like the Most High.

Our Creator is ever so clear - we ARE the created. It is His order. It is His Universe. It is His World. There is no room for the created who refuse to behold it's beauty, it's design, it's marvels and there is no room for those who like Adam think that they are "god". There is no place for the proud and haughty - none. The proud and haughty do not love good, do not love justice, do not love right and above all, do not love Him because He is all of those things.. Evil rejects goodness. It's why they stay in darkness.

The fact is, the Old and New Testaments are the same. It is only by the teaching of God that one can come to start to understand. Everything is there - every bit of wisdom and understanding for those who love truth. Every time that you read a passage something new is revealed. Every single paragraph gets seen in a slightly new light. There is what He wants His children to understand. And His children pray to Him as the old Adam is slowly stripped away, as the mind and heart grow in enlightenment. You want to assign "religiosity" to scriptire, but yet refuse to differentiate what beastly men do with man-made churches and what your Heavenly Father calls religion - to take care of the fatherless and the orphans - the oppressed and the helpless in the world. And if there's one promise that you can take to the bank - the saints power will be broken but the gates of hell will never prevail against His Kingdom.

reply to post by WhoKnows100


You are using what is taught to you by your religion to justify your words as facts...they cannot be proven so. It would thrill me to know end if it could be proven that a merciful GOD existed...but so far it has not been proven.

The level of your reponse shows me that deep inside you have doubts of your own but don't assume just because I seek proof that I am somehow fallen to some make believe evil force.

I deal with evidence...you have provided none.

Split Infinity

reply to post by windword


You are an even bigger hypocrite than I am.

That's pretty bad Win. Sounds like a salad of Gnostic Pantheism with a few of your own cherries picked and tossed
in along the way. Then you even make reference to it being a myth ?

Here's link that describes the myth.

Is not this conspiracy perceived from a biased interpretation of only those sacred writings that have only to do with Christianity ?

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by windword

 

You are an even bigger hypocrite than I am.

That's pretty bad Win. Sounds like a salad of Gnostic Pantheism with a few of your own cherries picked and tossed
in along the way. Then you even make reference to it being a myth ?

Here's link that describes the myth.

Is not this conspiracy perceived from a biased interpretation of only those sacred writings that have only to do with Christianity ?

edit on 10-1-2013 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

Of course it's a myth! I only use it to explain the chaos, the evil, the shadow darkness that is behind the conspiracy to trick mankind into surrendering the free will that he never had, like you asked!

The conspiracy has to have come before Paul's writings and yet extend through to the Catholic/Protestant churches.

I don't take it as a true picture of the creation of the universe. But, as I said earlier, I believe in a spiritual hierarchy, so, yes I am somewhat pantheonistic.

Originally posted by iwilliam

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by randyvs

 

Can I ID the perp? LOL

Perhaps the God of the OT is an imposter? Maybe much of the Bible was penned by the ruler of the world...........Dum dum dum dum..........SATAN?

Actually, throughout history there have been groups, including some early "Christian" groups who believed just that. If I'm not mistaken the original gnostics believed that the creator of this world (the old testament god) was not THE "ultimate" god... but rather an angry, jealous, kind of infantile minor-deity.

Some early and modern "fringe" groups also equate the figure of Christ with Lucifer.

"Christianity" is a very wide umbrella, with a range of beliefs far more varied than some realize.

That would be the Gnostics. And that is still believed. If you read in the Gnostic texts there are passages that talk about the OT god being chastised by GOD when he states he is the greatest and only god and forgetting that GOD made him as well.

reply to post by windword


Alright that's all good then. I see better where you're coming from. And you know the hypocrite remark was just a joke. So nothing further your honor.

reply to post by randyvs


Yeah! I wouldn't touch that remark with 12 foot poll!